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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
Hi All,
I fired my Ansmann Energy 16, cell battery charger up earlier to charge 4 x D NiMh's and initially it looked like it was behaving normally but when I looked at it again a few minutes later, there were no LEDs illuminated? ;-( Checked the mains (3A) fuse and it was blown, so I removed the cells, replaced the fuse, tried it again and it blew again. I took it to bits, blew a bit of dust out of it and running the DMM over it on low Ohms, it seems there is a fairly low resistance across the AC input (~ 2 ohms). https://www.dropbox.com/s/r93ghlg58qgcxhv/Ansmann%20PSU%20top.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx4vg5td3mqkiu2/Ansmann%20PSU%20bottom.jpg?dl=0 I then disconnected the PSU and (carefully) ran it up on the bench and again, the fuse blew instantly (however, I'm not sure if it's ok to run the PSU like that with no load etc)? I de-soldered one end of both the input filter caps, and the first transformer and the very low resistance went away on the input side (so it wasn't a shorted cap) but was still across the board where the txfmr output was. FWIW, of the 4 bridge rectifier diodes D1-4 in the middle of the board, D2-3 test out ok in cct, D1,4 test as short cct. All the other diodes and caps around that part of the circuit seem to test out ok on the DMM (diode test, cap continuity charge 'beep' upon probe connection) so I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction re checking it out further etc please? Given there isn't much else on that board, is it likely it's the first txfmr, one (or both) of the TOP223Y's (PWM switch) and how could I test them if it was please? Or could it be the (PC817) opto-isolators as I assume they would be fairly easy to test out of the board? Thanks for your help in advance ... ;-) Cheers, T i m p.s. I might have got some of the above wrong so please assume that to be the case as I don't want to mislead anyone. ;-( |
#2
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:27:21 +0100, T i m wrote:
D1,4 test as short cct. I would take those out and check outside the circuit. If the short is at the output of the bridge rectifier, and all four diodes are good, you should measure a diode drop (0.6 V or so) across the diodes in both directions. -- RoRo |
#3
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
Replace the shorted recctifiers!!!! As a precaution, replace all 4 of them;
they're cheap. Even in circuit, they should not test as a short corcuit. Cheers, Dave M T i m wrote: Hi All, I fired my Ansmann Energy 16, cell battery charger up earlier to charge 4 x D NiMh's and initially it looked like it was behaving normally but when I looked at it again a few minutes later, there were no LEDs illuminated? ;-( Checked the mains (3A) fuse and it was blown, so I removed the cells, replaced the fuse, tried it again and it blew again. I took it to bits, blew a bit of dust out of it and running the DMM over it on low Ohms, it seems there is a fairly low resistance across the AC input (~ 2 ohms). https://www.dropbox.com/s/r93ghlg58qgcxhv/Ansmann%20PSU%20top.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx4vg5td3mqkiu2/Ansmann%20PSU%20bottom.jpg?dl=0 I then disconnected the PSU and (carefully) ran it up on the bench and again, the fuse blew instantly (however, I'm not sure if it's ok to run the PSU like that with no load etc)? I de-soldered one end of both the input filter caps, and the first transformer and the very low resistance went away on the input side (so it wasn't a shorted cap) but was still across the board where the txfmr output was. FWIW, of the 4 bridge rectifier diodes D1-4 in the middle of the board, D2-3 test out ok in cct, D1,4 test as short cct. All the other diodes and caps around that part of the circuit seem to test out ok on the DMM (diode test, cap continuity charge 'beep' upon probe connection) so I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction re checking it out further etc please? Given there isn't much else on that board, is it likely it's the first txfmr, one (or both) of the TOP223Y's (PWM switch) and how could I test them if it was please? Or could it be the (PC817) opto-isolators as I assume they would be fairly easy to test out of the board? Thanks for your help in advance ... ;-) Cheers, T i m p.s. I might have got some of the above wrong so please assume that to be the case as I don't want to mislead anyone. ;-( |
#4
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:03:01 UTC+1, Robert Roland wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:27:21 +0100, T i m wrote: D1,4 test as short cct. I would take those out and check outside the circuit. If the short is at the output of the bridge rectifier, and all four diodes are good, you should measure a diode drop (0.6 V or so) across the diodes in both directions. if you test individually: 0.6v one way only if testing at bridge input: 1.2v both ways An easy way to find faults is to run the psu via a filament light bulb, then it's easy to probe the [dangerously live] circuit for voltages with due care. Since I don't know if you can do this safely, don't do it. NT |
#5
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:17:05 -0500, "Dave M"
wrote: Replace the shorted recctifiers!!!! As a precaution, replace all 4 of them; they're cheap. Even in circuit, they should not test as a short corcuit. snip Thanks Robert / Dave, I haven't played much with SMPS (for obvious (safety) reasons) so assumed there might be some strange 'appears short but isn't in use' type thing going on. I should have pulled those diodes before asking here. ;-( However, I just desoldered one end of both and one appears to be dead short but the other was ok (but I've pulled them all). Problem is, while I probably have 1,000 IN4004's, I don't have any 1N4007's and I'm guessing we need the 1000V peak reverse / DC blocking voltage (rather than just 400) and 700 over 280V RMS? ;-( So, I can pick some of those up next week (eBay) or it looks like Maplin have 1N4007S's in stock but are they an acceptable equivalent? (Peak forward surge current, 30 not 50A)? http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...YI/IN4004.html http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/395/1N400...15-1082941.pdf Cheers, T i m p.s. How long is a piece of string question but ... Is it 'likely' that diode just went (the charger is a good few years old now and has been used quite a bit), or is it more likely something further down the line took it out? |
#6
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
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#7
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
"T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:17:05 -0500, "Dave M" wrote: Replace the shorted recctifiers!!!! As a precaution, replace all 4 of them; they're cheap. Even in circuit, they should not test as a short corcuit. snip Thanks Robert / Dave, I haven't played much with SMPS (for obvious (safety) reasons) so assumed there might be some strange 'appears short but isn't in use' type thing going on. I should have pulled those diodes before asking here. ;-( However, I just desoldered one end of both and one appears to be dead short but the other was ok (but I've pulled them all). Problem is, while I probably have 1,000 IN4004's, I don't have any 1N4007's and I'm guessing we need the 1000V peak reverse / DC blocking voltage (rather than just 400) and 700 over 280V RMS? ;-( So, I can pick some of those up next week (eBay) or it looks like Maplin have 1N4007S's in stock but are they an acceptable equivalent? (Peak forward surge current, 30 not 50A)? http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...YI/IN4004.html http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/395/1N400...15-1082941.pdf Cheers, T i m p.s. How long is a piece of string question but ... Is it 'likely' that diode just went (the charger is a good few years old now and has been used quite a bit), or is it more likely something further down the line took it out? It is likely that the off line switch regulator is also failed. Grab a copy of the TOP223Y datasheet to see the reference design for your supply. Here is a source for those chips: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-TOP223Y...AOSwnLdWrEJ R |
#8
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
Yes, the 1N4007 recrifiers should be good replacements. Likely to be the
only problem in your unit. As a precaution, you should check the large transistors on the board. They are likely to be high voltage MOSFETs, and should NOT be shorted or low resistance from drain to source or from gate to any other terminal. Best to take them off the board to test, since they're certain to be connected to the low resistance transformer windings, which could lead you astray. Cheers, Dave M T i m wrote: On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:17:05 -0500, "Dave M" wrote: Replace the shorted recctifiers!!!! As a precaution, replace all 4 of them; they're cheap. Even in circuit, they should not test as a short corcuit. snip Thanks Robert / Dave, I haven't played much with SMPS (for obvious (safety) reasons) so assumed there might be some strange 'appears short but isn't in use' type thing going on. I should have pulled those diodes before asking here. ;-( However, I just desoldered one end of both and one appears to be dead short but the other was ok (but I've pulled them all). Problem is, while I probably have 1,000 IN4004's, I don't have any 1N4007's and I'm guessing we need the 1000V peak reverse / DC blocking voltage (rather than just 400) and 700 over 280V RMS? ;-( So, I can pick some of those up next week (eBay) or it looks like Maplin have 1N4007S's in stock but are they an acceptable equivalent? (Peak forward surge current, 30 not 50A)? http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...YI/IN4004.html http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/395/1N400...15-1082941.pdf Cheers, T i m |
#9
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
Dave,
The "large transistors" are TOP223Y off line switching regulator ICs. Google the part number for the datasheet and reference design. Regards "Dave M" wrote in message ... Yes, the 1N4007 recrifiers should be good replacements. Likely to be the only problem in your unit. As a precaution, you should check the large transistors on the board. They are likely to be high voltage MOSFETs, and should NOT be shorted or low resistance from drain to source or from gate to any other terminal. Best to take them off the board to test, since they're certain to be connected to the low resistance transformer windings, which could lead you astray. Cheers, Dave M T i m wrote: On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:17:05 -0500, "Dave M" wrote: Replace the shorted recctifiers!!!! As a precaution, replace all 4 of them; they're cheap. Even in circuit, they should not test as a short corcuit. snip Thanks Robert / Dave, I haven't played much with SMPS (for obvious (safety) reasons) so assumed there might be some strange 'appears short but isn't in use' type thing going on. I should have pulled those diodes before asking here. ;-( However, I just desoldered one end of both and one appears to be dead short but the other was ok (but I've pulled them all). Problem is, while I probably have 1,000 IN4004's, I don't have any 1N4007's and I'm guessing we need the 1000V peak reverse / DC blocking voltage (rather than just 400) and 700 over 280V RMS? ;-( So, I can pick some of those up next week (eBay) or it looks like Maplin have 1N4007S's in stock but are they an acceptable equivalent? (Peak forward surge current, 30 not 50A)? http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...YI/IN4004.html http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/395/1N400...15-1082941.pdf Cheers, T i m |
#10
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 15:54:33 -0400, "tom"
wrote: snip p.s. How long is a piece of string question but ... Is it 'likely' that diode just went (the charger is a good few years old now and has been used quite a bit), or is it more likely something further down the line took it out? It is likely that the off line switch regulator is also failed. There are two in this PSU so could that apply to one or both? Grab a copy of the TOP223Y datasheet to see the reference design for your supply. I have looked at this: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/p...OP223Y-pdf.php ... and see roughly how it would work but not sure if that means I should be able to test it somehow? FWIW, I have one of the little component testers but I don't know if it will know what that is or even damage it? Here is a source for those chips: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-TOP223Y...AOSwnLdWrEJ R Thanks for that. However I am in the UK and but get them here also. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
#11
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 16:02:34 -0400, "tom"
wrote: Dave, The "large transistors" are TOP223Y off line switching regulator ICs. Google the part number for the datasheet and reference design. Would you think one of those component testers would be able to identify the PWM reg, at least with a go/no-go result? From testing around there were no shorts around the devices but that doesn't stop them being OC or just non-functional? Cheers, T i m |
#12
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
"T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 15:54:33 -0400, "tom" wrote: snip p.s. How long is a piece of string question but ... Is it 'likely' that diode just went (the charger is a good few years old now and has been used quite a bit), or is it more likely something further down the line took it out? It is likely that the off line switch regulator is also failed. There are two in this PSU so could that apply to one or both? Grab a copy of the TOP223Y datasheet to see the reference design for your supply. I have looked at this: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/p...OP223Y-pdf.php ... and see roughly how it would work but not sure if that means I should be able to test it somehow? FWIW, I have one of the little component testers but I don't know if it will know what that is or even damage it? Here is a source for those chips: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-TOP223Y...AOSwnLdWrEJ R Thanks for that. However I am in the UK and but get them here also. ;-) Cheers, T i m A quick ohmmeter check across the three pins should not show a short circuit. If it does so in circuit, you may need to remove the device to check. |
#13
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
"T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 15:54:33 -0400, "tom" wrote: snip p.s. How long is a piece of string question but ... Is it 'likely' that diode just went (the charger is a good few years old now and has been used quite a bit), or is it more likely something further down the line took it out? It is likely that the off line switch regulator is also failed. There are two in this PSU so could that apply to one or both? Grab a copy of the TOP223Y datasheet to see the reference design for your supply. I have looked at this: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/p...OP223Y-pdf.php ... and see roughly how it would work but not sure if that means I should be able to test it somehow? FWIW, I have one of the little component testers but I don't know if it will know what that is or even damage it? Here is a source for those chips: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-TOP223Y...AOSwnLdWrEJ R Thanks for that. However I am in the UK and but get them here also. ;-) Cheers, T i m Look at fig 8 in the datasheet for how your unit works. If I read your post right, this charges LiIon batteries, right? So the outputs should be about 4.0 to 4.2 volts. There is some feedback coming from the battery that probably looks at the battery temperature for a safety shutdown. You could probably reverse engineer the whole schematic (or half of it) to get a better view of what is going on. BTW, the transformer on the right next to the capacitor is not a transformer. It is a common mode choke for RFI filtering. |
#14
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 16:32:22 -0400, "tom"
wrote: snip I have looked at this: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/p...OP223Y-pdf.php ... and see roughly how it would work but not sure if that means I should be able to test it somehow? FWIW, I have one of the little component testers but I don't know if it will know what that is or even damage it? snip Look at fig 8 in the datasheet for how your unit works. OK. Again, I get the rough idea but I was more into digital electronics than SMPSU etc. If I read your post right, this charges LiIon batteries, right? Sorry, no, it's a general purpose multi-cell NiCad / NiMh charger Tom. http://www.conrad.com/medias/global/...B.EPS_1000.jpg http://www.ansmann.de/en/service/dow...7123-energy-16 snip The PSU board feeds a fairly complex logic / output board (4 PSU outputs to the logic board) and in turn the 16 charger outputs. You could probably reverse engineer the whole schematic (or half of it) to get a better view of what is going on. Ok. BTW, the transformer on the right next to the capacitor is not a transformer. It is a common mode choke for RFI filtering. Ah, ok, thanks ... that (now) makes more sense as even with that (choke) in and D1-4 out, I've lost the short I was seeing across the mains input. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
#15
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
"T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 16:32:22 -0400, "tom" wrote: snip I have looked at this: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/p...OP223Y-pdf.php ... and see roughly how it would work but not sure if that means I should be able to test it somehow? FWIW, I have one of the little component testers but I don't know if it will know what that is or even damage it? snip Look at fig 8 in the datasheet for how your unit works. OK. Again, I get the rough idea but I was more into digital electronics than SMPSU etc. If I read your post right, this charges LiIon batteries, right? Sorry, no, it's a general purpose multi-cell NiCad / NiMh charger Tom. http://www.conrad.com/medias/global/...B.EPS_1000.jpg http://www.ansmann.de/en/service/dow...7123-energy-16 snip The PSU board feeds a fairly complex logic / output board (4 PSU outputs to the logic board) and in turn the 16 charger outputs. You could probably reverse engineer the whole schematic (or half of it) to get a better view of what is going on. Ok. BTW, the transformer on the right next to the capacitor is not a transformer. It is a common mode choke for RFI filtering. Ah, ok, thanks ... that (now) makes more sense as even with that (choke) in and D1-4 out, I've lost the short I was seeing across the mains input. ;-) Cheers, T i m Ok, good. That makes more sense for why so many outputs. Doing any measurements on this device (scope, etc) will require an isolation transformer to look at the primary (line) side. The outputs all appear to be isolated. Hope it's just the shorted diodes. Good luck. Regards |
#16
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:59:12 UTC+1, Dave M wrote:
Yes, the 1N4007 recrifiers should be good replacements. Likely to be the only problem in your unit. As a precaution, you should check the large transistors on the board. They are likely to be high voltage MOSFETs, and should NOT be shorted or low resistance from drain to source or from gate to any other terminal. Best to take them off the board to test, since they're certain to be connected to the low resistance transformer windings, which could lead you astray. Cheers, Dave M I've been led astray by small amounts of capacitance before NT |
#17
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:17:26 -0400, "tom"
wrote: snip Ah, ok, thanks ... that (now) makes more sense as even with that (choke) in and D1-4 out, I've lost the short I was seeing across the mains input. ;-) Ok, good. That makes more sense for why so many outputs. It's quite an expensive unit (I think it cost me ~100 UKP some years ago) so I'd like to get it going if I can. Doing any measurements on this device (scope, etc) will require an isolation transformer to look at the primary (line) side. Understood. The outputs all appear to be isolated. Ok. Hope it's just the shorted diodes. Fingers crossed. ;-) Good luck. Thanks for your help and I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers, T i m |
#18
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Saturday, 29 July 2017 22:38:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:17:26 -0400, "tom" wrote: snip Ah, ok, thanks ... that (now) makes more sense as even with that (choke) in and D1-4 out, I've lost the short I was seeing across the mains input. ;-) you would, 99% of the time Ok, good. That makes more sense for why so many outputs. It's quite an expensive unit (I think it cost me ~100 UKP some years ago) so I'd like to get it going if I can. Doing any measurements on this device (scope, etc) will require an isolation transformer to look at the primary (line) side. Understood. The outputs all appear to be isolated. Ok. Hope it's just the shorted diodes. Fingers crossed. ;-) Good luck. Thanks for your help and I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers, T i m if it's only 1 bad diode try running it without it, on half load or less it should be ok. 2x400v diodes in series should do as replacements temporarily. NT |
#19
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
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#20
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
if you test individually: 0.6v one way only Unless the output is shorted. -- RoRo |
#21
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:22:53 +0100, T i m wrote:
Would you think one of those component testers would be able to identify the PWM reg, at least with a go/no-go result? I do not know which component tester you are talking about, but I would be very impressed if it could. -- RoRo |
#22
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:21:53 +0200, Robert Roland
wrote: On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:22:53 +0100, T i m wrote: Would you think one of those component testers would be able to identify the PWM reg, at least with a go/no-go result? I do not know which component tester you are talking about, but I would be very impressed if it could. Well, whilst I think they are 'quite clever' I agree that it probably couldn't test the TOP223Y's. http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se...doc_id=1329331 I bought one (ironically) for measuring the ESR on SMPS caps (Topfield STB) but have used it (mostly successfully) for many other things since. ;-) On that ... do you think it might be worth testing (or even just replacing) the two main caps in case they are getting weak? I note they have an extra heat shrink 'skin', probably because they are pressed up against the tiny heatsink on the TOP223Y's? Cheers, T i m |
#23
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:54:52 +0100, T i m wrote:
Well, whilst I think they are 'quite clever' I agree that it probably couldn't test the TOP223Y's. http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se...doc_id=1329331 I have one similar. Yes, they are impressively clever for the money. By they do not do ICs, only generic components. The only component that I found will fool it, was a germanium power transistor. The low Vbe, combined with the low DC gain probably threw it off. On that ... do you think it might be worth testing (or even just replacing) the two main caps in case they are getting weak? Hard to say. There are so many factors that affect the aging of caps. It does not take many seconds to take them out and test them, though. I note they have an extra heat shrink 'skin', probably because they are pressed up against the tiny heatsink on the TOP223Y's? Yes, I noticed that, too. Hopefully, the TOP does not get all that hot. -- RoRo |
#24
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Ansmann Energy 16 PSU
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 17:18:11 +0200, Robert Roland
wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:54:52 +0100, T i m wrote: Well, whilst I think they are 'quite clever' I agree that it probably couldn't test the TOP223Y's. http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se...doc_id=1329331 I have one similar. Yes, they are impressively clever for the money. Aren't they. ;-) By they do not do ICs, only generic components. My only thought was that whist the TOP is actually a 'clever' 3 pin device, there may be some basic logic that it could respond to that might make the tester think it was a working FET or Triac or some such? eg. You might be able to use it as a go / no-go test, *if* it detected something positive (however misdirected) in comparison to a good one? The only component that I found will fool it, was a germanium power transistor. The low Vbe, combined with the low DC gain probably threw it off. Ok ... and that's not even a 'clever' component at such. eh. ;-) On that ... do you think it might be worth testing (or even just replacing) the two main caps in case they are getting weak? Hard to say. There are so many factors that affect the aging of caps. It does not take many seconds to take them out and test them, though. True, as whatever 'glue' they used to hold stuff down seems to have gone off a bit in any case. Maybe I'll replace the diodes first and if the unit then works, treat it to a fair of quality (low ESR?) caps at that point. I note they have an extra heat shrink 'skin', probably because they are pressed up against the tiny heatsink on the TOP223Y's? Yes, I noticed that, too. Hopefully, the TOP does not get all that hot. I doubt it would (for that heatsink) as it's got next to no radiative qualities (being partially masked by the cap) and only a small thermal mass. It might just be there to rest the cap on. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
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