Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD). It'd look something like
this, below. I know that I can buy the connectors, but I did this on a
Friday night after the new hardware arrived and wonder if I can keep it.
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Thanks,

jc

Power Supply
------------------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
| |
| |
| |
Splice - /| |
/ | _ | _
/ | / \ | / \
/ | / \ | / \
/ |/ \ |/ \
| |---| |---| |---| |---|
| | | | | | | | |
| |___| |___| |___| |___|
|
|
|
|
|
| _
| / \
| / \
|/ \
|---| |---|
| | | |
|___| |___|

Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD). It'd look something like
this, below. I know that I can buy the connectors, but I did this on a
Friday night after the new hardware arrived and wonder if I can keep it.
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Thanks,

jc

Personally, I think it was a waste of time. They sell power splitters that
split 1 drive power connection into 2. Would've saved you lots of time.

make sure the power supply is rated to handle the extra load.



"JC" wrote in message
...
Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD). It'd look something like
this, below. I know that I can buy the connectors, but I did this on a
Friday night after the new hardware arrived and wonder if I can keep it.
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Thanks,

jc

Power Supply
------------------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
| |
| |
| |
Splice - /| |
/ | _ | _
/ | / \ | / \
/ | / \ | / \
/ |/ \ |/ \
| |---| |---| |---| |---|
| | | | | | | | |
| |___| |___| |___| |___|
|
|
|
|
|
| _
| / \
| / \
|/ \
|---| |---|
| | | |
|___| |___|

Don't splice the connectors. For a few dollars you can buy power splitters.
I have used a lot of these.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"JC" wrote in message
...
Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD). It'd look something like
this, below. I know that I can buy the connectors, but I did this on a
Friday night after the new hardware arrived and wonder if I can keep it.
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Thanks,

jc

Power Supply
------------------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
| |
| |
| |
Splice - /| |
/ | _ | _
/ | / \ | / \
/ | / \ | / \
/ |/ \ |/ \
| |---| |---| |---| |---|
| | | | | | | | |
| |___| |___| |___| |___|
|
|
|
|
|
| _
| / \
| / \
|/ \
|---| |---|
| | | |
|___| |___|

JC wrote:

Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD). It'd look something like
this, below. I know that I can buy the connectors, but I did this on a
Friday night after the new hardware arrived and wonder if I can keep it.
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Thanks,

jc

Power Supply
------------------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
| |
| |
| |
Splice - /| |
/ | _ | _
/ | / \ | / \
/ | / \ | / \
/ |/ \ |/ \
| |---| |---| |---| |---|
| | | | | | | | |
| |___| |___| |___| |___|
|
|
|
|
|
| _
| / \
| / \
|/ \
|---| |---|
| | | |
|___| |___|


Instead of splicing, you could just get an adapter designed for just
that purpose.

But if you don't want to buy one, then go ahead and splice. Just make
certain that you make your connections good, and don't put too many
devices onto one line coming off the power supply. Adding 2 connectors
shouldn't be a problem if you have a power supply of sufficient size to
handle all devices.

"Jerry G." writes:

Don't splice the connectors. For a few dollars you can buy power splitters.
I have used a lot of these.

Just double check that they are wired correctly! I've heard of factory
new splitters with +5 and +12 reversed. This of course does bad things.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.

On 03 Jan 2004 18:54:41 GMT (Quadrajet1) wrote:

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD).
I've secured the splice with twist ties.

Personally, I think it was a waste of time. They sell power splitters that
split 1 drive power connection into 2. Would've saved you lots of time.

I have added output power lines to several PC power supplies over the
years, for exactly the same reasons. In my case, I opened the PS and
found that the PC board inside had many more wire holes than were
used. I just soldered the new ones directly into the board.

I realize that one can add splitters (the price varies) but that can
double the current thru one of those molex connectors, and I don't
know how close they are to their current ratings. It also adds
compound voltage drops on a single wire, which might cause problems in
some hardware.

Off hand, I'd guess that my way was the most reliable, which was part
of the reason I picked it. The splice method would be my second
choice, as long as the splice was done well. And the splitter would be
the least reliable.

OTOH, I've never heard of any such reliability problems like these
actually occurring, so maybe it's a complete red herring. This might
give the advantage to the splitters if you can get them for cheap.

The first time I did mine, I actually went out to buy splitters, but I
needed 3 and the place I went to wanted $10 apiece for them. When I
asked if they had any dead PSs, they gave me one for free and I
scavenged the extra wires from it for nothing. Yes, I spent a lot more
time, but it cost me nothing and I think I got a super end result.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney wrote:

On 03 Jan 2004 18:54:41 GMT (Quadrajet1) wrote:


What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so
as to let me have up to 5-6 IDE devices (with added controller, of
course; my power supply has only 4 + FDD).
I've secured the splice with twist ties.


Personally, I think it was a waste of time. They sell power splitters that
split 1 drive power connection into 2. Would've saved you lots of time.


I have added output power lines to several PC power supplies over the
years, for exactly the same reasons. In my case, I opened the PS and
found that the PC board inside had many more wire holes than were
used. I just soldered the new ones directly into the board.

I realize that one can add splitters (the price varies) but that can
double the current thru one of those molex connectors, and I don't
know how close they are to their current ratings. It also adds
compound voltage drops on a single wire, which might cause problems in
some hardware.

Off hand, I'd guess that my way was the most reliable, which was part
of the reason I picked it. The splice method would be my second
choice, as long as the splice was done well. And the splitter would be
the least reliable.

OTOH, I've never heard of any such reliability problems like these
actually occurring, so maybe it's a complete red herring. This might
give the advantage to the splitters if you can get them for cheap.

The first time I did mine, I actually went out to buy splitters, but I
needed 3 and the place I went to wanted $10 apiece for them. When I
asked if they had any dead PSs, they gave me one for free and I
scavenged the extra wires from it for nothing. Yes, I spent a lot more
time, but it cost me nothing and I think I got a super end result.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I agree with you completely. The most reliable way was the way that you
did it. by adding more wires to the power supply, you lessened the risk
of overloading the capacity of the existing wiring and connectors. The
only worry is overloading the total capacity of the power supply.

The least reliable of these methods is the splitter, for the very
reasons you specified, plus they tend to come loose at the worst
possible times.

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...
I agree with you completely. The most reliable way was
the way that you did it.

NO! NO! NO! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

by adding more wires to the power supply, you lessened
the risk of overloading the capacity of the existing wiring
and connectors.

By opening the power supply, you exposed the most hazardous
part of the whole PC. In the (hopefully unlikely) event of the
power supply catching fire, you could lose your fire insurance
if they discover that you messed around inside the PC power
supply enclosure. Even professionals who know what they are
doing avoid this.

A sophisticated switch-mode power supply is NO PLACE
for an amateur to be dinking around. Particularly those that
are designed and mass-produced to the thinnest of safety
margins that they can get away with.

The wires and molex connectors are vastly (10x to 20x or
more) OVERrated. "Overloading" them with conventional
loads like hard drives isn't even a remote possibility.

The only worry is overloading the total capacity of the
power supply.

The ONLY point on which we can agree.

The least reliable of these methods is the splitter, for
the very reasons you specified, plus they tend to come
loose at the worst possible times.

The Molex connectors on the splitter adapters are just
as reliable as the ones that are already there on the PS
wiring (and on the back of the drives). I maintain
hundreds of PCs and have NEVER seen a failure of a
Molex connector.

NEVER OPEN THE POWER SUPPLY CASE OF A
COMPUTER UNLESS YOU ARE VERY FAMILIAR
WITH THE HAZARDS AND OPERATION OF SWITCH-
MODE POWER SUPPLIES AND YOU ALSO HAVE A
*VERY GOOD* REASON TO DO SO.

THERE ARE SAFETY HAZARDS TO YOU WHILE
YOU ARE INSIDE THE CASE AS WELL AS POTENTIAL
FOR CREATING ONGOING FIRE/SAFETY HAZARDS
FROM ANY MODIFICATIONS.

Adding connectors for additional drives is not even
remotely a justification for opening a power supply.

Concluding that there is extra capacity because there are
"many more wire holes than were used" on the power
supply circuit board is a clear demonstration of lack of
understanding the electrical and safety issues.

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...

I agree with you completely. The most reliable way was
the way that you did it.


NO! NO! NO! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!


by adding more wires to the power supply, you lessened
the risk of overloading the capacity of the existing wiring
and connectors.


By opening the power supply, you exposed the most hazardous
part of the whole PC. In the (hopefully unlikely) event of the
power supply catching fire, you could lose your fire insurance
if they discover that you messed around inside the PC power
supply enclosure. Even professionals who know what they are
doing avoid this.

this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance because of
this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo, computer, monitor, etc...
would cause people to lose their insurance. and in my experience over
the past 30 years is that most of the time while I am in a power supply,
I will be able to see problems from the manufacturing that could
possibly cause problems on down the road. And if I see a problem, then
I fix it, making the power supply much safer. and professionals that
know what they are doing would not even hesitate to open up a power supply.

A sophisticated switch-mode power supply is NO PLACE
for an amateur to be dinking around. Particularly those that
are designed and mass-produced to the thinnest of safety
margins that they can get away with.

The wires and molex connectors are vastly (10x to 20x or
more) OVERrated. "Overloading" them with conventional
loads like hard drives isn't even a remote possibility.


No, the wires and connectors are not over rated. I have found several
supplies straight from the factory that have everything running off of
ONE line coming out of the power supply. I even saw one that had the
+12v wire for the hard drive burned in two after only 5 minutes of
service. Doesn't sound over rated to me, but very much under rated.


The only worry is overloading the total capacity of the
power supply.


The ONLY point on which we can agree.


The least reliable of these methods is the splitter, for
the very reasons you specified, plus they tend to come
loose at the worst possible times.


The Molex connectors on the splitter adapters are just
as reliable as the ones that are already there on the PS
wiring (and on the back of the drives). I maintain
hundreds of PCs and have NEVER seen a failure of a
Molex connector.

I have several dozen molex connectors here in a box with burned contacts
on them, mainly from bad crimps at the factory.

NEVER OPEN THE POWER SUPPLY CASE OF A
COMPUTER UNLESS YOU ARE VERY FAMILIAR
WITH THE HAZARDS AND OPERATION OF SWITCH-
MODE POWER SUPPLIES AND YOU ALSO HAVE A
*VERY GOOD* REASON TO DO SO.

THERE ARE SAFETY HAZARDS TO YOU WHILE
YOU ARE INSIDE THE CASE AS WELL AS POTENTIAL
FOR CREATING ONGOING FIRE/SAFETY HAZARDS
FROM ANY MODIFICATIONS.

Adding connectors for additional drives is not even
remotely a justification for opening a power supply.

Concluding that there is extra capacity because there are
"many more wire holes than were used" on the power
supply circuit board is a clear demonstration of lack of
understanding the electrical and safety issues.


I will agree that the "many more holes than were used" is a bad
indicator of power supply capacity. There are many more factors
involved in determining the load versus capacity.

Having been working on PC power supplies for 20 years now, and other
equipment for over 30, I still contend that the safest way is to add
more wires to the power supply as long as it isn't overloading the capacity.

By opening the power supply, you exposed the most hazardous
part of the whole PC. In the (hopefully unlikely) event of the
power supply catching fire, you could lose your fire insurance
if they discover that you messed around inside the PC power
supply enclosure. Even professionals who know what they are
doing avoid this.

this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance because of
this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo, computer, monitor, etc...
would cause people to lose their insurance. and in my experience over
the past 30 years is that most of the time while I am in a power supply,
I will be able to see problems from the manufacturing that could
possibly cause problems on down the road. And if I see a problem, then
I fix it, making the power supply much safer. and professionals that
know what they are doing would not even hesitate to open up a power supply.

There is a BIG difference in "modifying" an existing power supply and
"repairing" one. I seriously doubt they'd dig that far, but ya never know if
they don't want to pay a claim.

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...
this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Remember that this newsgroup is read by many (mostly)
amateurs with NO experience in the hazards of switchmode
power supplies. It is highly irresponsible to assume that
everyone has the same experience level that you do. You
apparently haven't dealt with an insurance adjuster yet.

No, the wires and connectors are not over rated. I have
found several supplies straight from the factory that have
everything running off of ONE line coming out of the power
supply. I even saw one that had the +12v wire for the hard
drive burned in two after only 5 minutes of service. Doesn't
sound over rated to me, but very much under rated.

You cite a infinitessimal fraction of all the power supply
cables out there running right now as you are reading this.
If they were NOT over-rated, then we would be seeing a
large number of failures. Go and look up the current capacity
of those wire gages and then come back and tell us that they
are not over rated. Can't believe that someone with "30
years of experience" has never seen a wire current capacity
chart (or actually looked up the ratings of Molex pins.)

Having been working on PC power supplies for 20 years
now, and other equipment for over 30, I still contend that
the safest way is to add more wires to the power supply as
long as it isn't overloading the capacity.

Not only do you have a provably wrong theory, but it is also
highly irresponsible to purvey it in this forum to amateurs
that barely know which end of a soldering iron to grasp.

Quadrajet1 wrote:

By opening the power supply, you exposed the most hazardous

part of the whole PC. In the (hopefully unlikely) event of the
power supply catching fire, you could lose your fire insurance
if they discover that you messed around inside the PC power
supply enclosure. Even professionals who know what they are
doing avoid this.


this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance because of
this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo, computer, monitor, etc...
would cause people to lose their insurance. and in my experience over
the past 30 years is that most of the time while I am in a power supply,
I will be able to see problems from the manufacturing that could
possibly cause problems on down the road. And if I see a problem, then
I fix it, making the power supply much safer. and professionals that
know what they are doing would not even hesitate to open up a power supply.

There is a BIG difference in "modifying" an existing power supply and
"repairing" one. I seriously doubt they'd dig that far, but ya never know if
they don't want to pay a claim.


I agree that modifying one is much different than repairing one, but in
this case it would still be much safer than overloading the existing
wiring and connectors. Adding more would be safer as long as you did
not add so much that you overload the capacity of the power supply.
Also, most power supplies have built in fusing that will blow if
overloaded before burning anything up.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:34:40 -0800 "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...
I agree with you completely. The most reliable way was
the way that you did it.

NO! NO! NO! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

Sounds a bit like Chicken Little....

by adding more wires to the power supply, you lessened
the risk of overloading the capacity of the existing wiring
and connectors.

By opening the power supply, you exposed the most hazardous
part of the whole PC.

That's true, but I deal with much more dangerous things every day.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be done, but it does mean that
they need to be done carefully.

A sophisticated switch-mode power supply is NO PLACE
for an amateur to be dinking around.

In my book, the real amateurs out there are those who believe that
nothing can be fixed unless you've been factory certified. In the
cases where I've done this monstrously dangerous and risky task you
obviously abhore, I've also taken the opportunity to fix up the
incredibly poor soldering job that the factory did.

My impression is that the vast majority of people posting here are
serious, knowledgable people with good electronic backgrounds.
Certainly we get occasiional posts where the questions make it clear
that they really have no idea what they are talking about.

The wires and molex connectors are vastly (10x to 20x or
more) OVERrated. "Overloading" them with conventional
loads like hard drives isn't even a remote possibility.

Certainly a possibility. What about when you have 3-4 hard drives
powered thru a single Molex? Are you still so certain?

The only worry is overloading the total capacity of the
power supply.

No question about it. Agreed

NEVER OPEN THE POWER SUPPLY CASE OF A
COMPUTER UNLESS YOU ARE VERY FAMILIAR
WITH THE HAZARDS AND OPERATION OF SWITCH-
MODE POWER SUPPLIES AND YOU ALSO HAVE A
*VERY GOOD* REASON TO DO SO.

As alarmist as this looks, I agree with it. I feel the same way about
car doors and bicycle handlebars. Almost everything we do requires
some thought to keep us on the safe side of things. There are some
people who shouldn't do anything. There are others who could be
trusted with almost anything. Blanket statements like the alarmist
ones here really don't help.

THERE ARE SAFETY HAZARDS TO YOU WHILE
YOU ARE INSIDE THE CASE AS WELL AS POTENTIAL
FOR CREATING ONGOING FIRE/SAFETY HAZARDS
FROM ANY MODIFICATIONS.

Did you really think that this would come as a surprise to anyone?

I just wonder, with this kind of viewpoint, have you ever done any of
the following:

Drive a car?
Fix a radio, TV, or VCR?
Added an outlet or wiring in your home?
Replaced brake pads on your car?
Trimmed your own shrubs?
Mowed a lawn; sharpened a lawnmower blade?
Fixed a flat on a car or bike?
Welded or brazed a support structure for something that weighed more
than 100 lbs?

Each of these tasks, if done wrong, can be life threatening. For each
of these tasks, there are professionals who are trained to do them.

In fact, I've got to wonder why, with a point of view like this, you
would even want to consider reading a newsgroup that included the word
repair in its name.

Concluding that there is extra capacity because there are
"many more wire holes than were used" on the power
supply circuit board is a clear demonstration of lack of
understanding the electrical and safety issues.

No one here made such a statement. Clearly this would be illogical,
just as illogical as adding extra connectors by means of splitters
under the same assumption.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I agree that modifying one is much different than repairing one, but in
this case it would still be much safer than overloading the existing
wiring and connectors. Adding more would be safer as long as you did
not add so much that you overload the capacity of the power supply.
Also, most power supplies have built in fusing that will blow if
overloaded before burning anything up.


I have to agree 100%. But from an insurance claim standpoint, they can say
you modified it, and with the plug in Y-splitters, at least you can blame the
manufactures of those things. Good luck finding who they are of course.

A good analogy is the overloaded wall socket. It would be a bad idea to
change out the socket for a larger multiple socket, and NOT upgrade the wire,
but if you overload it with extension cords, heaters, etc... Either way you're
risking chaos.

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote
I agree that modifying one is much different than repairing
one, but in this case it would still be much safer than
overloading the existing wiring and connectors.

To help you out, here is the very first wire capacity chart from a
Google search: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It shows that an 18-gauge wire (much SMALLER than anything
I have EVER seen in the cheapest and sleaziest PC power supply)
is rated at 16 AMPS. And to quote the description from that web
page: "The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission uses the 700
circular mils per amp rule, which is very very conservative."

16 amps is enough to "very very conservatively" simultaneously
START eight Hitachi 180GB hard drives (note that they actually
RUN at a fraction of that current). Reference:
http://www.hgst.com/hdd/support/d180gxp/d180gxp.htm
(I used the worst-case startup current of the 12-volt supply
which runs the motor. The 5-volt supply is a fraction of that.)

Any of you running EIGHT 180Gb hard drives in your
computers? Perhaps not. And remember that this is running
all eight hard drives THROUGH A SINGLE "UNDERSIZE"
WIRE but still with a "very very conservative" margin.

OTOH 14 gauge wire (which I see most commonly in PC
power supplies) is "very very conservatively" rated for
32 amps. That is 16 Hitachi 180Gb drives all starting
simultaneously through a single wire!

And as for the Molex connectors, the capacity of EACH
PIN is 10 AMPS (or limited by the wire capacity). You
would have to create a daisy-chain of 3 or 4 Y-adaptors
to even approach exceeding the capacity of a single pin
(of the four). Reference:
http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/ps/b9clpatf_ps.pdf
(bottom of page 2).

I have shown with actual manufacturers' data that under
a combination of completely worst-case conditions,
there is no significant danger of "overloading the existing
wire and connectors". You are virtually guaranteed to
overload the power supply before even approaching
the capacity limits of the wires or connectors.

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote

I agree that modifying one is much different than repairing
one, but in this case it would still be much safer than
overloading the existing wiring and connectors.


To help you out, here is the very first wire capacity chart from a
Google search: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


Ok... using that chart, which is for open air wiring, nit bundled
wiring, a typical 22gauge wire can carry 7 amps. put 4 drives like you
say to do with a splitter, and you have overloaded the wiring... look
at the specs for a typical hard drive... here are the specs for the
Seagate ST410014A, 40GB drive...(the 40 - 200 gb are the same specs
powerwise) 2.8 amps @ +12v +/- 10%... 4x2.8 amps comes out ot be more
that the 7 amps that the wire is rated for.

Congratulations... by your advice of using the splitter, you just
caused an overload condition, and a fire hazard...


It shows that an 18-gauge wire (much SMALLER than anything
I have EVER seen in the cheapest and sleaziest PC power supply)
is rated at 16 AMPS. And to quote the description from that web
page: "The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission uses the 700
circular mils per amp rule, which is very very conservative."

look at your drive power wiring again... it's not 18 gauge wire...
most use 22 - 20 guage.

16 amps is enough to "very very conservatively" simultaneously
START eight Hitachi 180GB hard drives (note that they actually
RUN at a fraction of that current). Reference:
http://www.hgst.com/hdd/support/d180gxp/d180gxp.htm
(I used the worst-case startup current of the 12-volt supply
which runs the motor. The 5-volt supply is a fraction of that.)

Any of you running EIGHT 180Gb hard drives in your
computers? Perhaps not. And remember that this is running
all eight hard drives THROUGH A SINGLE "UNDERSIZE"
WIRE but still with a "very very conservative" margin.


Actually, I have 10 running here in my computer at home.

OTOH 14 gauge wire (which I see most commonly in PC
power supplies) is "very very conservatively" rated for
32 amps. That is 16 Hitachi 180Gb drives all starting
simultaneously through a single wire!

14 gauge?? not a chance... 14 gauge is used in the house wiring...
never seen it in the power to a hard drive.

And as for the Molex connectors, the capacity of EACH
PIN is 10 AMPS (or limited by the wire capacity). You
would have to create a daisy-chain of 3 or 4 Y-adaptors
to even approach exceeding the capacity of a single pin
(of the four). Reference:
http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/ps/b9clpatf_ps.pdf
(bottom of page 2).

I did state that the molex connectors I saw go bad were due to bad
crimps... but you also must factor in that the current carrying
capacity of the wiring actually goes down when you do put a connector
on. you raise the resistance.

I have shown with actual manufacturers' data that under
a combination of completely worst-case conditions,
there is no significant danger of "overloading the existing
wire and connectors". You are virtually guaranteed to
overload the power supply before even approaching
the capacity limits of the wires or connectors.



That chart also states that the capacities are under ideal conditions.
and here's a quote from that same chart... "As you might guess, the
rated ampacities are just a rule of thumb. In careful engineering the
insulation temperature limit, thickness, thermal conductivity, and air
convection and temperature should all be taken into account."

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...
look at your drive power wiring again... it's not 18
gauge wire... most use 22 - 20 guage.

Actually, I have 10 [drives] running here in my
computer at home.

I see your problem. You are trying to run 10 drives from
a power supply that uses 20-22ga wires!

First, you should consider buying decent power supplies
that don't use tinsel as a substitute for real wire. A quick
check of all the power supplies around the house shows
that the one with the SMALLEST wire is 16ga (rated for
22A.) And that is the one that I removed from a friend's
computer because it failed. But I'm sure that is just a
coincidence(!)

Second, you appear to be trying to kludge a small
power supply to run a "server-class" computer.
If the case holds 10 drives, it should have come with
a power supply that has adequate wiring for 10 drives.
Or, to put it another way, if you are running 10 drives,
you should be using a power supply conservatively
rated (and wired) for 10 drives.

Are you trying to run the power supply up against its
max limits for 12v and 5v? Remember that the mother
board (CPU, etc.) is using *some* of that power. :-)

If I had a computer power supply that used 22ga wire
I would be afraid to even turn it on! I'll readily confess
to being more conservative than you. It was considered
good engineering practice since our grandparents' era.

14 gauge?? not a chance... 14 gauge is used in the
house wiring...

Until your posting, I had never dreamed that anyone
would use 14ga for "house wiring". I've never SEEN
(or installed) anything smaller than 12ga. Perhaps I
live in a part of the USA with more recent wiring
practice.

I did state that the Molex connectors I saw go bad
were due to bad crimps... but you also must factor
in that the current carrying capacity of the wiring
actually goes down when you do put a connector
on. you raise the resistance.

"25 mOhms max" (0.025 ohms MAXIMUM) op cit

That chart also states that the capacities are under
ideal conditions.

If you have ever worked on much industrial equipment,
you would realize that the inside of even the warmest
pc box is heaven by comparison. We loose perspective
on reality if we think that computer cases are somehow
tough conditions. We have certainly revealed that we
live in very different worlds.

"Quadrajet1" wrote ...
this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

"Quadrajet1" wrote ...
this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

Hey, I didn't write that!!!

"Quadrajet1" wrote in message
...
"Quadrajet1" wrote ...
this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

Hey, I didn't write that!!!

Then you have been hijacked. It was posted from YOUR
account at 6:58 AM on Monday, 05-Jan-04. You can see
for yourself on groups.google.com (it is message #7 in the
thread).

"Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Quadrajet1" wrote in message
...
"Quadrajet1" wrote ...
this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

Hey, I didn't write that!!!

Then you have been hijacked. It was posted from YOUR
account at 6:58 AM on Monday, 05-Jan-04. You can see
for yourself on groups.google.com (it is message #7 in the
thread).

My newsreader shows Daniel L Belton as the author of what you quoted,
which is from the 6th, not the 7th message in the thread. Google
groups agrees.

Quadrajet1 should use standard quoting though, not that
business. It's non-standard (for usenet) so you are asking for
trouble. Every wondered why everyone else adds a character (usually )
to every line of a quote? Wonder no more.


Tim
--
The .sig is dead.

"Tim Auton" wrote ...
My newsreader shows Daniel L Belton as the author of
what you quoted, which is from the 6th, not the 7th message
in the thread. Google groups agrees.

Quadrajet1 should use standard quoting though, not that
business. It's non-standard (for usenet) so you are asking for
trouble. Every wondered why everyone else adds a character
(usually ) to every line of a quote? Wonder no more.

Bzzzzt! You are correct, sir!
Foiled again by the
Apologies to Mr. Jet

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Daniel L. Belton" wrote ...

look at your drive power wiring again... it's not 18
gauge wire... most use 22 - 20 guage.


Actually, I have 10 [drives] running here in my
computer at home.


I see your problem. You are trying to run 10 drives from
a power supply that uses 20-22ga wires!

First, you should consider buying decent power supplies
that don't use tinsel as a substitute for real wire. A quick
check of all the power supplies around the house shows
that the one with the SMALLEST wire is 16ga (rated for
22A.) And that is the one that I removed from a friend's
computer because it failed. But I'm sure that is just a
coincidence(!)

I do have a muc larger capacity PS in this box.. running a 600 W
Enermax...


Second, you appear to be trying to kludge a small
power supply to run a "server-class" computer.
If the case holds 10 drives, it should have come with
a power supply that has adequate wiring for 10 drives.
Or, to put it another way, if you are running 10 drives,
you should be using a power supply conservatively
rated (and wired) for 10 drives.

Are you trying to run the power supply up against its
max limits for 12v and 5v? Remember that the mother
board (CPU, etc.) is using *some* of that power. :-)


I made certain the PS was large enough... (see above comment)

If I had a computer power supply that used 22ga wire
I would be afraid to even turn it on! I'll readily confess
to being more conservative than you. It was considered
good engineering practice since our grandparents' era.


14 gauge?? not a chance... 14 gauge is used in the
house wiring...


Until your posting, I had never dreamed that anyone
would use 14ga for "house wiring". I've never SEEN
(or installed) anything smaller than 12ga. Perhaps I
live in a part of the USA with more recent wiring
practice.



Look at the wiring in your light circuits... a lot of them use 14 gauge
in the lighting circuits... at least 12 gauge is used for the
receptacles...


I did state that the Molex connectors I saw go bad
were due to bad crimps... but you also must factor
in that the current carrying capacity of the wiring
actually goes down when you do put a connector
on. you raise the resistance.


"25 mOhms max" (0.025 ohms MAXIMUM) op cit


That chart also states that the capacities are under
ideal conditions.


If you have ever worked on much industrial equipment,
you would realize that the inside of even the warmest
pc box is heaven by comparison. We loose perspective
on reality if we think that computer cases are somehow
tough conditions. We have certainly revealed that we
live in very different worlds.



ever seen the in insides of a lot of cases?? packed full of dust
bunnies and pet hair.. Geez, I think some people NEVER clean the inside
of the case, and those fans pull everything right inside.

Tim Auton wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote:

"Quadrajet1" wrote in message
...

"Quadrajet1" wrote ...

this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

Hey, I didn't write that!!!

Then you have been hijacked. It was posted from YOUR
account at 6:58 AM on Monday, 05-Jan-04. You can see
for yourself on groups.google.com (it is message #7 in the
thread).


My newsreader shows Daniel L Belton as the author of what you quoted,
which is from the 6th, not the 7th message in the thread. Google
groups agrees.

Quadrajet1 should use standard quoting though, not that
business. It's non-standard (for usenet) so you are asking for
trouble. Every wondered why everyone else adds a character (usually )
to every line of a quote? Wonder no more.


Tim

Yep, I am the one that posted that post. I have no idea how
Quadrajet1's name got on the Google post...

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote:
Tim Auton wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Quadrajet1" wrote in message
...
"Quadrajet1" wrote ...

this is a bunch of BS. IF they cancelled fire insurance
because of this, then every repaired TV, radio, stereo,
computer, monitor, etc... would cause people to lose
their insurance.

Taking something to a "professional" for repair is NOT the
same as hacking it yourself. Even if you know what you are
doing. Haven't dealt with many insurance adjusters, I take it?
I sincerely hope you never have to.

Hey, I didn't write that!!!

Then you have been hijacked. It was posted from YOUR
account at 6:58 AM on Monday, 05-Jan-04. You can see
for yourself on groups.google.com (it is message #7 in the
thread).

My newsreader shows Daniel L Belton as the author of what you quoted,
which is from the 6th, not the 7th message in the thread. Google
groups agrees.

Quadrajet1 should use standard quoting though, not that
business. It's non-standard (for usenet) so you are asking for
trouble. Every wondered why everyone else adds a character (usually )
to every line of a quote? Wonder no more.

Yep, I am the one that posted that post. I have no idea how
Quadrajet1's name got on the Google post...

Quadrajet1's name wasn't on the original posting (on google or my news
server). It's was Quadrajet1's non-standard quoting that caused the
confusion, (s)he made it look like a quote from you was actually what
(s)he posted. If you looked at either your post or Quadrajet1's reply
it looks like the author of the post wrote the comment. Perhaps
Quadrajet1's newsreader is broken.


/me goes off to play his violin

Tim Auton, usenet detective.
--
The .sig is dead.

Perhaps Quadrajet1's newsreader is broken.


Perhaps it's this crappy newsgroup reader I have to endure while on AOHell.
I can't figure out how to change the quoting arrows. I could under the old
software, but this new OSX version doesn't give me the choice.

I have a PeeCee, but mostly it just sits and collects dust under my desk.

"Quadrajet1" wrote ...
Perhaps it's this crappy newsgroup reader I have
to endure while on AOHell.

You have our condolences.

Thanks to all for commenting on my splice. I've had one person tell me
that I need a different power supply, so maybe that's the correct (safe)
way to go (I'm pretty ignorant on the topic of power). I build my own
computers, and this P4 Codegen 300-W switching power supply seemed
adequate when I had 2 HDD, 2 CDD, and 1 FDD, but I'd hate to kill things
now that I've added a third HDD with controller.

-jc

JC wrote:
Hey.

What's everybody's opinion on my splicing a couple of device power
cables onto one of the lines that comes out of my 300-W power supply, so

Belton (?) wrote:
There are many more factors involved in determining the
load versus capacity.

I guess that this is the key, but I don't know how to evaluate my p/s to
see what it can accommodate. Of course I shouldn't assume that a
"small" p/s can handle my "server class" machine, but I didn't consider
a 300-W p/s to be small (compared to my 145 of several years ago). I
saw the suggestion to not run [6] drives if the p/s doesn't have [6]
connectors. OTOH, splitters are sold and used (and endorsed) by many.
Also, although it's another issue, I've done a good bit of
over-clocking, so I know that production costs, etc., can sometimes
justify an under-rating by a manufacturer (and cynicism by a consumer).

So, then, how would one evaluate a 300-W P4 p/s to see if it truly can
handle more than what the connectors suggest (or is that a truly stupid
question)?

Thanks for helping,
-jc

Quadrajet1 wrote:

Perhaps Quadrajet1's newsreader is broken.



Perhaps it's this crappy newsgroup reader I have to endure while on AOHell.
I can't figure out how to change the quoting arrows. I could under the old
software, but this new OSX version doesn't give me the choice.

I have a PeeCee, but mostly it just sits and collects dust under my desk.


YUCK! I hated using AOHell's news reader, and the mail reader too...
that's why I quit using AOL over 6 years ago and went with a REAL ISP

YUCK! I hated using AOHell's news reader, and the mail reader too...
that's why I quit using AOL over 6 years ago and went with a REAL ISP

I also have RoadRunner, and use their newgroup reader, but it's buggy as
well.

As for AOL, up until recently I had a free account as a forum assistant. I
was one of the beta tester back in '86-'87 for the software. AppleLink PE back
then.

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:53:35 -0800 "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

Until your posting, I had never dreamed that anyone
would use 14ga for "house wiring". I've never SEEN
(or installed) anything smaller than 12ga. Perhaps I
live in a part of the USA with more recent wiring
practice.

Until I read this paragraph I was actually worried that I might be
disagreeing with someone who actually knew what he was talking about.

Apparently you're not familiar with the NEC (National Electrical
Code.) 14 AWG wire is code legal for 15A circuits everywhere in the
US.

14 gauge wire in a PC power supply? You gotta be kidding. I suspect
that if we check the specs for the Molex connectors we'll find that
they aren't even spec'd to fit wire that size. There's a PS right
here; the wire in it is 18AWG, UL 1007. Looks pretty typical to me....

I'll freely admit that this is the first time I ever tried to read
those little tiny letters on there.

OTOH, 18AWG is still plenty large enough to handle quite a few hard
drives.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" wrote ...
14 gauge wire in a PC power supply? You gotta be
kidding. I suspect that if we check the specs for the
Molex connectors we'll find that they aren't even spec'd
to fit wire that size.

If you had checked the reference supplied, you would already
know that they ARE specd for 14ga. You guys must be buying
cheap power supplies.

Jim Adney wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:53:35 -0800 "Richard Crowley"
wrote:


Until your posting, I had never dreamed that anyone
would use 14ga for "house wiring". I've never SEEN
(or installed) anything smaller than 12ga. Perhaps I
live in a part of the USA with more recent wiring
practice.


Until I read this paragraph I was actually worried that I might be
disagreeing with someone who actually knew what he was talking about.

Apparently you're not familiar with the NEC (National Electrical
Code.) 14 AWG wire is code legal for 15A circuits everywhere in the
US.

14 gauge wire in a PC power supply? You gotta be kidding. I suspect
that if we check the specs for the Molex connectors we'll find that
they aren't even spec'd to fit wire that size. There's a PS right
here; the wire in it is 18AWG, UL 1007. Looks pretty typical to me....

I'll freely admit that this is the first time I ever tried to read
those little tiny letters on there.

OTOH, 18AWG is still plenty large enough to handle quite a few hard
drives.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

If you have a PS with 18 gauge, then you are pretty safe from
overloading the wiring in it... but a lot of the cheaper ones don't use
18 gauge, but rather use 22 gauge wiring...

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:17:23 GMT J Corpening
wrote:

So, then, how would one evaluate a 300-W P4 p/s to see if it truly can
handle more than what the connectors suggest (or is that a truly stupid
question)?

I think the best you could do would be to examine each of the devices
in your system and add up the amount of 5V current each uses and the
amount of 12V current likewise. This is a lot of work, and I don't
even know if you can get all the info you might need for every
component. It also would be likely to give you a worst case estimate,
because a lot of your devices won't be drawing full current all the
time.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:59:00 -0800 "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Jim Adney" wrote ...
14 gauge wire in a PC power supply? You gotta be
kidding. I suspect that if we check the specs for the
Molex connectors we'll find that they aren't even spec'd
to fit wire that size.

If you had checked the reference supplied, you would already
know that they ARE specd for 14ga. You guys must be buying
cheap power supplies.

I visited the Molex web site today. I could only find one version of
this connector, and it was a rather unusual IDC version which I have
never seen before. It is only made in 16, 18, 20, and 22 AWG versions.

I just went back and called up the URL you mentioned. It is a scan of
a fax from Molex Singapore marked proprietary in 1994. It mentions, as
you indicated, pin compatibility for 14, 16, 18, and 22AWG, but not
for 12AWG, which you also insisted on. It seems strange that it skips
20AWG, so I'm left wondering if there's a typo there and that the
range should have been 16 to 22AWG, the same as their IDC connector of
the same style.

I'm also wondering what the point would be of using wire that is good
for 15A with a connector that is only good for 10A.

Frankly, I think it's odd that Molex would have on its web site a scan
of a FAX clearly marked on every page, "This specification contains
Molex proprietary information and should not be used without written
permission."

Can you point me to the page on the Molex web site that sends one to
this fax? I couldn't even find the section on these standard power
connectors.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" wrote ...
I just went back and called up the URL you mentioned.
It is a scan of a fax from Molex Singapore marked proprietary
in 1994. It mentions, as you indicated, pin compatibility for
14, 16, 18, and 22AWG, but not for 12AWG, which you also
insisted on.

My only citation of 12 AWG was for house wiring. Nothing
to do with the primary subject. At least not in the copies of
the messages I posted. If you think otherwise, please cite the
reference specifically, otherwise I believe you are mistaken.

It seems strange that it skips 20AWG, so I'm left wondering
if there's a typo there and that the range should have been 16
to 22AWG, the same as their IDC connector of the same style.

It was the only online technical info for that series that
Molex had linked. I agree that it is bizzare, but I have
always found the Amp/Molex websites difficult to
navigate. They have tons and tons of data, and I suppose
we should be grateful for whatever is online now. Their
paper documentation was even worse to "navigate".

Frankly, I think it's odd that Molex would have on its web
site a scan of a FAX clearly marked on every page, "This
specification contains Molex proprietary information and
should not be used without written permission."

Presumably, they gave themselves permission :-)

Can you point me to the page on the Molex web site that
sends one to this fax? I couldn't even find the section on
these standard power connectors.

According to the PDF of the FAX, the product number is
"8980" and you can see all the info by looking up that part
number. The URLs are way too long/bizzare to post here.

Jim Adney wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:59:00 -0800 "Richard Crowley"
wrote:


"Jim Adney" wrote ...

14 gauge wire in a PC power supply? You gotta be
kidding. I suspect that if we check the specs for the
Molex connectors we'll find that they aren't even spec'd
to fit wire that size.

If you had checked the reference supplied, you would already
know that they ARE specd for 14ga. You guys must be buying
cheap power supplies.


I visited the Molex web site today. I could only find one version of
this connector, and it was a rather unusual IDC version which I have
never seen before. It is only made in 16, 18, 20, and 22 AWG versions.

I just went back and called up the URL you mentioned. It is a scan of
a fax from Molex Singapore marked proprietary in 1994. It mentions, as
you indicated, pin compatibility for 14, 16, 18, and 22AWG, but not
for 12AWG, which you also insisted on. It seems strange that it skips
20AWG, so I'm left wondering if there's a typo there and that the
range should have been 16 to 22AWG, the same as their IDC connector of
the same style.

I'm also wondering what the point would be of using wire that is good
for 15A with a connector that is only good for 10A.

Frankly, I think it's odd that Molex would have on its web site a scan
of a FAX clearly marked on every page, "This specification contains
Molex proprietary information and should not be used without written
permission."

Can you point me to the page on the Molex web site that sends one to
this fax? I couldn't even find the section on these standard power
connectors.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

the one I find on the Molex site rates the connectors at 5amps@250volts.
http://www.molex.com/cgi-bin/bv/mole...0%26num%3D1301

"Daniel L. Belton" wrote
the one I find on the Molex site rates the connectors at 5amps@250volts.

http://www.molex.com/cgi-bin/bv/mole...0%26num%3D1301

Your "URL" doesn't work. (You didn't realy expect it to, did you? :-)
What product number are you looking at?
As previously discussed in this thread, the part number for the
standard disk drive power connector pins is "8980". 10A per pin.

Now you can see what I meant by...
"The URLs are way too long/bizzare to post here."