Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).

Thanks!

Doug White
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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips screw,
called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it, it's not
really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in the
process.

Michael
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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

On 26/12/16 19:12, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it,
it's not really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in
the process.

Michael

Are you thinking of a pozidrive screw, if so a Phillips screwdriver
shouldn't be used. See
http://bsfixings.uk/the-difference-b...and-pozi-screw and
http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/q...-phillips-head
and others. They're commonly mistaken and the wrong drivers used with
the wrong screw potentially damages both the driver and the screw.
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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:12:39 -0500
Michael Black wrote:

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips screw,
called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it, it's not
really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in the
process.


Maybe "Pozidriv" I use to run in to them while working on two-way
radios. I had a couple special screwdrivers just for them. A regular
Philips would work but was sloppy. They usually had four cut marks on
the screw head for identification. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rives#Pozidriv

There are several more possibilities too. Check out the link...

As far as screwdrivers... I tend to use 1/4 inch inserts when ever
possible. Save the real screwdrivers for those deep holes where inserts
won't work. They last much longer that way. I haven't bought any "good"
ones for some time now. Nowadays it would be a guessing game. What was
great and you bought a year ago could be re-sourced now and crap, yet
look exactly the same...

I also use the Harbor Freight freebie set for stuff that doesn't need a
good screwdriver

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

David Billington wrote in
news
On 26/12/16 19:12, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and
the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick
vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I
had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish
the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it,
it's not really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in
the process.

Michael

Are you thinking of a pozidrive screw, if so a Phillips screwdriver
shouldn't be used. See
http://bsfixings.uk/the-difference-b...and-pozi-screw and
http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/q...it-a-bad-idea-

to-
use-a-pozidriv-screwdriver-on-a-phillips-head and others. They're
commonly mistaken and the wrong drivers used with the wrong screw
potentially damages both the driver and the screw.


The screws I was working on this morning appear to be Phillips. At
least there is no sign of the extra cross in the heads. I'm not sure
how common Posi-Drive is these days. I tend to buy most of my hardware
from McMaster Carr, and it's all regular Phillips. They don't even list
Posi-Drive as an option, and they have quite a range of drive styles
available.

It's possible that I've run into some Posi-Drives in the past, but the
vast majority of the screws I see these days are plain old Phillips. I
think Xcelite just isn't very careful with shaping the points on their
drivers. Either that, or the screw manufacturers are making a lot of
"Phillips" screws with shallow sockets. Or both...

Doug White


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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:12:39 -0500, Michael Black wrote:

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips screw,
called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it, it's not
really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in the
process.

This would probably be a "JIS" screw. I have some Vessel brand and Wiha
drivers that fit them well.
--
Mr.E
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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?


"Doug White" wrote in message
...
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.


Firstly; AFAICR: Xcelite are part of the Cooper Tools group - The weller
TCP1 soldering iron was pretty much the industry standard - till the bean
counters at Cooper Tools decided that quality and reliability was an
unnecessary extravagance.

There are various standards for crosspoint screw heads. You can get Philips
and Posidrive just for starters - if you don't use the right tool; rapid
failure is a certainty.

Another I've encountered is the screws on Japanese motorcycles, an impact
driver didn't do any better than a regular T-bar screwdriver. Then I noticed
the bottom of the cross was peened shiny - the point of the screwdriver was
too long and the side blades were only half engaging. Just grazing the point
of the screwdriver bit on the grinder, allowed it to fully seat into the
crosspoint head. There was no more trouble after that.

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"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1612261411400.23783@darkstar. example.org...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips screw,
called something else,


It has an alphanumeric designation.

The crosspoint head is shallower so the point of the bit bottoms out and the
side blades only half engage.

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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 19:35:10 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

David Billington wrote in
news
On 26/12/16 19:12, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and
the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick
vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I
had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish
the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it,
it's not really a match?

So either you can't open the screws, or it ruins the screwdriver in
the process.

Michael

Are you thinking of a pozidrive screw, if so a Phillips screwdriver
shouldn't be used. See
http://bsfixings.uk/the-difference-b...and-pozi-screw and
http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/q...it-a-bad-idea-

to-
use-a-pozidriv-screwdriver-on-a-phillips-head and others. They're
commonly mistaken and the wrong drivers used with the wrong screw
potentially damages both the driver and the screw.


The screws I was working on this morning appear to be Phillips. At
least there is no sign of the extra cross in the heads. I'm not sure
how common Posi-Drive is these days. I tend to buy most of my hardware
from McMaster Carr, and it's all regular Phillips. They don't even list
Posi-Drive as an option, and they have quite a range of drive styles
available.

It's possible that I've run into some Posi-Drives in the past, but the
vast majority of the screws I see these days are plain old Phillips. I
think Xcelite just isn't very careful with shaping the points on their
drivers. Either that, or the screw manufacturers are making a lot of
"Phillips" screws with shallow sockets. Or both...

Doug White

I think it is both. Crappy Chinese screws built to miss a loose
standard combined with the same philosophy in building screw-drivers.

Actually many of the "international" screwdrivers are closer to a
Frearson or Reed-Prince driver. The Frearson (reed prince) has a sharp
point on the driver. Reed-Prince (Frearson) screws have a sharp square
corner on each quarter of the head, while a philips has a rounded
corner. A PoziDrived has the 4 light lines to identify it.

The drivers are NOT interchangeable.

Then you ban ad the JIS screws - The B1012s which are used on a lot of
Japanese equipment - if not too tight a Philips driver will work, but
the strip out if too tight. Actually closer to the Frearson driver
profile. but the Frearson cross slot is of a smaller diameter than the
JIS.


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In article ,
Doug White wrote:


It's possible that I've run into some Posi-Drives in the past, but the
vast majority of the screws I see these days are plain old Phillips. I
think Xcelite just isn't very careful with shaping the points on their
drivers. Either that, or the screw manufacturers are making a lot of
"Phillips" screws with shallow sockets. Or both...


Doug-

Granted that some Phillips screwdrivers are made of soft metal. However
most of my problems have been related to using the wrong size Phillips.
In your original post, you mentioned using #0, #1 and #2 on the same
screws.

I have found some Phillips drivers in auto parts stores that claimed to
be heat-treated. They seem to last longer, but eventually become
rounded as well.

Perhaps the suggestion to use "inserts" would do the job. I
occasionally use Phillips bits with a drill/driver, and have not had one
go bad yet. I think the drill/driver would be more abusive than a plain
Phillips screwdriver.

Fred
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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

Fred McKenzie wrote in news:fmmck-C67AE6.15484126122016@
46.sub-75-242-165.myvzw.com:

In article ,
Doug White wrote:


It's possible that I've run into some Posi-Drives in the past, but

the
vast majority of the screws I see these days are plain old Phillips.

I
think Xcelite just isn't very careful with shaping the points on

their
drivers. Either that, or the screw manufacturers are making a lot of
"Phillips" screws with shallow sockets. Or both...


Doug-

Granted that some Phillips screwdrivers are made of soft metal.

However
most of my problems have been related to using the wrong size

Phillips.
In your original post, you mentioned using #0, #1 and #2 on the same
screws.

I have found some Phillips drivers in auto parts stores that claimed

to
be heat-treated. They seem to last longer, but eventually become
rounded as well.

Perhaps the suggestion to use "inserts" would do the job. I
occasionally use Phillips bits with a drill/driver, and have not had

one
go bad yet. I think the drill/driver would be more abusive than a

plain
Phillips screwdriver.


The screws I was fighting with today were down in deep holes, so there
was no way I could use an insert driver. The screws were small, and
looked to be well suited to a #1. When that didn't work, I managed to
get enough of a purchase with a #2 to get them out. One was in a
smaller hole (same sized screw), and I could only get the #1 down it.
If anything, I would have called the screws 1.5's...

The reason I mention #0, #1, & #2 was that I seem to have the most
trouble with the Xcelite #1 drivers. Both examples I have are more
pointy for their size than either the #0 or #2, and both #1's have the
tips trashed. I don't recall if I bought them at the same time, but I
don't think so.

Doug White
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"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1612261411400.23783@darkstar. example.org...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and
the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick
vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I
had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish
the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else,


It has an alphanumeric designation.

The crosspoint head is shallower so the point of the bit bottoms out
and the side blades only half engage.


That sounds suspiciously like what I ran into today. Of course, it's
impossible to tell when they are an inch down a narrow hole.

I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.

Doug White
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"Doug White" wrote in message
...
"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1612261411400.23783@darkstar. example.org...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and
the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick
vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I
had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish
the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else,


It has an alphanumeric designation.

The crosspoint head is shallower so the point of the bit bottoms out
and the side blades only half engage.


That sounds suspiciously like what I ran into today. Of course, it's
impossible to tell when they are an inch down a narrow hole.

I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


Put some engineer's blue (or correction fluid) on the end of the
screwdriver, seat it in the screw head and give it a sharp tap with
something.

You may find that the coating on the pointy tip is compacted - you could
maybe try grinding a very small bit off the pointy bit and see if it gives
you more purchase.

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"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Doug White" wrote in message
...
"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1612261411400.23783@darkstar. example.org...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago,
and the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead
stick vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes,
and I had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to
finish the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the
tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else,

It has an alphanumeric designation.

The crosspoint head is shallower so the point of the bit bottoms out
and the side blades only half engage.


That sounds suspiciously like what I ran into today. Of course, it's
impossible to tell when they are an inch down a narrow hole.

I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


Put some engineer's blue (or correction fluid) on the end of the
screwdriver, seat it in the screw head and give it a sharp tap with
something.

You may find that the coating on the pointy tip is compacted - you
could maybe try grinding a very small bit off the pointy bit and see
if it gives you more purchase.


That may work in the future, but for now, I have two #1 Phillips screw
drivers with trashed tips I need to replace. Which brings me back to my
original question...

Doug White


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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

use a small triangular file for reshaping Phillips

cheap screwdrivers eg Wal are OK...chrome is the problem as witness cheap needle nose vs pro wiring pliers ,,,,but screw drivers as a single part usually doahn rust.

Craftsmen is next.

I have 2 sets inexpensive Chinese mini screws drivers all good near flying saucer steel for that torque range.



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In article ,
Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).


I'm personally a big fan of Wera drivers, or Wiha for some of the
more esoteric stuff. Vessel seems to be highly recommended for JIS
stuff.

- Dan C.

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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 19:04:21 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast.


I use mostly Craftsman (Sears) screwdrivers.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/711LQSOTfOL._SL1000_.jpg
My main driver is a #2 Philips with a long 8" shaft. It fits most
appliances, computers, automotive, and consumer electronics devices.
For small screws, I use a #1 but those are rare.

I was taught to test rotate the screwdriver in the Philips screw head
before applying torque. If the driver is loose, or sloppy, don't use
it or you'll wreck the head, the driver, or both. It should be a good
tight fit, or you'll need to find the correct Philips-like driver. For
those, I have a collection of various Philips-like drivers (Posidriv,
Supadriv, Reed and Prince (Fearson), Sel-o-Fit, B.N.A.E, Lotus head,
Japan Industrial Standard (JIS), French Recess, ACR Philips, Philips
Square-Driv mix, Philips II, etc.
http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/?ALLSTEPS

Note: If you use an electric or pneumatic screwdriver, plan on
trashing screw heads and bits. I've found that I can effectively use
an electric screwdriver to remove screws, but even with a clutch, I
would strip heads and break tips when tightening screws.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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I used to use those Xcelites and had the same complaints. Boss is always going on about Wiha and he's right. The Wiha 31115 is your basic #2 screwdriver to replace the 'black handle' Xcelites. DigiKey has them for $9 in single quantity. I now have #000, #00, #0, #1 and #2. They fit like few others.

G²
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"Doug White" wrote in message
...
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

..
I have worked on computers and cell phones for a living for the last 20
some years. I discovered Japan Cross (JIS) drivers early on. I use these
Hozan JIS for the most part, mine are an earlier version but the steel is
good and hard and fit the screws precisely. Rarely strip one unless someone
has used a phillips on them before me. Most laptop screws have a drop of
loctite applied to them from the factory, so they are tough to start
sometimes. For my work these four sizes work for most all, but I use small
torx bits quite a bit now days too.
https://www.amazon.com/Hozn-JIS-4-JI.../dp/B00A7WAHTU



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In rec.crafts.metalworking Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).


I'm with you on the black Xcelites. They're good, unless you're dealing
with ****ty screws, which they cam out of.

There's no way in hell any vacuum cleaner is going to be made with JIS or
Pozidrive screws. Cheap, soft, poorly formed screws? You bet.

I have a feeling that the stainless steel screwdrivers from Craftsman with
the blue handles are a bit harder than usual steel drivers. If I need to
do something ugly like hammer a screwdriver into place, then torque it, I
grab one of those and they do well, and aren't silly priced. Mine were
made in the USA, but hell, they could be chinese junk now.

I've fussed with Wera "lasertip" drivers with ribbed tips that grip crappy
fasteners at trade shows, and they seemed OK. Never bought a set though.
Their website is unbearable to look at, so I've never located part numbers
and tried a tool distributor.

Wiha phillips drivers in the #1 and #2 side seem to run real small (too
narrow and too pointy), and slip out. Not impressed at all, and the #2 is
useless for standard electrical type work such as installing outlets.
Their precision drivers are good though.

For small JIS drivers, go Moody tools. They're made in the USA, and of
acceptable quality for the most part. I used these on camera gear, which
is JIS, and not phillips. You can really feel the difference. JIS drivers
on JIS screws do not feel like they want to cam out.

Never been dissapointed with a real Klein driver either. They work great.
The imitation stuff is horrible though.
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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:37:45 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Doug White" wrote in message
...
"Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote in
:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1612261411400.23783@darkstar. example.org...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite
Phillips screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I
outfitted my electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago,
and the #1 Phillips tip is already toast. I took apart a dead
stick vacuum cleaner today that had a dozen screws down in holes,
and I had to get my other #1 driver from my woodworking toolbox to
finish the job. It is also showing signs of excess wear on the
tip.

Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else,

It has an alphanumeric designation.

The crosspoint head is shallower so the point of the bit bottoms out
and the side blades only half engage.

That sounds suspiciously like what I ran into today. Of course, it's
impossible to tell when they are an inch down a narrow hole.

I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


Put some engineer's blue (or correction fluid) on the end of the
screwdriver, seat it in the screw head and give it a sharp tap with
something.

You may find that the coating on the pointy tip is compacted - you
could maybe try grinding a very small bit off the pointy bit and see
if it gives you more purchase.


That may work in the future, but for now, I have two #1 Phillips screw
drivers with trashed tips I need to replace. Which brings me back to my
original question...

Doug White

The only craftsman philips drivers I ever damaged were replaced
without a question. I think it was 2 in over 40 years.
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"I have two #1 Phillips screw
drivers with trashed tips I need to replace."

Try grinding the end of the tip some and using them as a #2. That solves the problem of under broached heads. This is when the broaching tool wears out and does not go deep enough.

Years ago I had some #2s that were so good you could stick them in the screws in the sides of a VCR and they would stay there, supporting their own weight. Off brand, buck apiece at an auto parts store. Once I bought a couple and found out how good they are I went back and bought them all. But that was like 20 years ago and they are all gone. I cut some of the handles off for use i drilldrivers as well and they seemed to hold up.

There are also variants. For contractor use, Milwaukee makes a slightly different one. Only available as an insert though. But if you need to drive a four inch decking screw into a 2X4 and 4X4 and have a powerful enough drill, they grab well enough to break the head of the screw off. Had it happen, and those were some pretty beefy screws. These inserts are slightly narrower than a normal #2 and you can see the tip is cut a bit differently. Like they don't intend for it to bottom out.
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 02:26:16 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

In rec.crafts.metalworking Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).


I'm with you on the black Xcelites. They're good, unless you're dealing
with ****ty screws, which they cam out of.

There's no way in hell any vacuum cleaner is going to be made with JIS or
Pozidrive screws. Cheap, soft, poorly formed screws? You bet.


Soft ****ty poorly formed JIS screws also exist - in cheap, ****ty,
poorly made Japanese vacuums. Not nearly as common as they used to be
(japanese quality is generally pretty good today)

I have a feeling that the stainless steel screwdrivers from Craftsman with
the blue handles are a bit harder than usual steel drivers. If I need to
do something ugly like hammer a screwdriver into place, then torque it, I
grab one of those and they do well, and aren't silly priced. Mine were
made in the USA, but hell, they could be chinese junk now.

I've fussed with Wera "lasertip" drivers with ribbed tips that grip crappy
fasteners at trade shows, and they seemed OK. Never bought a set though.
Their website is unbearable to look at, so I've never located part numbers
and tried a tool distributor.

Wiha phillips drivers in the #1 and #2 side seem to run real small (too
narrow and too pointy), and slip out. Not impressed at all, and the #2 is
useless for standard electrical type work such as installing outlets.
Their precision drivers are good though.

For small JIS drivers, go Moody tools. They're made in the USA, and of
acceptable quality for the most part. I used these on camera gear, which
is JIS, and not phillips. You can really feel the difference. JIS drivers
on JIS screws do not feel like they want to cam out.

Never been dissapointed with a real Klein driver either. They work great.
The imitation stuff is horrible though.


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The screws are likely metric and don't fit tight as the Imperial ones
do. Martin


On 12/26/2016 1:04 PM, Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).

Thanks!

Doug White



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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

On Monday, December 26, 2016 at 11:20:30 AM UTC-8, David Billington wrote:
On 26/12/16 19:12, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast.


Isn't the issue that there is some Japanese variant of the Phillips
screw, called something else, so while nominally a Phillips fits it,
it's not really a match?


Are you thinking of a pozidrive screw, if so a Phillips screwdriver
shouldn't be used.


Alas, it's not that simple. Pozidrive is licensed by Phillips just like Phillips is,
the Japanese use JIS standards instead.

Frearson (aka Reed and Prince) is a fourth standard; that one, rarely slips
and doesn't have multiple sizes with different shapes. It's rare, though.
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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:00:39 GMT
Doug White wrote:

snip
I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


I bought this cheapo Harbor Freight set to get the special bit for Game
Boy Dual Screens:

http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piec...ers-97517.html

Those bits aren't 1/4 inch but rather 5/32 inch. I was able to use it
with a small torx bit to get down into a deep hole that my 1/4 bits
couldn't.

Nothing special but it has already paid for itself. Figure it should
last for awhile if I only use it when necessary...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 18:54:24 -0700, "Larry Fisk"
wrote:


"Doug White" wrote in message
2...
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

.
I have worked on computers and cell phones for a living for the last 20
some years. I discovered Japan Cross (JIS) drivers early on. I use these
Hozan JIS for the most part, mine are an earlier version but the steel is
good and hard and fit the screws precisely. Rarely strip one unless someone
has used a phillips on them before me. Most laptop screws have a drop of
loctite applied to them from the factory, so they are tough to start
sometimes. For my work these four sizes work for most all, but I use small
torx bits quite a bit now days too.
https://www.amazon.com/Hozn-JIS-4-JI.../dp/B00A7WAHTU


I gave up trying to exactly differentiate screw types a long time ago.
Some others came to a similar conclusion.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...rivers-review/
Now if a driver seems to camming too much, I just try a different
driver or when I can, resort to an impact driver (hammer type) which
is an indispensable tool sometimes, especially for old motorcycle
stuff. http://www.dansmc.com/impactdriver.jpg
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On Monday, December 26, 2016 at 12:04:23 PM UTC-7, Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast.


I learned long ago to use a "Japanese screwdriver for a Japanese screw". At length, it means use an ISO tip with ISO screws a JIS tip with a JIS screw, a Philips tip with a Philips screw, and a Pozidrive tip with a Pozidrive screw. I use Hozan for most Asian heads, Euro Stanley for Pozidrive and Xcelite for USA Philips. I have security bit tip sets for the occasional ****er-offer. Yea, I have a lot of money invested in tools as I have drawers full of brands and sizes. But it is an investment that pays. Hozan for instance make driver sets with interchangeable tips. This can save money.

Klay
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"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:00:39 GMT
Doug White wrote:

snip
I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


I bought this cheapo Harbor Freight set to get the special bit for
Game
Boy Dual Screens:

http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piec...ers-97517.html

Those bits aren't 1/4 inch but rather 5/32 inch. I was able to use
it
with a small torx bit to get down into a deep hole that my 1/4 bits
couldn't.

Nothing special but it has already paid for itself. Figure it should
last for awhile if I only use it when necessary...

--
Leon Fisk


I was in an RC hobby store and asked about JIC and Posidrive
screwdrivers, which they didn't carry. Maybe they don't torque the
screws in models hard enough to notice the difference?

They did have EC5 connectors and 10 AWG Silicone rubber insulated wire
to connect to a Lithium jump starter pack, so I can measure its real
Amp-Hour capacity and misuse it with other loads.
-jsw




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Default Best Phillips Screwdrivers?

In rec.crafts.metalworking wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 02:26:16 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

In rec.crafts.metalworking Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).


I'm with you on the black Xcelites. They're good, unless you're dealing
with ****ty screws, which they cam out of.

There's no way in hell any vacuum cleaner is going to be made with JIS or
Pozidrive screws. Cheap, soft, poorly formed screws? You bet.


Soft ****ty poorly formed JIS screws also exist - in cheap, ****ty,
poorly made Japanese vacuums. Not nearly as common as they used to be
(japanese quality is generally pretty good today)


Yeah yeah, and the OP is fixing time capsule vacuum cleaners for a museum.

There's got to be some strange dull pointed phillips "standard" in China
for bad screws.
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:41:12 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
I was in an RC hobby store and asked about JIC and Posidrive
screwdrivers, which they didn't carry. Maybe they don't torque the
screws in models hard enough to notice the difference?


A lot of people think they are all "Phillips" and that some
screwdrivers just work better than others...

I always tried to take pride in my repair work. I wanted stuff to look
as good or better than when it came in. Jimmied up screw slots were not
"professional" work in my opinion.

The Game Boy I was working on was one I found along the road and had
been well used/abused. Not to mention it was in the spring and the snow
was still melting. I managed to get four of the five special headed
screws out by wedging the slot with a jewelers straight blade. The last
one broke the side off my screwdriver. Crap!

Even with the new, proper bit from HF it came out really hard. I was
surprised it didn't break the bit. It looked amazingly well inside yet.
No corrosion to speak of. The problem was corrosion on the cartridge
connector pins. Got it working and that ended my "fun" with a Dual
Screen Game Boy.

Next time I get close to one of the local hobby shops I'll have to see
what kind of odd items they have. Thanks for the tip

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

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Doug White wrote:

For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

The problem is that Phillips is only ONE of the standards for cross-recess
screw heads. There is also Reed and Prince, ISO, Japanese and military
cross recess. The Phillips tip will generally turn these others, but is not
a good fit, and will quickly get the gripping surfaces rounded off.

Jon
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:41:12 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:00:39 GMT
Doug White wrote:

snip
I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


I bought this cheapo Harbor Freight set to get the special bit for
Game
Boy Dual Screens:

http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piec...ers-97517.html

Those bits aren't 1/4 inch but rather 5/32 inch. I was able to use
it
with a small torx bit to get down into a deep hole that my 1/4 bits
couldn't.

Nothing special but it has already paid for itself. Figure it should
last for awhile if I only use it when necessary...

--
Leon Fisk


I was in an RC hobby store and asked about JIC and Posidrive
screwdrivers, which they didn't carry. Maybe they don't torque the
screws in models hard enough to notice the difference?

They did have EC5 connectors and 10 AWG Silicone rubber insulated wire
to connect to a Lithium jump starter pack, so I can measure its real
Amp-Hour capacity and misuse it with other loads.
-jsw

That wire usually has very fine strands, so is very flexible and can
carry an extraordinary amount of current. Still not big enough for
some of the old battery powered 2 meter gliders. They used to call
those "flying welders", because if one crashed, that's what it looked
like when you shorted about 48 C sized nicad cells.

Pete Keillor
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"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:41:12 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:
.......

Next time I get close to one of the local hobby shops I'll have to
see
what kind of odd items they have. Thanks for the tip

--
Leon Fisk


Except for carbon fiber extrusions and high current battery connectors
the stock and tool selection hasn't changed much in decades. I
mentioned these low-cost meters
https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Re...&node=15729811
and the owner said they don't try to compete with the Internet on that
stuff.
-jsw




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On 2016-12-26, Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.


O.K. The first thing is that the proper Phillips tip *looks*
too big fro the screw. The wings extend beyond the slots in the screw
head..

The test (with a new tip) is to put it in loosely and feel for
play ifyou gently try to rotate it with your fingertips on the shank.
If it feels a bit loose, it is too small -- go to the next size up.

Aside from this -- there are screw heads which look similar, but
are not. Reed and Prince is one such. That one has a different point
shape, too.

As for what I find better overall are long shank 1/4"
screwdriver bits without handles. They can plug into handles, or into
electric screwdrivers/torque-limiting drills, or even into small ratchet
wrenches at need. They are forged from harder metals than consumer
grade screwdrivers.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.


This is because (as I mentioned above) it is likely too small
for the screw. Often (for flat-head screws) the diameter of the screw
head is barely larger than the diameter of the screwdriver shank.

Way back when, I got some screwdrivers from Snap-On, and they
were very good. The handles were a rounded triangle shape, lots of grip
for torque. Plated shank, but unplated tip. However, one of the two
from then (No. 2 Phillips and a common size straight-blade) had the
handle split in two across about the enclosed end of the shank. I don't
know whether it was something like oil attacking the plastic or what,
and they no longer make that shape of handle.

This accellerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.


And -- does the No. 2 point fit into the screws before they are
damaged?

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweller's screwdriver size).


Wiha makes larger ones, too. But make sure that the point fits
the screw before you start to apply torque.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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On 2016-12-26, Doug White wrote:
Fred McKenzie wrote in news:fmmck-C67AE6.15484126122016@
46.sub-75-242-165.myvzw.com:


[ ... ]

Perhaps the suggestion to use "inserts" would do the job. I
occasionally use Phillips bits with a drill/driver, and have not had

one
go bad yet. I think the drill/driver would be more abusive than a

plain
Phillips screwdriver.


The screws I was fighting with today were down in deep holes, so there
was no way I could use an insert driver.


I've found at the local electronics parts place sets of 1/4"
hex drive screwdriver bits about 6" long. The larger ones are hex the
whole way down, but the smaller ones are turned to the proper diameter
for a normal screwdriver so they will if down those deep holes.

BTW -- when using them in a drill with torque limiting the weight of the
rill motor helps apply more axial force to the bit to keep it
irmly seated in he screw, so they do tend to last longer in
such service than you would expect.

And -- remember, the Phillips screw was *designed* to torque
out to limit the chance of wringing off a screw during
production assembly.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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This is what I have - more than just Phillips -

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/439...crewdriver-set

Flats that fit the screws - this makes slips out of the slot rare.

Martin

On 12/27/2016 8:01 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:00:39 GMT
Doug White wrote:

snip
I'll have to investigate getting a special set of drivers for small
appliance repair.


I bought this cheapo Harbor Freight set to get the special bit for Game
Boy Dual Screens:

http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piec...ers-97517.html

Those bits aren't 1/4 inch but rather 5/32 inch. I was able to use it
with a small torx bit to get down into a deep hole that my 1/4 bits
couldn't.

Nothing special but it has already paid for itself. Figure it should
last for awhile if I only use it when necessary...

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Doug White wrote:
For many years now, I have always used the black handle Xcelite Phillips
screwdrivers with the chrome shaft & black tip. I outfitted my
electronics bench with a fresh set a few years ago, and the #1 Phillips
tip is already toast. I took apart a dead stick vacuum cleaner today
that had a dozen screws down in holes, and I had to get my other #1
driver from my woodworking toolbox to finish the job. It is also
showing signs of excess wear on the tip.

One problem is that the #1 tip is very pointy, and I think it is
bottoming out on some screws, which increases its tendency to slip.
This accelerates the damage & makes it more likely to slip the next
time. The #2 tip is definitely rounded and no where near as pointy.
The #0 seems to have a some of the same issue, but not as pronounced.

I'm going to have to replace the #1's (and may get another #0 as well),
and was wondering if folks have a favorite brand that grips screws well
and holds up better. I've had good luck with Wiha drivers in the past,
but mostly for smaller stuff (jeweler's screwdriver size).



Xcelite's quality dropped, after Cooper Tools bought them. Like
every other brand that they've purchased.


--
Never **** off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)
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