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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#41
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
AMuzi actually said:
Sort of mixed units. But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement. The manufacturer specifies the "total toe" as 0 degrees 14 minutes plus or minus 10 minutes: http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif The manufacturer specifies a "total toe" required accuracy of plus or minus 2 minutes in a measuring range of plus or minus two degrees with a total measuring range of plus or minus 18 degrees. http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg So this confusion is all my fault. Clearly I'm confused because the way I think of toe is linear, but the manufacturer specifies toe in angles, so I should not have brought up toe in the first place. Camber is simpler because the manufacturer specifies angles and the measurement is in angles. So we should stick with camber for this thread (because it's a simpler problem). |
#42
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote: tlvp actually said: Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones. An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone). The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of doing toe at home. For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement tools we're exploring measure in degrees. We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end (which is obvious to all). However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this layman's chart, for a similar vehicle: http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of: Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32" Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32" Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16" As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline* of the vehicle? No you can not. Total toe iis the difference between the track at the front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2. The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe.. The toe per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so the car goes straight when the wheel is centered. The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is essentially what you are setting. You are setting the angular relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car. A linear measurement is not an accurate specification because differen diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear measurement, but not the angular measurement. If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet, prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point. But I'm wasting my breath - You've been told this several times and it has not gortten through to you. Stop being a cheap-assed wannabee, find a good mechanic - and TRUST HIM. Pay him what the job is worth. If you can't afford to proain a bimmer, drive a bloody Chevy!! |
#43
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:35 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote: tlvp actually said: You need a cataly$t, and a good front end man. Bring your vehicle to the front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely), and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment"). Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged. That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing. I remain as uneducated as before. You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust - combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure out) |
#44
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
In article , John Harmon
wrote: But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement. not if you want to do it correctly, you won't. |
#45
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
And the length of the studs/bolts gets critical - not to mention it works best with 4 or 6 studs - not so good on odd numbers like the common 5, or the less common 3 stud wheels. My plan (later) is to create some sort of test jig that bolts to the wheel. Sort of like this: http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg |
#46
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 16:58:31 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
wrote: Ed Pawlowski actually said: I've done wheel alignment in my garage What we don't want is advice from people who would never contemplate doing a camber measurement at home. I've done it at home and on the side of the road. I've also done it hundreds of times with professional equipment. We want advice from people who have actually checked camber at home: http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg My advice is YOU will not measure it accurately enough, and camber isn't the only angle you need to check, and the other angles are more difficult to measure - with caster being virtually impossible for you to measure without proper equipment. All the advice from tlvp, for example, of why he would NOT to check his camber at home is and was already known before he posted anything. He added negative value to this thread. Since he would never do it, he has never thought about how to do it, and since he not only knows not how to do it, but more importantly, he has never done it, so his advice not to do it doesn't help anyone. He simply wasted everyone's time with his fear-filled response. And a fairly accurate response. Likewise, you waste everyone's time with your I-won't-tell-you response. If you're not going to tell anyone anything, then why bother responding? And I've told you Besides, you only pretend to have done it, which is fine, but you playing make believe doesn't help anyone here. I knew all this would happen, because most people are utterly horrified at the mere thought of checking camber at home so I was trying to avoid having to respond to comments like yours and tlvp's which simply waste everyone's time. Based on these specs ( http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg) the measurement range is plus or minus 3 degrees to an accuracy of plus or minus one minute. If we can't achieve one minute of accuracy out of a mobile device, what *is* the accuracy thqt we *can* achieve out of a mobile device? It depends a whole lot on the mobile device, on the application you are using, and how you apply it. "design it in autocad, lay it out with a string, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with an axe" That about describes the accuracy of your approach. Is it POSSIBLE to be accurate in that scenario?? Of course, if you try often enough - but your repeatability is not going to be very good. |
#47
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
If you are going to measure the toe with a string, you may as well forget about it. You can NOT get enough accuracy or repeatability to determine if the toe is correct or not. This is good advice that a string won't be accurate nor repeatable enough for toe measurements. Without pro equipment, to get that granular in your measurement you NEED to extend your measurements 5 or 10 feet and measure with a goor steel tape measure, or extend the displaced centerline accurately and measure with a steel rule. This home-alignment howto shows camber in degrees and toe in both degrees and in inches: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...alignment.html The really good news is that the author suggests 0 degrees of camber, which, it seems to me on initial thought, should be the easiest of all angles to measure. Using the simple tape measure will give you the total toe - which will be double the specified toe per wheel, and will not tell you if you are off-center. That same article shows how to get the individual wheel toe: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...ics/align3.jpg Since this thread is all about practical advice, the great news is that the article offered the following pragmatic recommendation of: a. Zero degrees of camber for a street car b. Zero toe (or a smidge of toe of about 1/16" on each side for a total toe of 1/32") Both those zeroes should be relatively easy to measure with shop tools, are they not? |
#48
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
There is a saying about Bimmers. If you have to ask how much - for anything - you can't afford to drive a bimmer.. There are enough things that can go wrong in the front end of one of those kraut-wagons that I think you are definitely being penny wise and pound foolish trying to save $100 on the maintenance of a late model Bimmer. Don't be such a cheap-ass. - or drive a Chevy. I have multiple vehicles. My japanese vehicle never breaks. My bimmer always breaks. I work on both of them just the same. You want to know if anything is worn or bent - and measuring CASTER is required as well to know. My vehicle has never been in an accident but that's not really the point because nobody will disagree with you that caster is part of an alignment equation, and, that caster comes before camber which comes before toe. This article shows that if you can measure camber, you can measure caster: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...alignment.html Since my bimmer has no direct way to adjust caster, I'm skipping the non-adjustable caster (for now) to concentrate on camber. You really don't have your head around the concepts well enough to understand WHY an alignment check should be done properly. I think that's an unfair statement that I don't understand why an alignment measurement needs to be correct but certainly I am confused about how to convert a toe specification that is given in degrees to a toe measurement which will be made in inches. What matters to an alignment check is simply that the manufacturer's stated accuracy is achieved. That accuracy, for my bimmer, is stated he http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg Your "quick check" is just that - and if you are at all in tune with your car as a driver you will know there is something wrong just as well by simply driving the car. If you are not "in tune with the car" the Bimmer is wasted on you --- (as it is on the vast majority of Bimmer owners) The bimmer insult isn't really needed here since this is a technical question, but it's fair to say that what you're saying is that "alignment can be felt" but I would clarify that by adding "sometimes". I'm not sure if you can feel the difference, for example, between 2 degrees of negative camber in the rear wheels and 1 degree. Over time, your tires will tell you; but waiting the 5K miles for the tires to inform you of that difference is not a quick check by any means. |
#49
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
In article , John Harmon
wrote: My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away |
#50
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over 7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app.. This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly). How did you find that out though? The "rigid" level application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can through your accuracy off. A trammel type setup made from a straight bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion, will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the reading is the same with the wheel turned. I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target (within the stated accuracies, all of which add up). Here's an example of a camber jig for home use: http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use: http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension. This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted. A professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension. This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely. http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...ics/align3.jpg I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot. The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure. http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things: 1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative 2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward) Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward. But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today: http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/20...-camber-gauge/ |
#51
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
nospam actually said:
But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement. not if you want to do it correctly, you won't. This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...eel-alignment/ Here's how they measured toe-in, for example: http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...ring_box. jpg Notice they measured toe in linear measurements. |
#53
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
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#54
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
John Harmon wrote:
I have multiple vehicles. My japanese vehicle never breaks. My bimmer always breaks. I work on both of them just the same. The japanese vehicle you can drive and drive without doing any maintenance and it won't break until all of a sudden everything fails. The BMW requires a lot of very specific maintenance, and you need to keep on top of that maintenance, and if you do not do it, it will break. But, you can drive it for a long, long time before everything fails. Maintenance is better than repairs any day, though. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#55
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust - combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure out) I appreciate your advice. Here are the diagrams I made for toe based on your pragmatic advice. 1. This shows why toe is specified as an angle to the centerline: http://i.cubeupload.com/rtvi9L.gif 2. This shows why an *angle* is better than a distance specification: http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif 3. This shows that Total Toe is a distance while toe is an angle: http://i.cubeupload.com/kYxrgm.gif If that is correct, the only problem I have understanding in the spec is why the total toe is specified in angles when it should be the difference in the distance between the front and rear tracks to the centerline: http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg |
#56
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
nospam actually said:
My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works. The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff. |
#57
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Ed Pawlowski actually said:
My reply is strictly based on the fact that you come across as an arrogant prick telling poeple who may reply.. I understand your reply (which was that I sounded arrogant to you when I asked people who wouldn't be adding any value not to respond). And you must understand mine, which is that I was trying to prevent a huge waste of time becuase *most* people wouldn't dare contemplate checking their camber (or toe) at home. The problems with doing alignment at home stem first from *understanding* the specs, which it is clear, I'm still grasping. After the specs are understood, then the next problem is measuring the camber and toe. And the third problem is adjusting them. This thread is only about measuring them, but I agree, my confusion on toe angles slowed things down. |
#58
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:01:12 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
re now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot. Hey Peter, why all the hate? Hatred? That is an emotion that takes effort and requires knowledge of the actual target beyond the initial idiocy. Harmon/Alger is a troll whose sole purpose in life is to spin the wheels of the otherwise well-intentioned by inveigling them into meaningless discussions over processes that have no relevance in reality. Usually continued so long that the "horse" is not only dead, but skinned, flayed and flensed. He cannot read for content. As the processes over which he appears to be confused are rather obvious. Which means either one of two things: a) he is invincibly ignorant. b) he enjoys spinning peoples' wheels. Whether the former or the latter, he has no place in a reasonable discussion as he cannot be reasonably, nor engage in meaningful discussion. Again, the sharpest tool he should be allowed is a rubber spoon as he is clearly a danger to himself or others who may be victims of his ineptitude. I would have a great deal more respect for him were he to sign his real name. But that he changes it as often as he (likely) changes his socks is the certain indication of his status as a troll. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#59
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
In article , John Harmon
wrote: My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works. The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff. only because you're too stupid to figure out how, particularly after people repeatedly explain to you exactly how. |
#60
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, amdx wrote:
On 12/9/2016 7:47 AM, wrote: On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote: So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters? You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot. Hey Peter, why all the hate? How is the rest of your life, do you treat everyone this way? I think I have posted a pretty good explanation to try and give him the understanding he is missing. I did it without one vile word. In fact, I enjoyed it. How joy did you have in your response? None, you were mad. Huh! How silly. If you are not happy making a response, why do it. Mikek Come on, the original poster, whatever he's talking about, cross posted this to comp.mobile.android, rec.autos.tech, alt.home.repair, sci.electronics.repair Only one seems directly applicable, maybe alt.home.repairs is valid (though I thought that was about repairing homes, not doing repairs at home), but comp.mobile.android and sci.electronics.repair have nothing to do with auto repair, despite a fairly regular strain of people crossposting between the latter and the home repair newsgroup. Anyone so clueless to post to this bunch of newsgroups is starting out with a problem. Michael |
#61
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On 12/9/2016 11:20 AM, John Harmon wrote:
actually said: You REALLY need to study your high-school math. This off-topic confusion is all my fault. I should never have brought toe into this discussion because toe is easily done at home when you have specs that are in linear dimensions such as inches but not so easily understood when you have toe specs in angles. http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg Clearly I'm confused how to do the conversion. Ya, I am to. But first let me say this, The first spec you posted, 0* 14' plus or minus 10', seems this isn't as critical as some posters are making it. For toe, it is still a trig problem, but the problem is defining, side b (a reference point). http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp I wonder do the shops attach a laser and measure on a wall scale a defined distance away? I don't know this, is it a single adjustment that moves both wheels or do you adjust both wheels separately? (makes a reference even more important) Sorry just thinking on the keypad. You have a trig problem and a measurement problem. The measurement problem is more difficult. It is not be hard to convert the 14 minutes to inches using the wheel diameter as one line. The angle is how much more is the front of the wheel turned in more than the rear of the wheel. I'll call the wheel 16" from front to rear. (just realized this almost the same trig problem for camber, just rotated 90*) I'm using the trig calculator above, this time the orientation is correct. Put the following numbers in, (side c) = 16, (angle A) = .233. The angle is .233 because 14min/60min = .233. Your answer is (side a) which is 0.065". So, you want the rear of a 16" wheel stick out 0.065" more than the front. Not real easy to measure, But, if you could extend the 16" to 12 ft (192") with a laser pointer, then (side a) is 0.781". The laser must be perfectly square with the wheel. Just some thinking. Hope it makes some sense. Mikek |
#62
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
"Meanwhile, the Toyota is a dream child to repair when something does go
wrong (which is almost never) simply because Toyota knows something BMW doesn't know, which is how to design a complete vehicle. " It gets better than that. I used to work with a guy from Poland. Said he could not believe how many tools you need for cars in the US, which includes Toyotas. Says the ones they sell over there come apart with like a half dozen wrenches while here you need all kinds of Torx and whatever else they can invent. For reasons beyond the scope of this text which is already beyond the scope of this thread, people over there have more of a tendency to fix their own stuff. Seems people in the US are getting lazy, to the point where they will jiggle the handle on the toilet for ten years rather than to adjust it. |
#63
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
"You have a trig problem and a measurement problem.
The measurement problem is more difficult. " I was wondering when someone was going to mention trig. What he needs is something to act as a really huge caliper. Looking at the bottom of most cars there is no centerline to be found. Actually is you can be absolutely sure the car is on a level surface, something like a plum bob could work. Measruing it accurately is still a problem, from the rim to a string ? And adjusting to minutes with only like 16" to work with ? No thanks. But the good news is that you don't need the BMW alignment machine, they are not really brand specific. That means he does not have to go to the dealer and pay three times what an independent would charge. On older cars I did set the toe in a few times. There was enough clearance to measure underneath wheel to wheel. Whaddya think the odds of that are here ? Did Slim leave town ? I never set caber or caster in the old backyard, but usually you don't heave to, even after replacing ball joints. They have to pretty far out of spec to affect it enough, really. Still, usually I would just pay the damn forty bucks and have it aligned. Of course that forty bucks is now a hundred, but how much is a set of tires ? A nice set of Dunlops or Michelins is worth the cost of an alignment, plus the car handles better. Plus with really good tires it rides better and quieter. But some people are penny wise and pound foolish. |
#64
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
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#65
Posted to comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
amdx actually said:
Ya, I am to. But first let me say this, The first spec you posted, 0* 14' plus or minus 10', seems this isn't as critical as some posters are making it. Now that I've done some more research, I have a better handle on 'toe' so I'm going to agree with you that getting toe precise to 2 minutes isn't all that important, in all likelihood. For *setting* toe, especially in the rear, it could easily be that 0 toe (degrees or inches) would be just fine, or, maybe, to take up some suspension slop, a "smidgeon" of toe (maybe 1/16th of an inch or less in linear dimension no matter what the wheel/tire diameter). This is to take up the slop in the suspension (perhaps slightly more in the front if it's a typical RWD like all my vehicles are). For toe, it is still a trig problem, but the problem is defining, side b (a reference point). http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp I'm still confused how to convert toe from degrees to inches, but luckily, there are web sites that will do it for us. https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm I wonder do the shops attach a laser and measure on a wall scale a defined distance away? Interesting you mention that, because the reason for the *far away* wall is simply that the angle is small, right? I don't know this, is it a single adjustment that moves both wheels or do you adjust both wheels separately? (makes a reference even more important) Sorry just thinking on the keypad. If you are talking about toe, I'm no expert, but the way I understand it is that you lock the steering wheel in the center position first (which has nothing, per se, to do with alignment but with esthetics) - and then - you pick a side, and twist a tie-rod ever so slightly - which - depending on the direction of twist, moves the front of the wheel in toward the centerline of the vehicle - or outward. So it's one wheel at a time, measured to the centerline. Of course, you can assume all sorts of symmetries and do both wheels at the same time, but conceptually I think of toe as a wheel-to-centerline thing, to be done one at a time. You have a trig problem and a measurement problem. The measurement problem is more difficult. That's an interesting observation that the measurement problem is more difficult, but I think only if we try to measure degrees of toe. If we measure inches of toe, the measurement problem is conceptually trivially simple. It is not be hard to convert the 14 minutes to inches using the wheel diameter as one line. I'm trying to find the triangle in the equation of toe in order to figure out how to convert the distance measurement to an angle. Here I just drew what is my first pass guess at where that triangle lies: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZmdfeN.gif Is *this* the trigonometric angle everyone is talking about? The angle is how much more is the front of the wheel turned in more than the rear of the wheel. I'll call the wheel 16" from front to rear. (just realized this almost the same trig problem for camber, just rotated 90*) You make a good point here in that we really have a 3-dimensional X, Y, and Z axis, each of which is rotated by 90 degrees (caster, camber, and toe). I'm using the trig calculator above, this time the orientation is correct. Put the following numbers in, (side c) = 16, (angle A) = .233. The angle is .233 because 14min/60min = .233. Your answer is (side a) which is 0.065". So, you want the rear of a 16" wheel stick out 0.065" more than the front. Not real easy to measure, But, if you could extend the 16" to 12 ft (192") with a laser pointer, then (side a) is 0.781". The laser must be perfectly square with the wheel. Just some thinking. Hope it makes some sense. Mikek Just to ask to get me more firmly grounded, is *this* the triangle everyone is talking about? http://i.cubeupload.com/ZmdfeN.gif |
#66
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in degrees, yet we measure in inches. So don't measure in inches. If you have tools to measure camber in degrees, you can surely repurpose them to measure toe-in in degrees also, no? HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp -- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP. |
#67
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
Am 09.12.16 um 20:11 schrieb John Harmon:
nospam actually said: My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works. The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff. The problem is obviously not the hardware; it is the user. *SCNR* -- http://www.albasani.net/index.html.de Ein freier und kostenloser Server fuer Usenet/NetNews (NNTP) |
#68
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
Am 09.12.16 um 20:46 schrieb nospam:
In article , John Harmon wrote: My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works. The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff. only because you're too stupid to figure out how, particularly after people repeatedly explain to you exactly how. *FACK* -- http://www.albasani.net/index.html.de Ein freier und kostenloser Server fuer Usenet/NetNews (NNTP) |
#69
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:58:43 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
... certainly I am confused about how to convert a toe specification that is given in degrees to a toe measurement which will be made in inches. Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either :-) . Can you help :-) ? Cheers, -- tlvp -- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP. |
#70
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
tlvp wrote:
John Harmon wrote: I am confused Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby. The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6 minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for other angles, so even they would be marginal. |
#71
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On 10/12/2016 5:17 AM, John Harmon wrote:
nospam actually said: But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement. not if you want to do it correctly, you won't. This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...eel-alignment/ Here's how they measured toe-in, for example: http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...ring_box. jpg Notice they measured toe in linear measurements. You might find these links useful http://tinyurl.com/jdas8oy http://tinyurl.com/jud2p3b Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and adjust if required. HTH -- Xeno First they ignore you, Then they ridicule you, Then they fight you, Then you win. Mahatma Ghandi |
#72
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On 12/9/2016 12:14 PM, John Harmon wrote:
actually said: The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over 7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app.. This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly). How did you find that out though? The "rigid" level application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can through your accuracy off. A trammel type setup made from a straight bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion, will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the reading is the same with the wheel turned. I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target (within the stated accuracies, all of which add up). Here's an example of a camber jig for home use: http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use: http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe. Hey, just noticed your link, http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg has the sears level shown here, http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview The Sears level does have a laser in it. That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a simple trig problem. The hard part, finding the centerline of your car. I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches. Mikek WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension. This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted. A professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension. This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely. http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...ics/align3.jpg I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot. The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure. http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things: 1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative 2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward) Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward. But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today: http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/20...-camber-gauge/ |
#73
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
After all this - consider the implication: An individual with the comprehension of the common garden slug has taken tools to the suspension of a heavy machine capable of significant speed and will then put it on the road amongst similar machines. Worse, that same slug will likely be operating the machine, perhaps with others in it.
Anyone here wish to be on the road nearby? Not I, certainly. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#74
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
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#75
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
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#76
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 16:25:35 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote: posted for all of us... On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:33 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote: amdx actually said: That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to? A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel. I agree that, for our purposes, we should assume I jury rig a jig of some sort so that there is a flat completely perpendicular plate bolted onto the axle somehow (probably placed on the outside of the wheels using the lug bolts or lug nuts). Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches? No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees. Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree respectively. But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches? That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5 miles....... You REALLY need to study your high-school math. +5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time. Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period. Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting something... I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a troll. There is some very simple math involved here. |
#77
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...
On 12/8/2016 12:00 PM, John Harmon wrote: The amount of useless responses to this thread can be minimized simply by asking those who don't care to or who haven't ever successfully checked their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up this thread to make it harder to be useful to others). New to USENET? I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude I prefer not potentially clutter things here. FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so proud when you do so. Aw shucks, I wasn't even thinking of doing that... It's Saturday so should I just do it to keep the quota? -- Tekkie |
#78
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
In article , Bill Vanek
wrote: But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches? That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5 miles....... You REALLY need to study your high-school math. +5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time. Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period. Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting something... I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a troll. could be both. There is some very simple math involved here. and some common sense. |
#79
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
posted for all of us...
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote: tlvp actually said: Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones. An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone). The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of doing toe at home. For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement tools we're exploring measure in degrees. We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end (which is obvious to all). However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this layman's chart, for a similar vehicle: http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of: Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32" Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32" Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16" As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline* of the vehicle? No you can not. Total toe iis the difference between the track at the front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2. The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe.. The toe per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so the car goes straight when the wheel is centered. The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is essentially what you are setting. You are setting the angular relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car. A linear measurement is not an accurate specification because differen diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear measurement, but not the angular measurement. If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet, prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point. But I'm wasting my breath - You've been told this several times and it has not gortten through to you. Stop being a cheap-assed wannabee, find a good mechanic - and TRUST HIM. Pay him what the job is worth. If you can't afford to proain a bimmer, drive a bloody Chevy!! Letz see up to +127 ? -- Tekkie |
#80
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
nospam posted for all of us...
In article , John Harmon wrote: My japanese vehicle never breaks. buy another My bimmer always breaks. sell it or give it away Yeah, some single mother needs this to stimulate the economy. -- Tekkie |
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