Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C (or
about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10 minutes per
bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow; but is
diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide to
diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper if I
don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse,
2. The water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

The Troll is back. Please do not feed the troll.

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:11:13 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C (or
about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10 minutes per
bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow; but is
diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide to
diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper if I
don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse,
2. The water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

Diffusion is slow*. You can calculate it. There is probably some
thermally driven currents in water that will mix things faster.
To get an idea of speed put a drop of food coloring into water.

George H.
(*I'm not sure about water, but I mixed up my own tanks
of gas for a CO2 laser and it took weeks to diffuse...
surprised the hell out of me.)

wrote on 9/8/2017 8:58 AM:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:11:13 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C (or
about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10 minutes per
bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow; but is
diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide to
diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper if I
don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse,
2. The water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

Diffusion is slow*. You can calculate it. There is probably some
thermally driven currents in water that will mix things faster.
To get an idea of speed put a drop of food coloring into water.

George H.
(*I'm not sure about water, but I mixed up my own tanks
of gas for a CO2 laser and it took weeks to diffuse...
surprised the hell out of me.)

Yes, it can be slow compared to many uses of the word "slow". I've brewed
tea in glass and watched the tea diffuse. Since the water is hot the
diffusion is faster and the cooling causes some current, so you can actually
watch the tea colored water fall out of the tea bag. At 3 °C diffusion will
be much slower. Stirring mixes up the water to bring fresh to the surface.
Better yet is to push the gas through the water as tiny bubbles which is
what they do at a soda fountain. Nearly instantaneous diffusion.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:11:09 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C (or
about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10 minutes per
bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow; but is
diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide to
diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper if I
don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse,
2. The water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?
I can't tell you how fast it will diffuse if the gas is just exposed
to the one surface of the liquid when the container is upright. But I
can tell you that gentle agitation will greatly shorten the time for
the gas to dissolve into the liquid. A friend of mine, who owns a
brewery, told me how he carbonates beer sometimes in a "Corny" keg.
These are the small diameter kegs seen at portable soda fountains. The
ones he carbonates at home are the 5 gallon size. He fills 'em with
the liquid, pressurizes 'em, then lays them on the floor and rolls
them back and forth for about 1/2 hour while watching TV.
Eric

In article , says...

Yes, it can be slow compared to many uses of the word "slow". I've
brewed
tea in glass and watched the tea diffuse. Since the water is hot the
diffusion is faster and the cooling causes some current, so you can actually
watch the tea colored water fall out of the tea bag. At 3 °C diffusion will
be much slower. Stirring mixes up the water to bring fresh to the surface.
Better yet is to push the gas through the water as tiny bubbles which is
what they do at a soda fountain. Nearly instantaneous diffusion.

I think a major area where agitation makes a big difference is in the
absorption of CO2 in sea water. O2 too, for that matter!

Mike.

Mike Coon wrote on 9/8/2017 5:02 PM:
In article , says...

Yes, it can be slow compared to many uses of the word "slow". I've
brewed
tea in glass and watched the tea diffuse. Since the water is hot the
diffusion is faster and the cooling causes some current, so you can actually
watch the tea colored water fall out of the tea bag. At 3 °C diffusion will
be much slower. Stirring mixes up the water to bring fresh to the surface.
Better yet is to push the gas through the water as tiny bubbles which is
what they do at a soda fountain. Nearly instantaneous diffusion.

I think a major area where agitation makes a big difference is in the
absorption of CO2 in sea water. O2 too, for that matter!

The agitation helps through the creation of tiny bubbles greatly increasing
the surface area. If you think about it the agitation itself would do
nothing. Shake a soda bottle that is 100% full and it won't change the
pressure appreciably. Shake a soda bottle that has some air space and the
increase in pressure from the CO2 coming out of solution will be large.

Well... to be honest, I've never actually tried this. It would be worth an
experiment if I had any soda on hand. I have heard of a simple drop causing
a soda bottle to explode. Perhaps that is from both the shock to the bottle
and an increase in pressure from released CO2. To be sure the soda bottle
would need to be 100% full. Shake vigorously or even drop it on the floor
and then open it... well... or maybe a pressure gauge can be attached... lol

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

On 9/7/2017 5:11 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C
(or about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10
minutes per bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow;
but is diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide
to diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper
if I don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse, 2. The
water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.
I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

I have read that that using a micro aerator introducing the CO2 in very
small bubbles at the bottom of the receiving container will increwase
the rate of diffusion into the water. Shaking or splashing the water to
increase CO2/H2O contact also helps. With my corny kegs, I can hear the
gas flow in when I shake the top of the keg back and forth. Stop
shaking, and the gas flow quickly tapers down to very slow.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:11:09 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.

Then do some remedial reading on the topic.
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
There should be sufficient theory and numbers in the article to
provide whatever it is you're asking.

Ummmm... what problem are you trying to solve? I probably don't have
an answer, but I'm curious.

Do you?

Nope. You'll get no advice from me unless you're a masochist and into
Learn By Destroying(tm).

I built my own carbonation contraption from junk in about 1973. I did
just about everything wrong, hit all the pitfalls, and didn't listen
to anyones advice. My best fizz water had a carbonic acid taste
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid
and lacerated my tongue because I used too much pressure. I also
tried to use room temperature water, into which CO2 refuses to
diffuse, or if I'm lucky, takes a few days with agitation. I was
fortunate and didn't produce a simulated CO2 powered water rocket, but
did manage to build credible CO2/water sprayer which might make a
usable fire extinguisher.

In 1973 the 2L bottle was just becoming available in the stores. I
had just returned from Israel, where the only economical way to buy
Coca Cola was in 2L bottles. They were everywhere. When I returned
to the USA, I temporarily switched from Coca Cola to Pepsi which was
the only drink at the time available in 2L bottles. Eventually, I
accumulated a supply of 2L bottles (which barely fit in the tiny
refrigerators of the day).

One of my few successes was to copy the common seltzer bottle and
install a siphon tube in the 2 liter PET bottle. The siphon tube
allowed me to bubble agitate the liquid from the bottom of the bottle,
thus dramatically increasing the surface area of the water, and
therefore also increasing the CO2 diffusion rate. Filling the bottle
horizontally, with a bent siphon tube, was even better. However, I
made a fundamental mistake. I had not purged the air from the top of
the 2L bottle before pressurizing, resulting in a fizzy mix of
compressed air and CO2 in carbonic acid. It's easy to tell if you've
made this mistake because the resulting fizz water tastes and smells
horrible. I also attached a gas flow meter and aquarium bubble
counter to check the CO2 flow. The flow meter range was too high and
barely moved the ball. The bubble counter range was too low causing
the initial blast of CO2 to empty the glass vial. Can't win.

Ok, enough anecdotes. Follow the instructions in the above URL or at
least double check your existing setup to see what you've missed. Good
luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Next time, please do not feed the troll.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Next time, please do not feed the troll.

But, but, but, what should I do for entertainment value? The best I
can find in sci.electronics.repair is punching reset on a refrigerator
and painting stripes on resistors. Lacking anything more interesting,
feeding an off topic carbonation question will keep me entertained and
out of trouble for at least for a few days.

There once was a usenet troll.
Who thought he was on a roll.
He often did send,
some post without end,
while waiting for bells that toll.

We return you now to whatever you should be doing.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
says...

We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

To fulfil some higher purpose? Now there's a whole new topic for debate
(if I could be bothered...)!

Mike.

On 9/7/2017 5:11 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C
(or about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10
minutes per bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow;
but is diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide
to diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper
if I don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse, 2. The
water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.
I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

Either way, its nothing that a chemistry book can't fix. (They don't actually bite)

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 08:51:15 +0100, Mike Coon
wrote:

In article ,
says...
We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

To fulfil some higher purpose? Now there's a whole new topic for debate
(if I could be bothered...)!
Mike.

Of course. There is no higher purpose than to delay the inevitable
demise of civilization from being buried in the debris left by
unrepaired products. Post apocolyptic movies feature mountains of
non-functional junk laying around for the actors to hide behind as
they shoot at each other. What higher purpose can there be than the
repair of everything civilization can produce so that the actors have
nothing to hide behind? Without repair, every product would come with
an expiration data after which it would self destruct. Without
repair, the landfills will overflow with dead devices. Without
repair, everyone would be forced to pay full list price as used,
refurbished, and reconditioned will cease to exist. As long as we
strive to repair, we can be certain that our efforts are for the
greater good of mankind, which will end in a utopian society where
nothing is wasted and everything lasts forever. No civilization has
yet repaired its way to greatness, but we could be the first.

https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 10:47:34 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 08:51:15 +0100, Mike Coon
wrote:

In article ,
says...
We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

To fulfil some higher purpose? Now there's a whole new topic for debate
(if I could be bothered...)!
Mike.

Of course. There is no higher purpose than to delay the inevitable
demise of civilization from being buried in the debris left by
unrepaired products. Post apocolyptic movies feature mountains of
non-functional junk laying around for the actors to hide behind as
they shoot at each other. What higher purpose can there be than the
repair of everything civilization can produce so that the actors have
nothing to hide behind? Without repair, every product would come with
an expiration data after which it would self destruct. Without
repair, the landfills will overflow with dead devices. Without
repair, everyone would be forced to pay full list price as used,
refurbished, and reconditioned will cease to exist. As long as we
strive to repair, we can be certain that our efforts are for the
greater good of mankind, which will end in a utopian society where
nothing is wasted and everything lasts forever. No civilization has
yet repaired its way to greatness, but we could be the first.

https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
arms race. I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc...ase-68457.html
When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker, I found that the
tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!
Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
failures.

George H.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

As far as the life of the planet is concerned, there is little we can do as individuals or as a species that will affect the planet in any material way. All we can do is hasten/impede the next whatisit that comes along following on our heels. But, follow it will despite all our efforts.

Charles Addams had a cartoon: Nuclear Holocaust - last two living creatures on earth (single-cell) look at each other deciding whether to start over or not. One says to the other: "Only, this time, no brains".

Keep in mind that the moment humans became involved with the survival of other humans, evolution (within the human species) effectively stopped dead in its tracks. Evolution has the singular goal to to produce *more*, not necessarily *better* exemplars of any given species - that being the singular definition of "fittest". "Units" that age past the ability to reproduce are impediments to 'more'. Therefore diseases relating to aging are irrelevant to the survival of the species. Diseases that affect reproduction in any negative way at all are impediments to survival. Habits that reduce reproduction are impediments to survival.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28, King James

The purpose of the human (any) species is to reproduce itself - per Evolution in any case. Again, evolution has ceased in any meaningful way. Like a shark, either a species improves (moves), or it dies. We are moribund, the only matter for discussion is how long it will take.

Finally, on a planetary scale, even that amount of time will be momentary.

Carpe Diem (Horace)

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 1:57:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 10:47:34 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 08:51:15 +0100, Mike Coon
wrote:

In article ,
says...
We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

To fulfil some higher purpose? Now there's a whole new topic for debate
(if I could be bothered...)!
Mike.

Of course. There is no higher purpose than to delay the inevitable
demise of civilization from being buried in the debris left by
unrepaired products. Post apocolyptic movies feature mountains of
non-functional junk laying around for the actors to hide behind as
they shoot at each other. What higher purpose can there be than the
repair of everything civilization can produce so that the actors have
nothing to hide behind? Without repair, every product would come with
an expiration data after which it would self destruct. Without
repair, the landfills will overflow with dead devices. Without
repair, everyone would be forced to pay full list price as used,
refurbished, and reconditioned will cease to exist. As long as we
strive to repair, we can be certain that our efforts are for the
greater good of mankind, which will end in a utopian society where
nothing is wasted and everything lasts forever. No civilization has
yet repaired its way to greatness, but we could be the first.

https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
arms race. I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc...ase-68457.html
When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker, I found that the
tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!
Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
failures.

George H.
Hey what happens if I take a drill to the plastic hole.
I bust the whole thing up, get the screw out,
and then need some longer 'nice' screw to put
it back together. It won't look as nice from the back.

If the plastic is thick enough I might make the hole
big enough to get the bit holder down it, without breaking.

I need some big jig, to hold things on my drill press.

George H.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
arms race.

What? You don't feel more secure with security screws in place? Just
think of all the bad things that can happen to the company if one of
their screws is not properly secured. Obviously, something must be
done to prevent screws from "accidentally" falling out.

I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc...ase-68457.html

I have two of the same kits. Far too many duplicate bits.

When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker,

Latest? I deduce that your coffee makers are exhibiting a rather
short half life. Have you considered buying something more durable?
Oh wait... I forgot that you can no longer buy quality appliances at
any price. Never mind.

I found that the
tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!

Yeah, that's a common problem. I have a few assorted long round shank
screwdrivers that have been modified on my bench grinder and Dremel
tool to fit various security screws. If I'm desperate, I'll cut off
the top, and braze it to a steel rod. If you're lazy, take a Dremel
cutoff disk and cut a notch in the base of the bit to fit an
screwdriver blade.

Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682

Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
failures.

As long as there is lime (calcium carbonate and oxide) dissolved in
your coffee water, you're going to have the problem. The trick is to
clean the coffee maker BEFORE it totally clogs and won't pass any
vinegar. Unless you like drinking distilled water (it tastes "flat")
or you buy a water softener, you're stuck with an occasional vinegar
flush.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:22:16 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

As far as the life of the planet is concerned, there is little we can do
as individuals or as a species that will affect the planet in any material
way. All we can do is hasten/impede the next whatisit that comes along
following on our heels. But, follow it will despite all our efforts.

Humans have been around for about 80,000 generations. That's not
really enough time for a whatisit to appear and take over.

I have no interest in saving the human race, which may be impossible.
My only interest is to slow down the trend towards non-repairable
products and filling the landfills with devices that can be repaired.
We may well meet our well deserved collective demise from our own
inventions, but at least with repairable products, the end might be
delayed somewhat.

The purpose of the human (any) species is to reproduce itself - per
Evolution in any case.

Keep it simple. Your purpose in life is to consume, pollute, and
over-populate. Failing to perform any of these assigned tasks is
severely punished by society. Once you understand that, the rest of
the puzzle falls into place without much effort.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 03:08:01 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Either way, its nothing that a chemistry book can't fix. (They don't actually bite)

Book? This is the 21st century. Today, we do web pages, blogs,
forums, wikis, YouTube tutorials, online courses, and online reading.
Books are an anachronism. I tried to read a reference book a few days
ago and couldn't find what I wanted. Then, I remembered that there
was a table of contents and an index, both of which proved to be
useless. I want my search tools, not a word list and pointers to
multiple pages. Used in the traditional manner, books can bite if you
can't find what you need. I suggest you modernize your suggestion and
offer something online instead.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 10:49:16 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
arms race.

What? You don't feel more secure with security screws in place? Just
think of all the bad things that can happen to the company if one of
their screws is not properly secured. Obviously, something must be
done to prevent screws from "accidentally" falling out.

I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc...ase-68457.html

I have two of the same kits. Far too many duplicate bits.

When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker,

Latest? I deduce that your coffee makers are exhibiting a rather
short half life. Have you considered buying something more durable?
Oh wait... I forgot that you can no longer buy quality appliances at
any price. Never mind.

I found that the
tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!

Yeah, that's a common problem. I have a few assorted long round shank
screwdrivers that have been modified on my bench grinder and Dremel
tool to fit various security screws. If I'm desperate, I'll cut off
the top, and braze it to a steel rod. If you're lazy, take a Dremel
cutoff disk and cut a notch in the base of the bit to fit an
screwdriver blade.
Oh, that's a good idea! I was thinking we/they need to market
a bit set that also has a hex shaped indentation on the back side
so that you could drive it with an Allen wrench.

Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682
Right, the arms race continues.

George H.

Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
failures.

As long as there is lime (calcium carbonate and oxide) dissolved in
your coffee water, you're going to have the problem. The trick is to
clean the coffee maker BEFORE it totally clogs and won't pass any
vinegar. Unless you like drinking distilled water (it tastes "flat")
or you buy a water softener, you're stuck with an occasional vinegar
flush.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 05:18:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 10:49:16 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Yeah, that's a common problem. I have a few assorted long round shank
screwdrivers that have been modified on my bench grinder and Dremel
tool to fit various security screws. If I'm desperate, I'll cut off
the top, and braze it to a steel rod. If you're lazy, take a Dremel
cutoff disk and cut a notch in the base of the bit to fit an
screwdriver blade.

Oh, that's a good idea! I was thinking we/they need to market
a bit set that also has a hex shaped indentation on the back side
so that you could drive it with an Allen wrench.

Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682

Right, the arms race continues.

In a previous life, I had to deal with security screws, which were
required by a few customers and creative spec writers. There is an
amazing amount of creativity possible.
https://www.google.com/search?q=security+screw+heads&source=lnms&tbm=isch
https://xkcd.com/1474/

I thought I was being clever when I specified these fasteners:
https://www.dhresource.com/600x600/f2/albu/g4/M01/1F/C0/rBVaEVekSsSADmOTAADlLkJHrKg618.jpg
but ran into problems when someone shipped the radio to an Arab
country.

Google gets my pure evil award for specifying fasteners that use a
friction driver on their Google-Mini server:
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/ethernet.jpg
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/screw.jpg
A screw extractor in the hole didn't work because the stainless steel
fasteners are hardened and it would slip. I would normally slot the
head with a Dremel cutoff tool, but the customer wanted everything
back to stock just in case Google would honor the warranty.
Eventually, they did after all the electrolytics started to bulge and
leak. I had to make a special tool, using a rubber bicycle inner tube
for friction, in order to remove the screws, after about 2 hrs of
trial, error, and swearing.

I won't mention Apple and their Pentalobe screw heads. I think that
the drivers were available on eBay before the iPhone 4 was released,
which probably inspired Apple to now glue its products together.

I also run into security screws on bicycles. I would hate to find
some of these odd pattern fasteners and not have a matching driver:
http://atomic22.com
http://www.torontocycles.com/Titanium_Security_Bolts.html


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
says...



In a previous life, I had to deal with security screws, which were
required by a few customers and creative spec writers. There is an
amazing amount of creativity possible.
https://www.google.com/search?q=security+screw+heads&source=lnms&tbm=isch
https://xkcd.com/1474/

I thought I was being clever when I specified these fasteners:
https://www.dhresource.com/600x600/f2/albu/g4/M01/1F/C0/rBVaEVekSsSADmOTAADlLkJHrKg618.jpg
but ran into problems when someone shipped the radio to an Arab
country.

Google gets my pure evil award for specifying fasteners that use a
friction driver on their Google-Mini server:
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/ethernet.jpg
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/screw.jpg
A screw extractor in the hole didn't work because the stainless steel
fasteners are hardened and it would slip. I would normally slot the
head with a Dremel cutoff tool, but the customer wanted everything
back to stock just in case Google would honor the warranty.
Eventually, they did after all the electrolytics started to bulge and
leak. I had to make a special tool, using a rubber bicycle inner tube
for friction, in order to remove the screws, after about 2 hrs of
trial, error, and swearing.

I won't mention Apple and their Pentalobe screw heads. I think that
the drivers were available on eBay before the iPhone 4 was released,
which probably inspired Apple to now glue its products together.

I also run into security screws on bicycles. I would hate to find
some of these odd pattern fasteners and not have a matching driver:
http://atomic22.com
http://www.torontocycles.com/Titanium_Security_Bolts.html


I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
driver would fit.

Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
stop anyone.

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:02:20 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
driver would fit.

Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
stop anyone.

Yep, that's pretty much the way things work. To protect the
environment from smog produced by chain saws, carburetors are to be
adjusted only by factory authorized experts, or by anyone with an eBay
account:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8pk-Screwdriver-Splined-Carb-Carburetor-Adjustment-Chainsaw-Tools-Kit-Repair-Set-/142506605139
I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Incidentally, I was just taking a break from chewing up some lumber
scrap with my nice new Stihl MS180 chain saw. The only user
accessible carburetor adjustment is the idle speed. No problem with a
new saw, but if I ever rebuild the carburetor, I'll surely need to
adjust the low and high speed screws.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:02:20 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
driver would fit.

Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
stop anyone.

Yep, that's pretty much the way things work. To protect the
environment from smog produced by chain saws, carburetors are to be
adjusted only by factory authorized experts, or by anyone with an eBay
account:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8pk-Screwdriver-Splined-Carb-Carburetor-Adjustment-Chainsaw-Tools-Kit-Repair-Set-/142506605139
I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Incidentally, I was just taking a break from chewing up some lumber
scrap with my nice new Stihl MS180 chain saw. The only user
accessible carburetor adjustment is the idle speed. No problem with a
new saw, but if I ever rebuild the carburetor, I'll surely need to
adjust the low and high speed screws.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I've got an old Stihl chainsaw. It's got two adjustment screws, I've
only tweaked the one. Dang nice tool!

George H.

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:20:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:02:20 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
driver would fit.

Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
stop anyone.

Yep, that's pretty much the way things work. To protect the
environment from smog produced by chain saws, carburetors are to be
adjusted only by factory authorized experts, or by anyone with an eBay
account:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8pk-Screwdriver-Splined-Carb-Carburetor-Adjustment-Chainsaw-Tools-Kit-Repair-Set-/142506605139
I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Incidentally, I was just taking a break from chewing up some lumber
scrap with my nice new Stihl MS180 chain saw. The only user
accessible carburetor adjustment is the idle speed. No problem with a
new saw, but if I ever rebuild the carburetor, I'll surely need to
adjust the low and high speed screws.
Greetings Jeff,
Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature? Several years
ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
wrists.
I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.
Eric

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
http://www.insideline.com
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
http://www.insideline.com
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.

George H.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:48:43 -0700, wrote:

Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature?

No. Mine is just the MS180 with no extras:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180/
There's also the MS180C-BE which has the Easy2Start and the "Quick
Chain Adjust" features:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180cbe/
I don't see the MS180C on the product list any more.

Several years
ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
wrists.

Good reason. I kinda wish I had that for a rather dumb reason. The
rear handle (the one with the trigger) is too small to fit my steel
toe shoes. There's no place to stand on the handle while starting.
The right side of the handle has a knuckle guard that will fit my
shoe, but that means I have to start it left handed. For now, I put a
length of 2x4 through the handle and stand on it when starting, but
that's going to get old rather quickly.

So far, I really like the MS180. It's very light and cuts fast. Power
is acceptable, but I'm having difficulties learning how to start it
properly. Maybe I should read the manual. I wonder if the Ez2Start
device can be added to the MS180.

This is my first Stihl saw. My others are a motley assortment of
Husquvarna, Homelite, McCullogh, junk, etc.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/index.html
I have about twice as many saws now.

I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.

In the "Homeowner" series:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms181cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms211cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms251cbe/
Plenty of others in other series. Just look for the C-E suffix.

The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

Yech. I do that a little differently. I have a spare bar oil cap
with a hose barb screwed and glued into the middle. I attach a vinyl
hose to the barb, with the other end to my air compressor. 30 psi
will usually be sufficient to blow out any sawdust and oil mix. That
happens if I store the saw for a few month, and the bar oil turns to
tar. You might look into trying a different brand of bar oil.

I still have about 1/4 cord of firewood from last year. The problem
is that it's all 18" long and my wood burner will only take 16".
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html
It's going to be a very noisy and tiring weekend.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:48:43 -0700, wrote:

Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature?

No. Mine is just the MS180 with no extras:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180/
There's also the MS180C-BE which has the Easy2Start and the "Quick
Chain Adjust" features:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180cbe/
I don't see the MS180C on the product list any more.

Several years
ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
wrists.

Good reason. I kinda wish I had that for a rather dumb reason. The
rear handle (the one with the trigger) is too small to fit my steel
toe shoes. There's no place to stand on the handle while starting.
The right side of the handle has a knuckle guard that will fit my
shoe, but that means I have to start it left handed. For now, I put a
length of 2x4 through the handle and stand on it when starting, but
that's going to get old rather quickly.

So far, I really like the MS180. It's very light and cuts fast. Power
is acceptable, but I'm having difficulties learning how to start it
properly. Maybe I should read the manual. I wonder if the Ez2Start
device can be added to the MS180.

My (older) Stihl takes six pulls to start. Every time.
(Well not once it's been running.)

George h.

This is my first Stihl saw. My others are a motley assortment of
Husquvarna, Homelite, McCullogh, junk, etc.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/index.html
I have about twice as many saws now.

I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.

In the "Homeowner" series:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms181cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms211cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms251cbe/
Plenty of others in other series. Just look for the C-E suffix.

The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

Yech. I do that a little differently. I have a spare bar oil cap
with a hose barb screwed and glued into the middle. I attach a vinyl
hose to the barb, with the other end to my air compressor. 30 psi
will usually be sufficient to blow out any sawdust and oil mix. That
happens if I store the saw for a few month, and the bar oil turns to
tar. You might look into trying a different brand of bar oil.

I still have about 1/4 cord of firewood from last year. The problem
is that it's all 18" long and my wood burner will only take 16".
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html
It's going to be a very noisy and tiring weekend.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 22:15:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:48:43 -0700, wrote:

Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature?

No. Mine is just the MS180 with no extras:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180/
There's also the MS180C-BE which has the Easy2Start and the "Quick
Chain Adjust" features:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180cbe/
I don't see the MS180C on the product list any more.

Several years
ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
wrists.

Good reason. I kinda wish I had that for a rather dumb reason. The
rear handle (the one with the trigger) is too small to fit my steel
toe shoes. There's no place to stand on the handle while starting.
The right side of the handle has a knuckle guard that will fit my
shoe, but that means I have to start it left handed. For now, I put a
length of 2x4 through the handle and stand on it when starting, but
that's going to get old rather quickly.

So far, I really like the MS180. It's very light and cuts fast. Power
is acceptable, but I'm having difficulties learning how to start it
properly. Maybe I should read the manual. I wonder if the Ez2Start
device can be added to the MS180.

This is my first Stihl saw. My others are a motley assortment of
Husquvarna, Homelite, McCullogh, junk, etc.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/index.html
I have about twice as many saws now.

I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.

In the "Homeowner" series:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms181cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms211cbe/
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms251cbe/
Plenty of others in other series. Just look for the C-E suffix.

The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

Yech. I do that a little differently. I have a spare bar oil cap
with a hose barb screwed and glued into the middle. I attach a vinyl
hose to the barb, with the other end to my air compressor. 30 psi
will usually be sufficient to blow out any sawdust and oil mix. That
happens if I store the saw for a few month, and the bar oil turns to
tar. You might look into trying a different brand of bar oil.

I still have about 1/4 cord of firewood from last year. The problem
is that it's all 18" long and my wood burner will only take 16".
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html
It's going to be a very noisy and tiring weekend.
My saw must be the -BE model. It just has 180C printed on the starter
cover. I am pretty sure the Ez2Start assembly can be added to your
saw. It looks like you just swap the starter cover without the EZ
start with the EZ start caover assembly. Starting the saw is kinda
strange. You just pull the starter handle slowly and when it has wound
up enough it turns the engine over. So it takes a little getting used
to. But I love it. Both of my wrists are bone on bone joints now so
stuff like starting high compression engines is hard on them. But I
also live on 10 wooded acres and need to saw stuff up, like when a
tree blows down and blocks the driveway.
Eric

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
http://www.insideline.com
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.
George H.

The video claims that a Ryobi leaf blower belches pollutants at about
8 times the rate of the automobile. That's serious. I can't verify
the method used, but I do know something about garden equipment. Ryobi
is near last in terms of quality. I would be a bit less skeptical if
they had used name brand equipment for the comparison.

"Regulations for Emissions from Small Equipment & Tools" (EPA)
https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools

"National Emissions from Lawn and Garden Equipment"
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/banks.pdf

"California Weighs Tougher Emissions Rules For Gas-Powered Garden
Equipment" (Feb 2017)
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/28/517576431/california-weighs-tougher-emissions-rules-for-gas-powered-garden-equipment

I've discussed the situation with the local saw shop mechanic. He
attends the various factory training seminars where emissions issues
are discussed. He claims that if the feds or California enact any of
the proposed emission standards, most everything sold (except very
small engines) will need to switch to 4 cycle engines to comply. Part
of the logic is to make the standards 10x more stringent that required
on the assumption that in the field, emissions will increase with the
age of the machine. Husqvarna has delayed switching to 4 stroke with
their X-Torq engine, which offers a substantial reduction in
emissions, but not enough to meet the proposed standards.
http://www.husqvarna.com/int/international-microsite/about-husqvarna/environmental-responsibility/
He also notes that battery powered tools are a slick way around the
emissions problems. I've been thinking of converting an AC powered
electric chain saw to running on battery power. Yet another projet.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

wrote on 9/14/2017 3:11 PM:
On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
http://www.insideline.com
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.

Sounds about right. That shows you how much they've cleaned up auto
exhaust. It also shows how dirty 2-cycle engines are to start with.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked? I had a saw and was never
sure, so I'd stop it periodically and lube the bar. I only used it once in
a blue moon so rather than deal with the hassles I gave it to a friend. Now
he doesn't want me to borrow it, lol.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

Starting my Stihl(s)...
Deep breath,
lift the saw to about chest height, then yank up with the left while *dropping* the saw with the right, for added speed. Starting with the saw stationary is harder for me.

About a year ago I bought me a MSA 160c which is a battery powered saw (now superseded I think) and OH! While pricey as hell & small it is competent and pleasant to work with. Doesn't stink. Starts as long as there is charge in the pack. No noise unless it is doing work. My most used saw now.
It starts with the pull of its trigger :-)

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 12:01:17 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/...delinecom.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
http://www.insideline.com
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.
George H.

The video claims that a Ryobi leaf blower belches pollutants at about
8 times the rate of the automobile. That's serious. I can't verify
the method used, but I do know something about garden equipment. Ryobi
is near last in terms of quality. I would be a bit less skeptical if
they had used name brand equipment for the comparison.

"Regulations for Emissions from Small Equipment & Tools" (EPA)
https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools

"National Emissions from Lawn and Garden Equipment"
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/banks.pdf

"California Weighs Tougher Emissions Rules For Gas-Powered Garden
Equipment" (Feb 2017)
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/28/517576431/california-weighs-tougher-emissions-rules-for-gas-powered-garden-equipment

I've discussed the situation with the local saw shop mechanic. He
attends the various factory training seminars where emissions issues
are discussed. He claims that if the feds or California enact any of
the proposed emission standards, most everything sold (except very
small engines) will need to switch to 4 cycle engines to comply. Part
of the logic is to make the standards 10x more stringent that required
on the assumption that in the field, emissions will increase with the
age of the machine. Husqvarna has delayed switching to 4 stroke with
their X-Torq engine, which offers a substantial reduction in
emissions, but not enough to meet the proposed standards.
http://www.husqvarna.com/int/international-microsite/about-husqvarna/environmental-responsibility/
He also notes that battery powered tools are a slick way around the
emissions problems. I've been thinking of converting an AC powered
electric chain saw to running on battery power. Yet another projet.

Battery powered is certainly an option. I've got a few mikita
battery powered tools. The wife couldn't use the chain saw but wanted
to trim up small stuff.. (say a max of ~4" diameter.) I bought her a
makita battery powered chain saw*. Now even I use. It's lighter and
only runs when your are cutting something. I

George H.
*as a birthday present.. I know I'm a bit of a stinker buying tools
for the wife for her birthday, but in my defense she really likes it!
And the trails through our woods are well manicured.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 2:41:36 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?
You blow through a tank of gas and the oil reservoir is still full.

GH
I had a saw and was never
sure, so I'd stop it periodically and lube the bar. I only used it once in
a blue moon so rather than deal with the hassles I gave it to a friend. Now
he doesn't want me to borrow it, lol.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

wrote on 9/15/2017 3:25 PM:
On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 2:41:36 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?
You blow through a tank of gas and the oil reservoir is still full.

There's a problem. I would never fill the oil reservoir because I would
never use it enough to empty it and it would leak everywhere the saw sat.

When you cleaned the oiler by filling with gas and dumping it, where did you
dump it? That was my other problem, emptying the tank when I was done with
it for the year or two...

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 14:41:31 -0400, rickman wrote:

wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked? I had a saw and was never
sure, so I'd stop it periodically and lube the bar. I only used it once in
a blue moon so rather than deal with the hassles I gave it to a friend. Now
he doesn't want me to borrow it, lol.
One pretty good indication is when the saw runs out of fuel and the
bar oil tank is still almost full. The saw is designed to use fuel a
little faster than bar oil. I imagine all modern chain saws are
designed this way. So when the saw runs out of gas both the fuel tank
and the bar oil get filled. Another indication of lack of bar oil is
that the bar will get hot and you will see sap on the bar starting to
brown or even smoke.
Eric