Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc. So,
far, legeslation has been introduced in 6 states. Kansas, Mass,
Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, and Wyoming so far. I don't know much
more than what I've read about it:
https://repair.org
http://modernfarmer.com/2016/07/right-to-repair/
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/farmers-right-to-repair
http://ifixit.org/right

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On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:11:07 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc. So,
far, legeslation has been introduced in 6 states. Kansas, Mass,
Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, and Wyoming so far. I don't know much
more than what I've read about it:
https://repair.org
http://modernfarmer.com/2016/07/right-to-repair/
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/farmers-right-to-repair
http://ifixit.org/right

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.

In any case, it won't affect lower cost electronics. That will never happen.
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This idea has been proposed a number of times and is most often seen in relation to vehicles. At issue is the need to go to a dealer to get some things fixed. Independent service providers don't have access to the computer diagnosis or update software and thus can not fix everything. I have seen this from both sides (I have provided service as a dealer as well as independently). Manufacturers charge service companies money for access to proprietary information. This guarantees some level of work for that provider at least for that manufacturer's product. If all were allowed access, then there would be little to differentiate service providers. Also, who would provide warranty service? Given what little is paid for service under warranty, at least having access to the service information will hopefully create more non-warranty work.

Dan
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On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:47:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:11:07 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc.


I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.


So? Let 'em document a safety issue. Iindustrial safety is NOT a closed-book issue,
it's a matter of public interest.
Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.

The real issue, unfortunately, is that 'require to supply parts' is only possible if the
company and its suppliers exist unchanged as long as the goods do. Workarounds
like last-time-buy are prohibitively expensive in some
states (where inventory is taxed annually).

No current production line can replicate a 30-year-old engine computer.
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On 2017/02/02 3:06 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:47:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:11:07 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc.


I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.


So? Let 'em document a safety issue. Iindustrial safety is NOT a closed-book issue,
it's a matter of public interest.
Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.
...

No current production line can replicate a 30-year-old engine computer.


I would disagree with your last statement.

If there is sufficient demand then some bright person will MAKE a
replacement computer for the 30 year old machine. In my industry
(pinball and other coin-op games) there are multiple suppliers of
circuit boards and computers for pinball games as far back as the early
70s. I am working on a replacement PCB for a 1975 motherboard that used
three 6530s (Rockwell) with a FPGA.

John :-#)#
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On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 7:45:07 PM UTC-5, John Robertson wrote:
On 2017/02/02 3:06 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:47:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:11:07 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc.


I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.


So? Let 'em document a safety issue. Iindustrial safety is NOT a closed-book issue,
it's a matter of public interest.
Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.
...

No current production line can replicate a 30-year-old engine computer.


I would disagree with your last statement.

If there is sufficient demand then some bright person will MAKE a
replacement computer for the 30 year old machine. In my industry
(pinball and other coin-op games) there are multiple suppliers of
circuit boards and computers for pinball games as far back as the early
70s. I am working on a replacement PCB for a 1975 motherboard that used
three 6530s (Rockwell) with a FPGA.

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."




If anything, it might be easier to emulate an early car computer than anything, assuming the plan is functionality not originality. The bigger problem would be the relatively low tech coil and solenoid drivers.

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On 2017/02/02 5:15 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 7:45:07 PM UTC-5, John Robertson wrote:
On 2017/02/02 3:06 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:47:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:11:07 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc.

I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.

So? Let 'em document a safety issue. Iindustrial safety is NOT a closed-book issue,
it's a matter of public interest.
Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.
...

No current production line can replicate a 30-year-old engine computer.


I would disagree with your last statement.

If there is sufficient demand then some bright person will MAKE a
replacement computer for the 30 year old machine. In my industry
(pinball and other coin-op games) there are multiple suppliers of
circuit boards and computers for pinball games as far back as the early
70s. I am working on a replacement PCB for a 1975 motherboard that used
three 6530s (Rockwell) with a FPGA.

John :-#)#


If anything, it might be easier to emulate an early car computer than anything, assuming the plan is functionality not originality. The bigger problem would be the relatively low tech coil and solenoid drivers.


Pinball games use lots of low-tech coils...and there are many
replacement driver boards out there.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
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On Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:06:30 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.


I have several pieces of equipment where the manufacturer's included
software licence statement *forbids* R/E and or disclosure of any
contents thereof.

The only way to test that in a jurisdiction is to have deeper pockets.
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On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 7:30:47 PM UTC-8, pedro wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2017 15:06:30 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and
publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.


I have several pieces of equipment where the manufacturer's included
software licence statement *forbids* R/E and or disclosure of any
contents thereof.

The only way to test that in a jurisdiction is to have deeper pockets.


The proposed legislation would supersede that 'requirement' by making it
illegal. At least, it'd be illegal within the jurisdiction of the law, but it'd be very
silly outside that jurisdiction, once publication has occurred.
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John Robertson wrote:



If there is sufficient demand then some bright person will MAKE a
replacement computer for the 30 year old machine. In my industry
(pinball and other coin-op games) there are multiple suppliers of
circuit boards and computers for pinball games as far back as the early
70s. I am working on a replacement PCB for a 1975 motherboard that used
three 6530s (Rockwell) with a FPGA.

The problem is that anything to do with the emission control system has to
be certified to not alter the emissions of the car. Hmmm, maybe won't
matter a lot on a 30 year old car (if it even HAD a computer).
But, making after market replacement parts for any part of the emissions
system has to go through a lot more than somebody making a wiper motor or a
fender.

Jon


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You certainly know where to find those big cans of worms. This goes alot deeper. The fact is that you own nothing, you are just a holder in good conduct.

When you think you buy a car, you are simply buying a title to that car. The actual proof of ownership is called a Manufacturer's Statement Of Origin. The state in which you live takes that, records ad then destroys it and issues you a certificate of title or similar instrument which is nothing but a license. The last state that would issue license plates on an MSO IIRC was Tennessee and I am pretty sure they stopped.

The same thing applies to real estate. The Constitution says property cannot be taken without compensation, but they can take it for taxes as easily as your Mother could take a toy away from you when you are five years old. Why ? Because they already owned it. You pay for it, they own it just like your car. In fact, the network of laws written from the Trading With The Enemy Act all the way to the US bankruptcy papers decades ago make it clear that you are actually property and property cannot own property. Also realize that your 1040 form every year is an actual contract with a mandatory oath.. Nothing else, a contract. That's why 80 % of the people who beat the IRS do not file. But that is a different subject.

We are on the losing ed of this, and as far as I am concerned the older the better. My next car will have no ECM at all in it. Ever see the hydraulic schematic for a THM400 transmission ? That thing is a hydraulic analog computer. But you can put a shift kit in it. Actually I frown o any modifications to a THM400 because it is the last thing they designed right.

I do not need the internet on my phone. I do not need a user configurable dashboard on my car or tractor or any other damn thing. They shove this **** down your throat because that is what they have. You buy it or do without.

Don't even get me started on any software EULAs. They all say the same thing. We own everything, you o wn nothing. If our software destroys your hardware you are out of luck. If you decompile or otherwise modify our software we can sue you and take everything we own from you. That means everything folks.

How to fight back ? Well eventually we have to get the young into it, but don't buy anything. The only thing they understand is money. When they see you fitting a custom molded housing or something on a 1964 Oliver farm tractor rather than buying the new John Deere with their easy credit terms, they might take note. And 3D printing will help in some things.

And yes, you CAN replicate a 1980s ECM for a car. The O2 sensor controls the timing and mixture, the vacuum or MAF sensor controls the mixture and timing, with those priorities. As long as you can get a pulse from the cam, sometimes even just the crank, you can make any engine run. Twelve volts to the injectors, ground the other side to fire. Predetermined values for startup until it hits 400 RPM.

John P was quite the character. Tells me, about a car that keeps killing the battery and we were talking 1970s cars here, he says "Get you a wire cutters and get under the dash and cut every damn wire down there except for the headlights". Sounds pretty flippant but that might be our last resort.

Now TVs, people are just going to have to do without them. Idiots threw out all their old CRT TVs and now are caught in a trap. And we tried. This was our life in business, and now we're dead.

We considered many options, both well monied and not. We found out that it is a losing game. We could go out and buy TVs new, exact same model number, serial numbers the same up to the last five characters and NOT ONE SINGLE PART FITS. Not even the god damn speakers !

Shopjimmy made great strides, but we were the guinea pigs. I proved one of their parts was bad and that it had exactly the same problem as the one that came out. It was a Tcon and it was clipping the video. The main had already been tried so it was the Tcon or the screen itself, and there is no way a screen fault would cause that symptom uniformly on the screen. So we had problems even testing the parts, even to board level. Luckily I found you actually could put a scope on the LVDS and got familiar with the waveforms in a plasma TV. Bought me a couple more years in the business but in the end I was selling buggy whips.

If we could get the government to do it, and believe me Trump is the most likely to do it, would be to require a warranty on all goods, commensurate with cost. you got a $500 smartphone you want to sell here ? Four year warranty and eight parts and supplies for the ASCs. Twenty grand car or tractor ? Twenty years. Thousand dollar plasma, six year warranty, and twelve for the ASCs.

And, the sum total of all the parts needed to build the unit cannot exceed double the MSRP.

Bottom line, many liberals see Trump as too brash and too whatever, but in some ways he might get something done. This country has been open season on malicious companies across the world for too too long. Really, IMO that tariff for the Mexicans should not be 20 %, it should be more like 75 %.

Offshoring of work in the US is taking advantage of echange rates and costs of living in other countries. In China, think they are living in grass huts ? Nope. They are driving their air conditioned cars to work on roads better than ours and getting better heath care than we are. They EXECUTED the head of their FDA for what the head of the US FDA does every day. Prescription drugs kill more people than illegal drugs in this country, in China, SEVEN PEOPLE died and they executed the guy.

And if you live near fracking and have kidney problems, your doctor is under a gag order not to discuss with you how those fracking chemicals destroy your kidneys and therefore renal function. (Pennsylvania, Dr. Rodriguez) you didn't think they just pumped water down there now did you ? But the formula is secret. Know why ? /because if it wasn't secret there would be a **** ton of lawsuits against the oil companies.

And they built that piece of **** in the golf that makes sure our shrimp is nicely greased up. They build pipelines that leak all the time and give that Native tribe up there ammunition to garner public support to shut down those pipelines that we desperately need. What are they making these pipelines out of, paper mache' ? Trump should say "Have your pipelines, but one drop of oil leaked is a million dollar fine and every gallon is a million dollar fine. that should pretty much please everyone because their bottom line cannot absorb that and it would put them out of business.

But the bottom liner is that the government is all for business ad doesn't give a **** about us whatsoever, until election day. now we got a half nuts loose cannon in there who might get something done.

I say we make every effort to use this time wisely.
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"I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue."

Then we adopt the Jewish idea of a boycott. Let's see them bribe the government with no money. HAHAHAHAHA.
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"
I have several pieces of equipment where the manufacturer's included
software licence statement *forbids* R/E and or disclosure of any
contents thereof. "

Some slick lawyer might find a way to break that. Like a no competition clause in an employment agreement. There has to be a geographical or other area specified and a time limit or the courts will usually not enforce it.

Say I have a 15 year old Tek scope that ruins XP. I will hire school kids in China to decompile and fix the software as I see fit. When they stopped support they terminated whatever contracts they may have had with me, and I double dog dare them to sue me. Let's air ALL the dirty laundry, and I will make it a point to have live TV coverage of the whole trial as well as summaries on the evening news every night, because we are not alone. Look at al the people who have tried to eek out a living helping the repair industry.. From Howard W. Sams reverse engineering to Asti making aftermarket transformers etc.

You know, they might put that revolution sensor in an engine where you really can't get to it, but you can drill a hole in the frikken valve cover and pick up a pulse off of one of the valves. that gives you phase as well as which side is firing, which doesn't always matter because half of the older designs fired two injectors and plugs at once and did not need a cam pulse at all. Hell some of the late 1980s cars we might be able to make better than new. Problem is the bodies rust out so we need good welders. Let's ho9pe the digitalennials don't start ****ing with them or we'll have welders just using straight house current with a ballast like we used to in the old days.

Wanna see some real USian ingenuity ? Throw me a couple of million. I mean it. Know what you'll see ? Computers that can run any engine, and later transmission. (my buddy the engineer always buys stick shift cars, I actually wondered if he could even drive an automatic for a while but then eventually I saw him do it...)

You'll see these car bodies from the 1990s fixed, new ECMs and they pass emissions (pre OBD2). And last but not least, IF you select by switch, the lights go on immediately when you ope the doors and they go off imediately when you close the doors. The lights do not go on or off without your command.. And sorry, if you want the driver window all the way down you have to hold the button. And in any case those plastic tapes they use on the window regulators will be replaced by steel ones.

With all that, your great Grandson can drive your Buick Roadmaster until he is 140 years old. I always wanted one of those but they were too expensive and now they are too old. They had the old style headlight switch, the kind you pull out ! There were words in English, like "WIPER", "LIGHTS" and so forth instead of these icons. In the old windows I usually used File Manager. I do not need little pictures I know how to read. Take your icons and stick them where they are sure not to get a sunburn.
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.."The problem is that anything to do with the emission control system has to
be certified to not alter the emissions of the car. Hmmm, maybe won't
matter a lot on a 30 year old car (if it even HAD a computer).
But, making after market replacement parts for any part of the emissions
system has to go through a lot more than somebody making a wiper motor or a
fender. "

Many 30 year old cars had computers. They were basic, just controlled fuel mixture and ignition timing. Actually, after studying them a bit I find that it almost doesn't matter how many cylinders there are except for idle speed. Later one fire the injectors in pairs or possibly single at a time in which case you need a cam pulse to know what cylinder you're on. Generally a ring counter and a PWM can do the ignition, and the old TBFI doesn't care. When the MPFI came out it mattered and it matters in those cars that have direct cylinder injection.

The newer ones with the transmission controlled electronically present a new challenge but it can always be turned into and "auto-stick" where you shift but it is done with hydraulic valves. One of the problems with that is the newer transmissions are too cheap and frequently lack a one way clutch for the lower forward speeds, this means that downshifing must be done at the right RPM or there is a big objectionable clunk.

But it can be done. What can't be done with any realistic expectations is to drive a plasma panel, or even an LCD panel. Someone could rig up a backlight if that happens to fail and doesn't send the thing into knip****s and subsequent shutdown. (to protect you from the mercury of course, in their lead free product)

In any event, in the end the manufacturers win, unless we speak with the loudest voices possible. It takes some balls and staying out of debt. You go tell the John Deere dealer you will not be buying as new unrepairable item and since your old item is not repairable your crop will rot. Also mention that their founder would likely be rolling over in his grave. And then, we take every Tektroix scope that runs Windows and then it crashed and is no longer supported and take it to Oregon and throw it through the biggest piece of plate glass on their building. Take your ****ing junk back. This is not a smartphone, get it ? I am not a 14 year old who needs the latest technology, and BTW, get off your slimey skinflint asses and build us a CRO again.. At least one model. Either non-sampling or can be switched to non-sampling. I want to slow down the sweep and see the green dot go across the screen.. that is what scopes do.

I, for one, am sick of this ****.

Know what Trump can do ? Somehow make it so when something is not repairable due to parts cost or non-0availability of parts or information, the company must take it back and pay for environmentally proper disposal.

Through the nose. Oh there's mercury in there, twenty bucks. Nickel in that stainless steel ? Ten bucks, add that **** up until it is more than what the thing cost new.

I hope Trump starts drinking vodka with Putin and grows a pair. **** you that you bestow your factory and or dealerships on the US, you PAY for the privilege to do business here, you got it fleagle ? You don't like our taxes you go peddle your junk in ****ing Indonesia or some **** because you are banned from this market. We will make our own.

no factories here, no stores here. real simple like that, or can be refined.. Keep your junk. And BTW, that wheat you feed your hogs to sell that fat laden pork to USians and make us sick ? It has just doubled in price, and there is now a tariff on hog bellies that will make speculators run for the bathroom.

You wanna see hoe to fix the economy ? Well it takes someone ab0ut twice as radical as Trump. and he ****ed off Australia. Know what ? I sat there earlier trying to give a **** less but I just could not do it. They are totally irrelevant.
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Oops, the part I forgot to putt in :

Most cars that old are exempt, or they only have to pass tailpipe emissions. We can do that. It is the newer ones that if the god damn glove box light is out it fails that are at issue here.


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On 2/3/2017 3:11 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to
require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc. So,
far, legeslation has been introduced in 6 states. Kansas, Mass,
Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, and Wyoming so far. I don't know much
more than what I've read about it:


Only big equipment can be repaired easily? Not with chips.

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On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 11:49:51 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

wrote:

(my buddy the engineer always buys stick shift cars, I
actually wondered if he could even drive an automatic for a while but then
eventually I saw him do it...)

Yeah, but he keeps stomping his left foot on the floor where the clutch
pedal is SUPPOSED to be every time he come up to a light or stop sign.
Don't ask how I know about this - 30 years of primarily driving stick.


I are an engineer (of sorts). All my vehicles have had stick shifts
since about 1970. In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper. I even converted one old vehicle from
automatic to manual (because the junk yard wanted less for the manual
than a rebuild would have cost me for the automatic). Today, it's
purely psychological and maybe a little macho. It doesn't feel like
I'm driving the vehicle unless I control the gearing. Having it done
automatically makes me feel more like I'm a passenger than a driver.
After price, a manual transmission was a mandatory requirement for my
last vehicle. I even overpaid the dealer for it as I knew they were
getting scarce and difficult to find.

And yes, I have problems driving an automatic, try to shift in an
automatic, and find my left foot wandering around looking for the
clutch pedal. I don't know how I'll do with a self-driving car.
Probably badly.

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On 02/03/2017 01:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 11:49:51 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

wrote:

(my buddy the engineer always buys stick shift cars, I
actually wondered if he could even drive an automatic for a while but then
eventually I saw him do it...)

Yeah, but he keeps stomping his left foot on the floor where the clutch
pedal is SUPPOSED to be every time he come up to a light or stop sign.
Don't ask how I know about this - 30 years of primarily driving stick.


I are an engineer (of sorts). All my vehicles have had stick shifts
since about 1970. In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper. I even converted one old vehicle from
automatic to manual (because the junk yard wanted less for the manual
than a rebuild would have cost me for the automatic). Today, it's
purely psychological and maybe a little macho. It doesn't feel like
I'm driving the vehicle unless I control the gearing. Having it done
automatically makes me feel more like I'm a passenger than a driver.
After price, a manual transmission was a mandatory requirement for my
last vehicle. I even overpaid the dealer for it as I knew they were
getting scarce and difficult to find.


In October I bought a brand new 2012 Mustang convertible with the stick
shift. (It had 200 or so miles on it--it had got caught up in the
Takata airbag mess, so the dealer couldn't sell it for ages.) Got a
nice discount too--it wound up being the price of my daughter's Kia
econobox.

Newer cars are full of surveillance devices, which I cordially dislike.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net


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Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper.

Well, adding more gear ratios and the lock-up torque converter helped the
mileage a bit. Now, I have a hybrid that has a continuously variable
transmission and no torque converter. They use a wet-pack clutch like on a
motorcycle to do the initial start. So, it has all the advantages of a
stick shift, but my family can drive it, too.

Jon
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On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 16:21:44 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper.


Well, adding more gear ratios and the lock-up torque converter helped the
mileage a bit. Now, I have a hybrid that has a continuously variable
transmission and no torque converter. They use a wet-pack clutch like on a
motorcycle to do the initial start. So, it has all the advantages of a
stick shift, but my family can drive it, too.


Thanks. I'm told there's little difference between the gas mileage of
a stick versus an automatic. For example, my current 2001 Subaru
Forester is rated at 21 mpg with either transmission.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=17279&id=17278
Left column is manual transmission while the right column is
automatic. My Acar Android program has about 8 years of mileage
records and shows an average of 22.673 mpg over a distance of 47,215
miles and 2,000.50 gallons of the cheapest regular I can find. This
is a 16 year old vehicle, which does not have the benefits of the
technology you mention, yet still has identical rated gas mileage for
manual and automatic. I suspect the reason lies elsewhere.

Even if the gas mileage was better for an automatic, I would still
prefer driving a manual transmission. I don't feel like it's driving
without the stick. There's probably some symbolism there, but I'll
pretend not to notice.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:26:28 -0500, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

In October I bought a brand new 2012 Mustang convertible with the stick
shift. (It had 200 or so miles on it--it had got caught up in the
Takata airbag mess, so the dealer couldn't sell it for ages.) Got a
nice discount too--it wound up being the price of my daughter's Kia
econobox.


He must have been glad to get rid of it after five years depreciating
in storage. Congratulations.

I once bought a new 1967 Mustang (after I trashed my mother's car).
200 cid engine, 3 speed manual transmission (of course), and zero
options. It was truly an economy car. At the time, I was working
part time at a local Ford dealer, so I got a good deal and was later
able to economically deal with the inevitable broken parts. It was
the worst car I had ever owned. All the weight was over the engine.
If I tried hard, I could spin the wheels in any of the 3 speeds.
Traction in snow or mud was non-existent. Because the rear end was so
light, the leaf springs on the rear were not very stiff. When I
loaded the trunk with about 250 lbs of Motorola 40V, 80D, and 160D
radios, the rear end sank. The range of adjustment for the headlights
was not enough to make the light beams level again. I could go on
forever complaining about the Mustang. However, that was 1967 and
presumably Ford has learned a few things in the intervening 50 years.

Newer cars are full of surveillance devices, which I cordially dislike.


Yep. One of the casualties in the rush towards progress is the loss
of privacy. I'm told that this is now the "information age" which
makes little distinction between public and private information. The
loss of privacy sucks, but is survivable. Think of it like the
Japanese shoji paper curtains. There's little real privacy with
those, but if everyone pretends not to notice what's happening on the
other side, one can get the illusion of privacy. I think that's where
we're heading. Every data collecting entity knows what's happening,
but as long as they don't do anything with the data, you have the
illusion of privacy. When those entities abuse your information is
where the problems begin. I don't believe we can stop the collection
of information, but we might have a chance stopping anyone from using
what it collects.

Cheers
Phil Hobbs

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:49:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 16:21:44 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper.


Well, adding more gear ratios and the lock-up torque converter helped the
mileage a bit. Now, I have a hybrid that has a continuously variable
transmission and no torque converter. They use a wet-pack clutch like on a
motorcycle to do the initial start. So, it has all the advantages of a
stick shift, but my family can drive it, too.


Thanks. I'm told there's little difference between the gas mileage of
a stick versus an automatic. For example, my current 2001 Subaru
Forester is rated at 21 mpg with either transmission.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=17279&id=17278
Left column is manual transmission while the right column is
automatic. My Acar Android program has about 8 years of mileage
records and shows an average of 22.673 mpg over a distance of 47,215
miles and 2,000.50 gallons of the cheapest regular I can find. This
is a 16 year old vehicle, which does not have the benefits of the
technology you mention, yet still has identical rated gas mileage for
manual and automatic. I suspect the reason lies elsewhere.

Even if the gas mileage was better for an automatic, I would still
prefer driving a manual transmission. I don't feel like it's driving
without the stick. There's probably some symbolism there, but I'll
pretend not to notice.

I tend to drive my cars almost into the ground because I keep them so
long. I gave my last car away when it had 280,000 miles on it and it
still ran well so I guess it wasn't quite driven into the ground. I
always bought sticks but my most recent car purchase, which will
probably be my last, is an automatic. I chose automatic because they
now, and for some time, have been more reliable than a clutch. They
just plain require less maintenance and last longer. On top of that,
it used to be you could bump start a car with a manual transmission
and a low battery but modern fuel injection requires too much juice
for a bump start with a low battery. So another advantage of the
manual transmission goes away. Besides, I'm not a kid anymore and
don't tend to let my battery go dead or run out of gas because I'm a
little more responsible that I used to be.
Eric
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"Yeah, but he keeps stomping his left foot on the floor where the clutch
pedal is SUPPOSED to be every time he come up to a light or stop sign.
Don't ask how I know about this - 30 years of primarily driving stick. "

He makes another mistake but I am not going to tell him how to drive. He puts it is neutral at stoplights and then jas it into first when it is time to take off.

I don't know about you but I have found that usually the throwout bearing is cheaper and easier to replace than the first gear synchronizers.
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"Ummm, try running Linux! No EULA at all, you are ENCOURAGED to browse the
source code. "

I have a few versions of it kicking around here and have tried them. Too many things to learn how to do on it for now.

Though I might be forced as my old XP and Vista (yuk) will eventually quit. If you see me buying a new version of Windows please shoot me, I mean it.

I have never paid for Windows except in a preloaded machine, and won't and I have no shame about it. Every EULA says I am buying nothing so I'll give them exactly what it is worth. Nothing.

If I live too long, Linux will be inevitable. I might have to take up some hobbies involving very fast cars, lighter than air hydrogen aircraft and the like. (I know how to make hydrogen)
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"I are an engineer (of sorts). All my vehicles have had stick shifts
since about 1970. In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper. I even converted one old vehicle from
automatic to manual (because the junk yard wanted less for the manual
than a rebuild would have cost me for the automatic). Today, it's
purely psychological and maybe a little macho. "

For better or worse you have discarded a few facts. We are a car family, or were until people started dying off. There is one automatic transmission that will outperform a stick in a certain weight class - the THM400.

They do funny things with the torque convertor that makes it take off from the hole at about 5:1. You simply can't put a gearset in a stick that big. I think a bunch of high end luxury cars still use the THM400, rolls maybe or whatever ?

When you put a bigger gearset into a stick it is more prone to failure, which is quite catastophic I mean really don't even try to rebuild it. The valve body in the THM400 is a veritable analog computer running on hydraulics and it really does know better when to shift than you do. The beauty of the THM400 is that the gearset only gets it down to (IIRC) 2.73:1, the torque convertor takes up the rest. Then it smoothly settles to the 2.73:1 and soon thereafter shifts into second. Note that it does not shift out of first, first is still engaged but on a one way clutch. that makes for a smoother shift and actually if you have to tromp on it a smoother downshift as well.

When theey went to front wheel drive trannies got to be a pain. No more onee way clutch in most of them which means if the cable is not set right you get a big clunk as you coast down to a red light. If you are concerned with mileage you know exactly why I mean, you could never feel the old trannies shift like that.

What's worse, if some stupid little solennoid ggoes bad in these new electronically controlled trannnies it throws a code, even though it is only maybe passing gear or whatever, and then you can't get plates. And for some reason, unless he was lied to bigtime, I know someone who had a Ford with a Triton V8 that when three solenoids went bad in the tranny it mimiced the symptoms of jumped cam timing. I still think he was lied to but why would his mechanic go and have some valves replaced in the interference engine and do the timing irons instead of just replacing three solenoids ?

And now cars run Windows ? They gotta be kidding.

I want a 1967 Chevy. I liked my 1970 Toronado, but really it was trouble waiting to happen. First of all it was too fast. It could be beat but not in traffic. Plus every part cost a fortune, even the muffler was $300. (evacuator system) Too much, I need to get from point A to point B, and just as important back to point A. That means I do not need ridiculously priced parts on the car that have to be ordered from bum****t Sweden somewhere.

Hell, give me a model T and a propane heater.
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"In October I bought a brand new 2012 Mustang convertible with the stick
shift. (It had 200 or so miles on it--it had got caught up in the
Takata airbag mess, so the dealer couldn't sell it for ages.) Got a
nice discount too--it wound up being the price of my daughter's Kia
econobox. "

Well first of all you just disconnect those air bags and watch where you are going. I bet you still can in a 2012, but you may have to put a resistor in there or something to simulate a load.

One thing that probably helped your negotiations on that car was that people today don't really go for stick shifts. They have to play farmville, text and talk on the phone whilst keeping an eye on their chipped dog and watching insidd their house to see if anyone is stealing their plasma TV. Also they have to update their facebook every three minutes or their dear friends (who would kill them in an alley usually) don't think they're dead. Or something.


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"I once bought a new 1967 Mustang (after I trashed my mother's car).
200 cid engine, 3 speed manual transmission (of course), and zero
options. It was truly an economy car. "

I had a couple of Pintos. both stick. In fact that was when I started playing around with valve timing and learned quite a bit. then later Porsche or someone came out with variable valve timing. Whoever Ford bought for a while...

There are models that have not only vaariable valve timing but also direct cylinder fuel ijection. these are high end models and unfortunately with those you are stuck with their electronics, if you can call it that.

But I did notice things. Turn the camone way offf and you can slip your foot o ff the clutch in third and it peels tires and does not stall. however in NO GEAR wil it do over 45 MPH. Go the other way and you have to feather the clutch in, even in first gear, as if you were taking off in third. But past a certain RPM the thing would take off like a bat out of hell. So obviously making it variable is a good idea and I tried to work out some sort of mechanical arrangement to do so but I had no machines, not even a bandsaw, and I never could weld. So much for that.
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"On top of that,
it used to be you could bump start a car with a manual transmission
and a low battery but modern fuel injection requires too much juice
for a bump start with a low battery"

There are other problems. When you turn the key on it only charges the fuel system for a few seconds.

And yes, I found out one day that some cars actually use more juice running than starting. Between the ridiculous firing current and voltage, then you got anywhere from four to sixteen fuel injectors. The car would literally crank but not start unless it had a jump.
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"From things I have read it seems that some of the onboard computers are
getting to be about like the 'black boxes' on airplanes. There was some
talk of letting the police download the data in accidents to see what
the speed of the car was and other things. "

Years ago there was a politician who had a wreck and insisted on a sobreity test. There was speculation that he tried to kill himself but without a fit of morality I don't see why.

Of course it was all forgotten in a few days, as is the tradition here, but I have my own speculation. One of the reasons he insisted on the test is because the road was icy and I suspect he was going off the road and spinning his wheels trying to get back on. In such a case the black box would have reported the vehicle speed at probably 120 MPH or whatever when it was going maybe 40 MPH with the gas to the metal and the wheel turned toward the road.

There are at least a plethora of news stories about which I would like to see the followup. The problem is I guess you simply have to take names, literally. Like the doctor who filed for a variance on a gag act about discussing his nephrology patients' kidney problems brought on by fracking materials, I remember the name Rodriguez and that it was Pennsylvania where they judge pretty much told him to **** off, but to more easily get to the story I would have to remember his first name because he has a common last name.

It is impractiacl to save searches and also to bookmark anything because then you have 150,000 entries and can't make heads nor tails out of anything. so things get forgotten, like for example that Assad did not use the gas. Like a whole bunch of other things that get swept under the rug.

I know people who stupidly (well they are stupid) kept their dead Mother's body on storage for eight months. They did this because their Father was just ending a sentence in Utah and the one son had power of attorney though the Mother to dispense his affairs and he had PERS, which was a nice retirement. Well they got caught with eight UNCASHED SS checks of the Mother's and the news said they did it for her SS money. Now if they had done that, why would they be in possession of all the UNCASHED checks ? And her checks were chump change compared to his, but they had to keep that power of attorney alive until he got out.

I have seen many many other things and simply do not watch anymore. I sometimes watch the weather, and half the time that is wrong. world affairs, I will go to RT and PressTV first, then check it with the BBC and a few other places. I fact, foreign sources often have more precise coverage of US domestic issues though they put one hell of a liberal slant on it.

Like Australians, think we should take in all these refugees, but what do they do with them ? They keep them on an island ! Bunch of ****ing hypocrites. and now Trump got in an argument with their PM. So what ?

Yup, 1967 Chevy, 283 and a stick, even a three on the tree. you know three speeds had better gears than many four speeds back then. The smaller and stronger gearset did not deliver the ratios and taking off in first was like somewhere between taking off in second and third. so them you needed to change the rear end and then you are doing 4,800 RPM at 60 MPH. So now you need a cam and a bore out and more carbs.

I drove a bunch of them and I remember - "Did I just shift or not ?". Bunch of junk really. Yeah, you could almost never blow a Muncie, but you sure did want to. Boatanchor.

I wonder what these black boxes do with a stick shift. Like asking that blode "What gear were you i n at the time of impact ?", "Oh, Nikes and a sweatsuit".
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wrote:

"Ummm, try running Linux! No EULA at all, you are ENCOURAGED to browse
the

source code. "

I have a few versions of it kicking around here and have tried them. Too
many things to learn how to do on it for now.

Though I might be forced as my old XP and Vista (yuk) will eventually
quit. If you see me buying a new version of Windows please shoot me, I
mean it.


If your Iphone, Samsung, etc... is regularly plugged in and out of the tower's jack, I don't see why your 2007 version (or better) of Windows would ever crash.
I've heard that the new Windows 10 has made big changes, especially on the graphics and PC gaming side.


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wrote:

."The problem is that anything to do with the emission control
system has to be certified to not alter the emissions of the car.
Hmmm, maybe won't matter a lot on a 30 year old car (if it even
HAD a computer). But, making after market replacement parts for
any part of the emissions system has to go through a lot more
than somebody making a wiper motor or a fender. "

Many 30 year old cars had computers. They were basic, just controlled
fuel mixture and ignition timing. Actually, after studying them
a bit I find that it almost doesn't matter how many cylinders
there are except for idle speed. Later one fire the injectors
in pairs or possibly single at a time in which case you need a
cam pulse to know what cylinder you're on.


These days its tough to tell what microprocessing helps do that. I'm not familiar with anything except bull****ting around on a few construction/remodeling sites. I don't know crap regarding auto and diesel, but I've heard of everything from two-strokes to 'v' and inline sixes on 18-wheelers. The new Ford Mustang is switching from a v6 to a v8. Some military combat vehicles have 10 and 12 cylinders. I guess its regarding the right torque, kinetic energy and inertia at the right time somewhere along the drive chain.
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On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 3:25:05 AM UTC-8, wrote:
."The problem is that anything to do with the emission control system has to
be certified to not alter the emissions of the car. ...


Many 30 year old cars had computers. They were basic, just controlled fuel mixture and ignition timing.


I've got a computer in a car that old, and it's NOT basic, there's a bunch of
solenoid drivers for vacuum control valves... or thermactors, or somesuch.

The microprocessor is of the MCS-96 family, the whole line of which was obsoleted
by Intel a decade ago.
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"I've got a computer in a car that old, and it's NOT basic, there's a bunch of
solenoid drivers for vacuum control valves... or thermactors, or somesuch. "

Sounds like a computer controlled carburated engine. Those were a bad marriage. When they finally got to fuel injection it was much better. Seems like GM was the first, while others stuck with the clunky barbs with the enrichment solenoid. A pure mess really.
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On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 6:42:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:49:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 16:21:44 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In the past, it was because stick shifts got better
gas mileage, and were cheaper.


Well, adding more gear ratios and the lock-up torque converter helped the
mileage a bit. Now, I have a hybrid that has a continuously variable
transmission and no torque converter. They use a wet-pack clutch like on a
motorcycle to do the initial start. So, it has all the advantages of a
stick shift, but my family can drive it, too.


Thanks. I'm told there's little difference between the gas mileage of
a stick versus an automatic. For example, my current 2001 Subaru
Forester is rated at 21 mpg with either transmission.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=17279&id=17278
Left column is manual transmission while the right column is
automatic. My Acar Android program has about 8 years of mileage
records and shows an average of 22.673 mpg over a distance of 47,215
miles and 2,000.50 gallons of the cheapest regular I can find. This
is a 16 year old vehicle, which does not have the benefits of the
technology you mention, yet still has identical rated gas mileage for
manual and automatic. I suspect the reason lies elsewhere.

Even if the gas mileage was better for an automatic, I would still
prefer driving a manual transmission. I don't feel like it's driving
without the stick. There's probably some symbolism there, but I'll
pretend not to notice.

I tend to drive my cars almost into the ground because I keep them so
long. I gave my last car away when it had 280,000 miles on it and it
still ran well so I guess it wasn't quite driven into the ground.

Hah, mee too. But around here in the winter they use a lot of salt...
and I guess that just brings the ground closer... (I'm happy
if I get 200k.) I buy little commuter cars, and just can't find many
with a stick... so my last two cars have been auto.
I down shift going down my hill, but that's about it.

George H.
always bought sticks but my most recent car purchase, which will
probably be my last, is an automatic. I chose automatic because they
now, and for some time, have been more reliable than a clutch. They
just plain require less maintenance and last longer. On top of that,
it used to be you could bump start a car with a manual transmission
and a low battery but modern fuel injection requires too much juice
for a bump start with a low battery. So another advantage of the
manual transmission goes away. Besides, I'm not a kid anymore and
don't tend to let my battery go dead or run out of gas because I'm a
little more responsible that I used to be.
Eric


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