Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

Tekkie? actually said:

+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for
less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.


The problem I have is confusion about where the triangles are for toe, and
it has absolutely nothing to do with high school math since the trig
involved is easy (soh, cah, toa) if we only knew where the triangles are.

For example, total toe is specified in *degrees* of all things.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg

Yet, total toe is simply the toe measured at the back of the wheel/tire
combination minus the toe measured at the front of the wheel/tire
combination, both of which are *linear* measurements.

Since toe angles are the same no matter what size the wheel/tire
combination, how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured
in inches?

Since the tire has the same angle the entire time, there is absolutely no
difference in angle between a toe measured at the front of a wheel/tire and
a toe measured at the back of that wheel/tire!

So, sure, I'm confused because total toe is specified in degrees.
But the confusion has nothing to do with high school trig.

Summarized, if total toe is the difference between toe at the rear of the
tire and toe at the front of the tire, yet, the angle of the wheel/tire
combination to the centerline of the vehicle is the *same* no matter how
large a wheel/tire combination is, then how the heck can total toe be
specified in degrees?

https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif
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Bill Vanek actually said:

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a
troll. There is some very simple math involved here.


Hi Bill,

If you can answer this question then it will show that you actually
understand what you call *simple math*.

Here is the question:
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Summarized, that says: If total toe is the difference in toe between the
rear and front of the tire, and if the difference in angles between the
rear and the front of the tire are exactly the same (by definition, since
the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the
same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck
can total toe be specified in degrees?
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Xeno actually said:

You might find these links useful

http://tinyurl.com/jdas8oy


That is a nice total-toe-in-inches to degrees calculator, which takes into
account wheel size, but I'm still a bit confused how total toe can *ever*
be an angle, when the angle at the front of the wheel is exactly the same
as the angle at the rear of the wheel?
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

It's not the math (the math is easy); it's the concept of total toe having
anything whatsoever to do with degrees when it's merely the difference in
toe between the front and rear of the tire when the angle at the front and
the rear is (by virtue of straight lines) exactly the same!

http://tinyurl.com/jud2p3b


In this case of converting toe angle to inches, it's much easier to
visualize why single-wheel toe is specified in degrees.

Here's a diagram I made which shows that concept, which I agree is very
simple trig (soh cah toa):
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and
adjust if required.


Thanks. It seems that the order is "caster, camber, and then toe", in so
much as the two vehicles I have (toyota, bmw) both specify that you adjust
in that order.

Caster affects camber which affects toe so that's why you do it in that
direction.

Intererstingly, from the standpoing of tire wear in normal settings, the
same curve applies which is that caster affects tire wear less than does
camber which affects tire wear less than does toe.

So the order to think of the 3D axis are caster, camber, and toe (in that
order) for the x, y, and z axis.
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tlvp actually said:

So don't measure in inches. If you have tools to measure camber in degrees,
you can surely repurpose them to measure toe-in in degrees also, no?


Let's think about what you just suggested.

While what you said sounds easy, which is that if you can measure camber in
degrees, why can't you measure toe in degrees, your truism ignores the
simple unalterable but very basic fact that the tool uses *gravity* to
measure angles.

That is, gravity-based tools work fine for measuring camber.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/...ffee13e89e.jpg

But how are you going to shift gravity by 90 degrees in order to measure
toe the same way?
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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:37:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a
troll. There is some very simple math involved here.


Hi Bill,

If you can answer this question then it will show that you actually
understand what you call *simple math*.

Here is the question:
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Summarized, that says: If total toe is the difference in toe between the
rear and front of the tire, and if the difference in angles between the
rear and the front of the tire are exactly the same (by definition, since
the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the
same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck
can total toe be specified in degrees?


I replied to your original question days ago, and you ignored that
reply. Regardless of that, your questions have been answered
repeatedly. Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of
the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear
measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a
triangle, which is really basic math. This is my original reply:


Inches depends on the outside diameter of the ti
https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

Minutes to degrees can be found he
http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/tr.../degMinSec.htm

Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are
trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause
any meaningful tire wear. Toe is much more critical, including for
overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout,
and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the
tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can
be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. Toe is much
more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do
it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's
exactly right.

You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will
increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. There
is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied
readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying
to save money is not such a good idea.

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a
challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't
be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are
trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear
purposes, pay someone.


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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:49:28 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

It's not the math (the math is easy); it's the concept of total toe having
anything whatsoever to do with degrees when it's merely the difference in
toe between the front and rear of the tire when the angle at the front and
the rear is (by virtue of straight lines) exactly the same!


That is not at all what total toe means. 0 degrees of toe for a wheel
is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car
(that is a simplification, but it's usable here). Toe is a measure of
the variance in degrees from straight ahead. Total toe is merely they
sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides. So if the
left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0
degrees. That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the
steering wheel will be a bit off-center.

The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only
for distance measure, not angles.
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Joerg Lorenz actually said:

The problem is obviously not the hardware; it is the user.


Jeorg Lorenz,

Why do you pollute this thread with your worthless OT drivel?
You don't know the answer to *any* question asked.
Not one.

Yet, Jeorg Lorenz you pollute the thread nonetheless.
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nospam actually said:

only because you're too stupid to figure out how, particularly after
people repeatedly explain to you exactly how.


nospam,

Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel?
You don't know the answer to *any* question asked in this thread.
Not one.

Yet, nospam, you pollute the thread nonetheless.
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Tekkie? actually said:

The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed?


Tekkie,

Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel?
You don't know the answer to *any* question asked.
Not one.

Yet, you pollute the thread nonetheless.
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amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.


I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers, so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.


I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.


The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.


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Andy Burns actually said:

Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass
chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an
inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be
high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a
joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby.


Thank you Andy for staying on topic and helping to increase the tribal
knowledge here with respect to the accuracy that a smartphone has for
measuring angles.

Apparently a smartphone accelerometer is used for measuring angles, which
fits a camber measurement application, but for the life of me, I don't see
how a smarphone accelerometer can fit a toe-angle application.

Can you?

The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6
minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for
other angles, so even they would be marginal.


Thanks for explaining that the accuracy of the MEMS inclinometer in digital
levels is six to twelve minutes.

This Home Depot blurb says a common 10-inch Husky is "Accurate to 1/10 of a
degree", which is in the range you stated.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-...9403/205999357
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tlvp actually said:

Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always
spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column
of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either :-) .


I think you (yet again) completely missed the point.

The math for single-wheel toe is trivial which even you seem to understand.
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

However, I said I was confused about total toe.

The toe in the front of a wheel/tire combination is the same in degrees as
the toe at the rear of that same wheel/tire combination (and, in fact, no
matter what size the wheel/tire combaination, the toe is the same degrees
of angle).

Yet, total toe is merely the difference in toe from the rear of the
wheel/tire to the front.

And total toe is specified in degrees.
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif
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Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid


Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,

The bimmer has 6 brake hoses though, two of which fray because they're too
close to the exhaust manifold on the I6 (just behind the ABS control
module, which is also too close to the exhaust manifold, even with the heat
sheild that BMW added), so *they* have to be periodically replaced.

Again, I do appreciate that you are one of the very (very) few people on
this newsgroup who know what you're talking about.

Many of the others (e.g., nospam, Tekkie, Jeorg, etc.) are clueless fools
who wouldn't know a bimmer from a beemer if it hit them.
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid


Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.
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Bill Vanek actually said:

Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of
the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear
measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a
triangle, which is really basic math.


I had/have no problem with the trigonometry, since it's simple soh cah toa
stuff, these triangles.

My main problem is where was the triangle.

It seems to me that, if toe is specified in inches, then the triangle
should be specified at some known point off from the center of the wheel to
the centerline of the car.

If they specify toe at any other point than a known point off from the
center of the wheel, then they have to specify how far they are from that
known point for any inches-to-degrees conversion to apply.

Isn't that right?

Inches depends on the outside diameter of the ti
https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm


I completely understand that measuring inches from the tire tread to the
centerline of the car and then using that as the "opposite" in the
trigonometric soh cah toa, will come up with the wrong angle which will be
more and more wrong the further the measurement is taken from the center
point of the wheel.

When they specify toe in inches, why don't they just specify it from the
rim of the wheel (instead of from the tread of the tires?)

Minutes to degrees can be found he
http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/tr.../degMinSec.htm


I can convert with basic sohcahtoa trig but I need to visualize the
triangles first.

Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are
trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause
any meaningful tire wear.


I have learned a lot about this accuracy problem since I opened this
thread, which I can summarize as no basic home tool will get the accuracy
specified by BMW (which is 1 minute for camber).

However, you really don't *need* that accuracy (which is what you are
saying).

An inclinometer will get us to about 1/10th of a degree (six minutes) of
accuracy as stated on thisadvertising blurb:
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...p-00948292000P

A typical smartphone apparently uses either a gyro or a magnetic compass
and accelerometer, which can't get to the same accuracy (it seems) as an
inclinometer can (or so I'm told).

However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so)
is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can
do.

Toe is much more critical, including for
overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout,
and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home.


Static toe is actually easier to measure and harder to measure than camber,
it seems.

It's easier because it's easy to measure distances and then convert those
distances to degrees using basic sohcahtoa trig.

It's harder because you can't easily measure degrees of toe with a typical
inclinometer level or smartphone gyro/compass/accelerometer because they're
based on gravity which is in a different plane for measuring camber angles
as it is for measuring toe angles.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the
tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can
be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation.


BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires, but they don't care about tire
wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I
forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel).
That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe.

Me? I'm ok with zero camber but that can't be obtained (the last alignment
proved that). But I think 1.5 or 1 degrees was what the guy was able to get
me.

So, for me, the camber setting would be to simply put it at the lowest it
will go (least negative) for the bimmer but for the toyota I have a wider
range (where only the front camber can be set because the toyota has a
solid rear axle so nothing is settable).

As for wear, it seem everything goes in this direction:
1. caster
2. camber
3. toe

In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear
is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe
(under typical settings).

It's just x y z planar stuff.

Toe is much
more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do
it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's
exactly right.


I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler
arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on.

So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber.

You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will
increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite.


I'm an old man who has never had a FWD car and I hope that I die before I
ever stoop that low.

So all my questions are for RWD vehicles.

There
is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied
readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying
to save money is not such a good idea.


The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the
shop for double checking. Many shops offer free tests if nothing needs to
be changed; but I would hesitate to take them up on that only because they
can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick.

Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was
nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"?

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a
challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.


Never in my life (and I'm an old man) have I seen a mechanic install a tire
correctly (I use Tire Rack authorized installers), so I suspect it's the
same with alignment.

For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last
alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that
most of this customers don't have a clue.

It's the same with the tire mounting shops. They *know* how to do it right,
but they also know most of their customers don't have a clue so they get
lazy.

I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car
taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't
be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are
trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear
purposes, pay someone.


I think the summary is this simple.

A. Check the alignment at home for the things that can be adjusted.
For my Toyota, that's only caster, camber, and toe in the front, and for my
bimmer, that's only camber and toe on the rear and toe on the front.

B. Adjust if necessary (using a smart phone or inclinometer for camber, and
a tape measure for toe). I'm not sure how to do caster in the toyota since
I only just found out that the caster is adjustable on the toyota.

C. Take it to one of those "free if it's ok" shops, and see what they get
for measurements.

If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn
what can and can't be done.


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Bill Vanek actually said:

That is not at all what total toe means.


If I misunderstand what "total toe" means, then that is probably the root
of my confusion that toe at the front of the wheel is the same angle as toe
at the back of the wheel, yet total toe is specified in angles and (I
thought) that total toe is the difference in toe from the back to the
front.

0 degrees of toe for a wheel
is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car
(that is a simplification, but it's usable here).


I don't understand why that is a *simplification* because it seems to be
true by definition that if the wheel/tire angle to the centerline of the
car is zero, then there is zero static toe.

Dynamic toe might be difference because a suspension uses complex geometry.

Toe is a measure of
the variance in degrees from straight ahead.


Yup. Toe is the angle difference that the wheel/tire is pointing versus
where the centerline of the car is pointing.


Total toe is merely the
sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides.


Ah. If *that* is "total toe" then that's a completely different story!

If "total toe" is simply the toe at the front driver's wheel plus the toe
at the front passenger-side wheel, then that is trivial to understand.

But that's not what others said "total toe" was.
But, you must be right because if total toe was what others said it was
(which is the difference in toe from the back and front of any one wheel),
then it can't possibly be specified in degrees.

So what you explain is "total toe" makes far more sense than what others
explained as total toe.

So if the
left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0
degrees.


That makes sense if we use a definition of total toe which adds up the toe
of each tire on the axle instead of calculating the difference of toe
between the front and back of any one wheel on the axle.

So probably I was misled by someone's (I forget who) explanation that total
toe was the difference in measured toe from the back of the wheel to
centerline and the front of that same wheel to centerline.

That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the
steering wheel will be a bit off-center.


The steering wheel is (mostly) unrelated to alignment but I know what you
mean when you say that. I also know that you were using theoretical numbers
which make sense.

In the real world, the toe is generally similar (if not the same) between
two wheels on the axle (such as 1/32nd of an inch for each wheel, for a
"total toe" using your definition of total toe, of 1/16th of an inch).

The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only
for distance measure, not angles.


That statement makes sense because the angle at the front of the tire with
respect to centerline is the same as the angle at the back of the tire with
respect to centerline - which is why they put individual toe in angles -
because angles are independent of wheel/tire size.

In summary, I was misled by someone's definition of total toe being the
difference in distance between the front and back of a tire to centerline.

If total toe is defined as the combined toe of both wheels on the axle,
then total toe can easily be defined in either inches or in angles.

Now it makes sense.
Thanks!
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On 12/10/2016 6:57 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid


Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.


None of my cars have dual-diagonal lines so I purge the
brake fluid annually on each of them. A burst rusted brake
line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH
I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles,
YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:
0 degrees of toe for a wheel
is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car
(that is a simplification, but it's usable here).


I don't understand why that is a *simplification* because it seems to be
true by definition that if the wheel/tire angle to the centerline of the
car is zero, then there is zero static toe.


Toe is actually the angle to the thrust angle, but if the thrust angle
is not aligned with the center line, there is something wrong with the
geometry of the car. It's easier for this discussion to just simplify
it.
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John Harmon actually said:

However, if you have ever attempted to check your camber at home using a
smart phone angle measuring tool, your insight, hints, and advice would be
greatly appreciated (and would be generally useful to many people).


Maybe the SCIENCE guys can help in interpreting these specs?
http://www.st.com/en/mems-and-sensors/l3gd20h.html

One thing I've found out that is new is that the angle measurement on many
mobile devices (e.g., iPads and iPhones) is the off-the-shelf ST
Microelectronics L3G4200D (apparently rebranded the STMicroelectronics AGD1
2022 FP6AQ for Apple products).
http://forums.appleinsider.com/discu...to-future-ipad

Do you know if Android devices also have that same gyro?
If so, that MEMS chip will be the ticket to us figuring out the angle
accuracy.

On the ST web site, they list the "resolution" as "lower than 0.01 dps/yHz
for zero-rate level", which I'm not sure how to translate into degrees of
accuracy.
http://www.st.com/en/mems-and-sensor...oductId=SC1288

Another spec they use for the L3GD20H MEMS gyro is:
plus or minus 2000/ plus or minus 245 full scale typ (degrees/s)

Do you SCIENCE guys know how to interpret those specs so that we can get an
idea of the resolution of the chip in terms of degrees of accuracy?

Do the Android guys know if that chip is also in Android devices?
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:

Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are
trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause
any meaningful tire wear.


However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so)
is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can
do.


The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other
specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for
handling purposes.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the
tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can
be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation.


BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires,


That's not uncommon.

but they don't care about tire
wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I
forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel).
That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe.


That doesn't sound right. 2 degrees should not cause early wear, so
you really need to check the ride height. And recheck the camber.

As for wear, it seem everything goes in this direction:
1. caster
2. camber
3. toe


Yes, caster will not cause wear.

In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear
is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe
(under typical settings).


That's not the reason for the order, but it's not important.

Toe is much
more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do
it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's
exactly right.


I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler
arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on.

So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber.


I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe
and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial
lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire
wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too.

There
is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied
readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying
to save money is not such a good idea.


The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the
shop for double checking.


It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do
that, you might have gotten lucky.

Many shops offer free tests if nothing needs to
be changed; but I would hesitate to take them up on that only because they
can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick.

Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was
nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"?


They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort
to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because
cars do go out of alignment.

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a
challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.


Never in my life (and I'm an old man) have I seen a mechanic install a tire
correctly (I use Tire Rack authorized installers), so I suspect it's the
same with alignment.

For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last
alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that
most of this customers don't have a clue.


I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a
car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average
occupant weights.

It's the same with the tire mounting shops. They *know* how to do it right,
but they also know most of their customers don't have a clue so they get
lazy.

I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car
taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).


And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference.

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't
be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are
trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear
purposes, pay someone.


I think the summary is this simple.

A. Check the alignment at home for the things that can be adjusted.
For my Toyota, that's only caster, camber, and toe in the front, and for my
bimmer, that's only camber and toe on the rear and toe on the front.

B. Adjust if necessary (using a smart phone or inclinometer for camber, and
a tape measure for toe). I'm not sure how to do caster in the toyota since
I only just found out that the caster is adjustable on the toyota.

C. Take it to one of those "free if it's ok" shops, and see what they get
for measurements.

If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn
what can and can't be done.


You don't really learn that, except for each time you try it. You can
get very different results on future attempts.


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Bill Vanek actually said:

Toe is actually the angle to the thrust angle, but if the thrust angle
is not aligned with the center line, there is something wrong with the
geometry of the car. It's easier for this discussion to just simplify
it.


Oh. OK. You actually understand this stuff.
Thanks for explaining that the thrust angle isn't necessarily the
centerline, but, for our purposes, we'll assume they're one and the same.
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Vic Smith actually said:

I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.


We're delving off topic, but if you live in a wet or dusty clime, your
brake fluid will "suck up" water and dust, which, on a 10-mile long
mountain pass, might make a difference in not so good a way.

Even if it doesn't, the alcohol in the fluid will slowly erode your gaskets
in your master cylinder (and slave cylinder if you have a hydraulic
clutch).

It will likely still work all dusty, wet, and black; but it won't work as
well if you live in the mountains.
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Vic Smith wrote:

I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.


And... on a Japanese car you can get away with that and not have any issues.
Some of them don't even list the brake fluid on the maintenance schedule.

Unfortunately you _cannot_ get away with that on the BMW. It is NOT forgiving
about maintenance.
--scott

--
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Bill Vanek actually said:

The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other
specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for
handling purposes.


I just looked that up for my two cars.

The Toyota spec for the front camber is -.6? to .9? which is exactly in the
range you suggested.

The BMW rear camber E39 I6 and 540 models with "standard," "low slung
sport" and "M-sport" suspensions spec is apparently -2 deg 10 minutes. The
tolerance varies among options: either +/- 20 minutes or +/- 25 minutes of
angle.

The M5 spec is -1 deg 50 minutes perhaps due to 275/35 section width tires
vs 225/55 for I6 cars.


I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe
and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial
lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire
wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too.


For the caster on the toyota of 1.7 to 3.2 degrees, I am not yet sure how
to measure it for the Toyota but I won't have to bother for the bimmer
because caster isn't adjustable.

For the camber of -.6 to .9 degrees for the Toyota, I think I'll use a
magnetic base inclinometer such as the Husky 10-inch Home Depot electronic
level.

I think I'll just set the toe to 1/16th of an inch less in the front tread
(measured as close to centerline of the wheel as possible) than in the back
tread to centerline of the vehicle.

That will give me a total toe of 1/8th inch on the Toyota.
I'll use toe plates and a tape measure, I think.

It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do
that, you might have gotten lucky.


True. But it would be free if I got lucky!

They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort
to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because
cars do go out of alignment.


But if I align it first, it should be within spec, at least for what can be
aligned, which is, for the toyota, front caster, camber, and toe, and for
the bimmer, rear caster and toe and front toe.

I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a
car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average
occupant weights.


The 500 pound loading on a bimmer is for a different purpose.
You are supposed to put 100 pounds on the driver seat, 100 pounds on the
passenger front seat, and 200 pounds evenly spaced on the rear bench and
100 pounds in the trunk.

That artificially "lowers" the car to a specific "ride height" which all
BMW alignment specs are to.

There is much discussion of why BMW uses that artificial ride height to
normalize all their specs, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the
"typical" loading of a vehicle with a driver.

I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car
taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).


And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference.


I mostly agree with you that when the tire shop torques *all* lug nuts and
bolts to the same 100 foot pounds, it probably doesn't hurt anything. Nor
if they fill up all tires to the same 40 psi, again, it won't kill anyone
(even though BMW specifies different pressure for the front versus the
rear).

That they pry off the BBS hubcaps with a screwdriver just breaks the
plastic tabs. And that they don't remove all the old weights just makes
them put more on each time (and increases the chances of an imbalance from
a lost weight).

And that they don't mount the tire with the red or yellow dots to the valve
stem or match mounting mark just means they'll use more weight than
necessary.

That they don't even torque the bolts in a star pattern probably only makes
the wheel slightly crooked.

So, I agree with you that the fact that no tire is ever mounted correctly
isn't causing accidents left and right.

But it's still wrong.
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Scott Dorsey actually said:

I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.


Oh, yeah. I know it all too well.

My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside*
of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed
that the tubes sticking out had leaks.

It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of
doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree!

The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
of course.


Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years.
As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not
intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it
wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left
it at when you last shut down the car.

I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position.

But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the
full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU?

I'm guessing from something a guy named cn90 and jim cash wrote that I
found by googling, that the midway position is least stressful for that
TO220 FET (there are three of those MOSFETs aren't there?).

Which blower position do you think is least stressful on that MOSFET driver
if the blower is on?

1 bar
5 bars
10 bars

In Germany it's not a problem, but in Florida it fails pretty
promptly. There are a couple places that have retrofit ones with big
heatsinks. There have been a couple people talking about making PWM retrofits
but nobody has done it yet that I know.


I know when my FSU failed the first time, it was so hot I burned my hand
trying to get it out of those Germanic clips. The second one failed without
heat, as did the others (where they failed in a way that gave the AC/heater
controls a mind of their own).

Tried Formby's Furniture Refinisher or maybe just xylene on it to liquify
the varnish and redistribute it?


Nope. I didn't know about that trick. Maybe I'll try since it's just the
varnish that is cracked.

I would tend to disagree, with a few exceptions like the cooling system
which really IS shameful.


The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful.
So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle.
And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine.

I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs


Thanks for your insight.
Very interesting!


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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 19:20:27 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2016 6:57 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid

Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.


None of my cars have dual-diagonal lines so I purge the
brake fluid annually on each of them. A burst rusted brake
line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH
I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles,
YMMV.


I've had 3 brake line failures. All rear wheel and all on cars that
had +20 years driving in salt. Had one a few months ago.
They've all been on my "emergency" cars.
I was very close to home every time, and I always have a working
e-brake.
In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded.
The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace
the lines, which I should have done.

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On 12/11/2016 4:18 AM, Vic Smith wrote:


However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.



I've had 3 brake line failures. All rear wheel and all on cars that
had +20 years driving in salt. Had one a few months ago.
They've all been on my "emergency" cars.
I was very close to home every time, and I always have a working
e-brake.
In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded.
The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace
the lines, which I should have done.


Just anecdotal evidence, but brake line replacement seems to be much
more common in the past 15 or so years. I had the lines of my 5 year
old Buick corrode. I know others that had to replace them on 5 to 8
year old cars.

Either new snow removal materials are being used or the lines are
thinner, or both. This suppoerts it
http://www.wfsb.com/story/23874231/m...damage-to-cars

Connecticut auto mechanics told the I-Team they are concerned over a
recent rash of rust and they blamed the need for so many rust-related
repairs on the way cities and towns in the state treat the roads during
winter storms.

The I-Team heard it at the Vernon Collision Center where they said,
"everything just seems to rust. Five or six years ago, we didn't do
nearly as many brake lines as we're doing now."

It was the same story at the Canton Gulf, where the I-Team heard, "I've
been here 35 years and in the last three or four years we've done more
brake lines than I have in the first 30 years."

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On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.


I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers, so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.


I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.


The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0


Mikek



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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

If they specify toe at any other point than a known point off from the
center of the wheel, then they have to specify how far they are from that
known point for any inches-to-degrees conversion to apply.

Isn't that right?


Yes. That's why they specify toe directly as an angle. HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
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Nobuddy but Pleasance is allowed to touch my camber.



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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:34:02 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured
in inches?


Silly, it's specified in degrees because it's measured in degrees. HTH.
--
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John Harmon posted for all of us...



Tekkie? actually said:

The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed?


Tekkie,

Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel?
You don't know the answer to *any* question asked.
Not one.

Yet, you pollute the thread nonetheless.


I know the answers as I have done alignments in the past.

You have repeatedly been given excellent answers without learning.

I think you are a troll and are polluting this thread. Why don't you go over
to a BMW group? They are probably not as patient as we are.

I will post what you consider is drivel since you are a troll. I am glad you
are the arbiter of this news group, keep up the lousy job.

I suggest that all this trolls "questions" have been answered many times and
any more replies be treated as such, but that's just me.
--
Tekkie
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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

John Harmon wrote:
Scott Dorsey actually said:

I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.


Oh, yeah. I know it all too well.

My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside*
of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed
that the tubes sticking out had leaks.

It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of
doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree!


First of all, if you'd had a competent BMW mechanic, he would have replaced
it before it failed.

Secondly, when it DID fail, he would have looked at that and at the hose
underneath it as the first things that cause leaks into the throttle body.

Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
customers for something.

This is an EXACT example of what I am talking about when I say that doing
maintenance is cheaper than doing repairs.

The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
of course.


Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years.
As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not
intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it
wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left
it at when you last shut down the car.

I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position.

But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the
full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU?


If you have it on full, the transistor is completely turned on and so there
is less heat being generated in that configuration. However, if you have to
worry about what position of the heater puts less stress on it, something
is wrong. Put a retrofit one in there and it won't fail.


The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful.
So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle.
And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine.


ABS I don't know about... but everybody knows about the loom so everybody
wraps it. If yours wasn't wrapped, it will fail.

Likewise the headlight assemblies can be replaced with European spec ones
in some cases, which don't fail. It's only the wacky DOT ones for the
American market that are an issue.

I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs


Thanks for your insight.
Very interesting!


I just rolled over 360,000 miles on the new car this afternoon. Should have
it at 400,000 before 2018 starts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default What happened to John Harmon?

On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.


I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.


I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.


The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0


Mikek



Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
Mikek
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Default What happened to John Harmon?

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:16:49 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.

I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.

The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0


Mikek



Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
Mikek

I think he's fighting with a cheap harbour freight tire changer now.
If it's not him it's his identical twin brother (perhaps by a
different mother) If not the same guy, their understanding of the
principals is about the same level of non-existance.


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Default What happened to John Harmon?

On 14/12/2016 12:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:16:49 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.

I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.

The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0

Mikek



Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
Mikek

I think he's fighting with a cheap harbour freight tire changer now.
If it's not him it's his identical twin brother (perhaps by a
different mother) If not the same guy, their understanding of the
principals is about the same level of non-existance.

Yes, it is an odd discussion and, because of that, one that I have been
loath to become involved in. FWIW, back when I was doing wheel
alignments, and lots of them, Toe was always designated as a 'linear
measurement', usually in fractions of an inch for most of the vehicles
that I worked on, and it was never an issue. The equipment I used, from
the very basic to the most sophisticated computer types, had both linear
and degree scales so the issue in this thread is really a non-runner.
What's more, there always seemed to be some sort of conversion chart on
hand, supplied by the equipment manufacturer, so there was never a need
to deal with trig functions. Failing that, these days there are internet
options of which I supplied the URL to one such in a past post.

--

Xeno

First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.

Mahatma Ghandi
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Default What happened to John Harmon?

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 6:16:54 PM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.



"John Harmon", AKA Horation Alger, AKA Raymond Spruance et.al. does not exist except in the diseased and fevered mind of an established but not very clever internet troll.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home


http://www.helminc.com/helm/resource...nformation.htm

buy a manual.

The Ford E250 I drive replaces parts ...2 ...to adjust camber. Then there would be other adjustments in the tie rods.

I doahn know how to do that. I assume from what I do know the adjustment/repair process was designed for 3rd world conditions in Missouri.

I have a 544 Volvo. A 544 is adjustable at the home garage level, designed for this.

I had not considered this until watching a Mustang alignment check in the pits with a tape measure poss for rectangularity or a modification of. The adjustment is in the manual but I had not done followed thru.

However, a check by a serious amateur mechanic prob doesn't cover the same ground as the alleged sophisticated equipment operated by knowledgeable trained technicians ... if the expensive tires are wearing oddly. Or maybe it does. Try it.

Unusual tire wear is the start. Keep an eye on tire wear n measure tread depth.
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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:32:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
http://www.helminc.com/helm/resource...nformation.htm

buy a manual.

The Ford E250 I drive replaces parts ...2 ...to adjust camber. Then there would be other adjustments in the tie rods.

I doahn know how to do that. I assume from what I do know the adjustment/repair process was designed for 3rd world conditions in Missouri.

I have a 544 Volvo. A 544 is adjustable at the home garage level, designed for this.

I had not considered this until watching a Mustang alignment check in the pits with a tape measure poss for rectangularity or a modification of. The adjustment is in the manual but I had not done followed thru.

However, a check by a serious amateur mechanic prob doesn't cover the same ground as the alleged sophisticated equipment operated by knowledgeable trained technicians ... if the expensive tires are wearing oddly. Or maybe it does. Try it.

Unusual tire wear is the start. Keep an eye on tire wear n measure tread depth.


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


a controllable area is the driving surface n driving 'habit'

we have 2 in our front yard: one, a sweeping banked turn replacement for the 19th century boundary 90 degree turn and 2, road by Monroe....a county line road surface height border.

If the sweeping corner is driven with force, the abrasive surface will eat tires.

The county line is problematic. Every expletive deleted time that ridge is driven thru the front end wears out. I raise the front end braking hard n releasing before the ridge raising the front in rebound. I should drive around but the drive is long n complex compared to the ridge.

The two are 200 yards apart.
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Default Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
customers for something.


This is dead wrong.
Everyone knows that hack.
It doesn't work for the E39.
It might have worked for 1970's era cars, but not the E39.
There just isn't any change in the engine speed no matter where or how or
what you spray on the underside of the plenum.
The leak is just too slight and the difference in engine speed too slight
and the chance of getting the fuel from the plenum to the plugs too slight.
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