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Stephen Wolstenholme October 10th 16 01:25 PM

Batteries
 
A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com


Pat[_9_] October 10th 16 01:55 PM

Batteries
 
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:25:23 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve


My guess is that it's the other way around. The bad batteries
(voltage lower than spec due to bad cells) caused the electronic
controller to draw too much current in an attempt to maintain speed.
That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose something with no
information. It is also possible they replace the batteries whenever
they do any other repair to avoid another trip to the shop as the
batetries reach end-of-life.


Stephen Wolstenholme October 10th 16 02:18 PM

Batteries
 
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 08:55:33 -0400, Pat wrote:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:25:23 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve


My guess is that it's the other way around. The bad batteries
(voltage lower than spec due to bad cells) caused the electronic
controller to draw too much current in an attempt to maintain speed.
That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose something with no
information. It is also possible they replace the batteries whenever
they do any other repair to avoid another trip to the shop as the
batetries reach end-of-life.


The batteries were brand new about two months old!

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com


Stephen Wolstenholme October 10th 16 02:21 PM

Batteries
 
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:18:27 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 08:55:33 -0400, Pat wrote:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:25:23 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve


My guess is that it's the other way around. The bad batteries
(voltage lower than spec due to bad cells) caused the electronic
controller to draw too much current in an attempt to maintain speed.
That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose something with no
information. It is also possible they replace the batteries whenever
they do any other repair to avoid another trip to the shop as the
batetries reach end-of-life.


The batteries were brand new about two months old!

Steve


I should have typed "two months ago!"

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com


[email protected] October 10th 16 02:26 PM

Batteries
 
Sealed Lead-Acid batteries Do Not like to be run dead. Ideally, they never should drop below 50% of capacity before being recharged.

Now, we get into hype and sales pitches. The "Advertised" range of these little go-buggies is how far they will go downhill, with a tailwind, carrying a 30 pound load after a full charge on a cool day. The actual safe range is about 1/2 of that, 2/3 once in a great while. Otherwise, the battery sulfates - and dies.

Fuses are not voltage-dependent devices, but current dependent. So, as the battery starts to drop, and the regulator pulls more and more current (at a lower voltage) to the motors, the motors will start to overheat. And eventually the fuse(s) will blow to prevent damage to the motors.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._to_prevent_it

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Chris Jones[_3_] October 10th 16 02:55 PM

Batteries
 
On 11/10/2016 00:26, wrote:
Sealed Lead-Acid batteries Do Not like to be run dead. Ideally, they
never should drop below 50% of capacity before being recharged.

Now, we get into hype and sales pitches. The "Advertised" range of
these little go-buggies is how far they will go downhill, with a
tailwind, carrying a 30 pound load after a full charge on a cool day.
The actual safe range is about 1/2 of that, 2/3 once in a great
while. Otherwise, the battery sulfates - and dies.

Fuses are not voltage-dependent devices, but current dependent. So,
as the battery starts to drop, and the regulator pulls more and more
current (at a lower voltage) to the motors, the motors will start to
overheat. And eventually the fuse(s) will blow to prevent damage to
the motors.


That could happen if the motor controller is very crude, but a good
motor controller would incorporate current limiting, and the current
limit should be set below the fuse blowing current.

Chris Jones[_3_] October 10th 16 03:16 PM

Batteries
 
On 10/10/2016 23:25, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?


Would the workshop receive more money if they decide that the batteries
need replacing, even if the batteries are ok? Changing the batteries
would be a quick and simple job involving very little labour or
knowledge, and the mark-up on the replacement batteries might be quite
large. That might be one explanation why the workshop decided to replace
them.

In fairness to the workshop, many people abuse batteries without mercy,
running them into deep discharge and then leaving them to sulfate, or
making them boiling hot with heavy currents for long durations.
Determining with certainty whether the batteries are just a bit flat or
have been damaged through abuse may be a very time-consuming job and
require much experience and knowledge, and if the batteries are found to
be good, then it would likely be unprofitable also. They may also be
uncertain about the condition of the batteries, and may fear that they
would make the customer unhappy if the batteries are bad and they don't
replace them.

The workshop may even think that performing an unnecessary battery
replacement is a way of doing the owner a favour, if an insurance
company is paying.

The fact that the batteries were able to blow the fuse is if anything a
sign that they might be in good health. A really knackered battery might
not be able to produce enough current to blow the fuse, depending on the
fuse rating.

If the owner is allowed to hang onto the old batteries then that would
be nice, but I expect the workshop wants to sell them for the scrap
value. In the event that the problem happens again with the new
batteries, that will show that it was some other problem.


[email protected] October 10th 16 03:55 PM

Batteries
 
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 9:55:49 AM UTC-4, Chris Jones wrote:

That could happen if the motor controller is very crude, but a good
motor controller would incorporate current limiting, and the current
limit should be set below the fuse blowing current.


Bluntly, I would be surprised if the motor controller is anything more than a primitive SCR speed control and a fuse as a last-resort. These go-buggies are just short of a racket, with a very few genuine exceptions. And a brush-type DC motor will pull current even when not turning right down to a dead-short when the voltage drops below what is necessary to turn the motor against the load - and THAT is what blows the fuse.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Phil Hobbs October 10th 16 04:06 PM

Batteries
 
On 10/10/2016 10:55 AM, wrote:
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 9:55:49 AM UTC-4, Chris Jones wrote:

That could happen if the motor controller is very crude, but a good
motor controller would incorporate current limiting, and the
current limit should be set below the fuse blowing current.


Bluntly, I would be surprised if the motor controller is anything
more than a primitive SCR speed control and a fuse as a last-resort.
These go-buggies are just short of a racket, with a very few genuine
exceptions. And a brush-type DC motor will pull current even when not
turning right down to a dead-short when the voltage drops below what
is necessary to turn the motor against the load - and THAT is what
blows the fuse.


Torque is proportional to current, no?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[email protected] October 10th 16 04:21 PM

Batteries
 
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:06:50 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Torque is proportional to current, no?

Yep. But a DC motor dead-stopped is a short circuit. And even a very nearly crapped-out battery may have enough to blow a fuse if dead-shorted. Fuse action is not voltage dependent (as long as the fuse is rated at a higher voltage than the application).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Look165 October 10th 16 04:25 PM

Batteries
 
The first question : which fuse blows ?

Stephen Wolstenholme a écrit :
A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve



Phil Hobbs October 10th 16 06:29 PM

Batteries
 
On 10/10/2016 11:21 AM, wrote:
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:06:50 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Torque is proportional to current, no?

Yep. But a DC motor dead-stopped is a short circuit. And even a very
nearly crapped-out battery may have enough to blow a fuse if
dead-shorted. Fuse action is not voltage dependent (as long as the
fuse is rated at a higher voltage than the application).

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA


Sure, but if it ever had enough torque to start up against the load,
that amount of current wouldn't blow the fuse. Of course it might be a
super slow blow variety that eventually went, but saying that the
current went up because the voltage went down makes no sense unless it's
using a SMPS.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Mike October 10th 16 08:39 PM

Batteries
 
In article ,
Chris Jones wrote:

Would the workshop receive more money if they decide that the batteries
need replacing, even if the batteries are ok?


This.

It's also why some dealers advocate that, for best life on the Lead Acid
batteries, you should always run them fully down, before recharging
them.

Is it ignorance, or just a way to ensure you hammer the batteries
into the ground?

At which point they can sell you new ones at ridiculous markup,
as "specialist items" which can't be bought elsewhere ...
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[email protected] October 10th 16 09:15 PM

Batteries
 
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 1:29:43 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:


Sure, but if it ever had enough torque to start up against the load,
that amount of current wouldn't blow the fuse. Of course it might be a
super slow blow variety that eventually went, but saying that the
current went up because the voltage went down makes no sense unless it's
using a SMPS.


Phil:

Here is the scenario:

a) Go-Buggy has what passes for a full charge, and off the rider goes.
b) At some point, the battery starts to "run down". Voltage drops.
c) There is a magic moment when the battery *cannot* put out enough current (combination of voltage *and* amps) to start the motor under load. Say, a small hill.
d) As this very cheap device has a brush-type DC motor, the battery is now dead-shorted across the fuse. As you suggest, that fuse is likely a very slow blow device, also rated well over the actual 'normal' operating current. It is designed to protect real-estate vs. the device.
e) *POOF* goes the fuse, along with, effectively, the battery.

It is not so much that the current went up. The battery DEAD SHORTED.

Try it yourself. Get an inexpensive 12V DC brush-type motor. Feed it with a sealed lead-acid battery and measure the current. Get a fuse at 3X that rating. Clamp the motor shaft so that it cannot turn. Turn on the power. *POOF*. Even if the battery is on its last legs, making say.... 9V, the amount of current a lead-acid battery can put out is pretty massive even then...

Again, this is a BRUSH-TYPE motor.

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/m...-motor-brushes

Nor are the controllers much of anything.

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/2...MG7RoC42bw_wcB

I pay more for my R/C submarine control devices - which do have current limiters and also high-temp shutoff capacity. And a fail-safe that blows ballasts tanks and 'floats the boat'.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Phil Allison[_3_] October 11th 16 04:17 AM

Batteries
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:



Sure, but if it ever had enough torque to start up against the load,
that amount of current wouldn't blow the fuse. Of course it might be a
super slow blow variety that eventually went, but saying that the
current went up because the voltage went down makes no sense unless it's
using a SMPS.


** Battery current goes up with diminishing voltage due the actions of the driver increasing the throttle setting and so the duty cycle of the PWM drive.

The fuse copes with normal start up since it has a long thermal time constant. But if the motor is unable to get the scooter moving for any reason and the driver increases the throttle to full, the time constant is soon exceeded.

Also, most SLA batteries incorporate an internal fuse as a last line of defence against a short or near short. This is also slow acting and just maybe was the culprit in the OP's example.

I have some experience with SLA and wet cell batteries used with a 12V starter motors for RC boats using high performance, glow plug engines. This involves putting a severe load on the battery for a few seconds at a time, sometimes pulling the terminal voltage down to near half if the engine is flooded with fuel.

SLA battery life was fairly short used in this way, so I eventually upgraded to a 40AH maintenance free car battery with a 20A in-line blade fuse for safety. The fuse kept popping so got replaced with a domestic AC supply circuit breaker, also rated at 20 amps. This was *perfect* as it protected the battery from a dead short ( 2kA breaking capacity ), rarely opened in normal use and when it did could be reset in 2 seconds.



..... Phil


Cydrome Leader October 13th 16 07:54 PM

Batteries
 
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:18:27 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 08:55:33 -0400, Pat wrote:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:25:23 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

A friend has a disabled buggy for short distance trips. It is supposed
to do 25 to 30 miles on fully charged batteries. Last week it stopped
dead after about 10 miles. It was retrieved by the insurance company
and taken to the workshop for repair. A fuse had blown and so both
batteries needed replacing. Can anyone explain how a fuse blowing
results in the batteries needing to be replaced. They are sealed lead
acid batteries.

Any ideas?

Steve

My guess is that it's the other way around. The bad batteries
(voltage lower than spec due to bad cells) caused the electronic
controller to draw too much current in an attempt to maintain speed.
That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose something with no
information. It is also possible they replace the batteries whenever
they do any other repair to avoid another trip to the shop as the
batetries reach end-of-life.


The batteries were brand new about two months old!

Steve


I should have typed "two months ago!"


two months is a good run for chinese batteries.

[email protected] October 13th 16 09:01 PM

Batteries
 
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 3:50:05 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

It's also why some dealers advocate that, for best life on the Lead Acid
batteries, you should always run them fully down, before recharging
them.



That applies pretty much only to NiCd (nickle/cadmium) batteries that will get a 'memory' if not fully discharged with each use. That memory can be dispersed with care, but it can be a real PITA when the submarine in question is about 5 feet down and 40 feet away in a very fast stream. And why I stopped using them.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Phil Allison[_3_] October 14th 16 02:45 AM

Batteries
 
wrote:




That applies pretty much only to NiCd (nickle/cadmium) batteries that
will get a 'memory' if not fully discharged with each use. That memory
can be dispersed with care, but it can be a real PITA...



** The so called "memory effect" in NiCd batteries is basically a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_effect


However, loss of capacity of a NiCd pack is very common and caused by one or more of the following.

1. Over-charging so the cells get hot.

2. Over-discharging so some of the cells go to zero or reverse voltage.

3. To fast discharging so the cells get hot.


Each of the above damages cells so some or all of them have reduced capacity or develop a fault condition where the cells discharge themselves in a much shorter time than the others - ie days instead of months.

Since all the cells in a pack are charged in series, the cells that contain more charge than others soon become over-charged and heat up while others remain less that fully charged. Such a pack will show low capacity as one or more cells goes flat early.

Such a pack can usually be fixed by discharging each cell individually to 1V, but if any cells have developed high self discharge then even this does not work.

The term "memory effect" is regularly trotted out when one of the above scenarios needs explaining.


..... Phil






















[email protected] October 14th 16 12:12 PM

Batteries
 
On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:


The term "memory effect" is regularly trotted out when one of the above scenarios needs explaining.


.... Phil


And why I put '' around the word. It is a convenient term for an inconvenient problem.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Michael A. Terrell October 28th 16 12:23 AM

Batteries
 
wrote:
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 9:55:49 AM UTC-4, Chris Jones wrote:

That could happen if the motor controller is very crude, but a good
motor controller would incorporate current limiting, and the current
limit should be set below the fuse blowing current.


Bluntly, I would be surprised if the motor controller is anything more than a primitive SCR speed control and a fuse as a last-resort. These go-buggies are just short of a racket, with a very few genuine exceptions. And a brush-type DC motor will pull current even when not turning right down to a dead-short when the voltage drops below what is necessary to turn the motor against the load - and THAT is what blows the fuse.




I would be surprised to see an SCR that worked in a DC circuit,
unless it was a GTO type. All of the controllers that I've had on the
bench were PWM, with sets of PowerFETs for each motor. Each motor was
driven by a high power H bridge. All of the controllers that I've had on
the bench were built with International Rectifier components.


--
Never **** off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

AlfySande November 21st 16 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Post 3634287)
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:06:50 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Torque is proportional to current, no?

Yep. But a DC motor dead-stopped is a short circuit. And even a very nearly crapped-out battery may have enough to blow a fuse if dead-shorted. Fuse action is not voltage dependent (as long as the fuse is rated at a higher voltage than the application).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge the bad batteries caused the electronic controller to draw too much current in an attempt to maintain speed.That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose something with no information.

pcb assembly usa

[email protected] November 21st 16 08:10 PM

Batteries
 
On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 2:17:10 PM UTC-5, AlfySande wrote:

Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge the bad batteries caused
the electronic controller to draw too much current in an attempt to
maintain speed.That's just a guess, though. It is hard disagnose
something with no information.



I think you left out a step:

a) The batteries ran low.
b) The user kept 'upping' control to maintain speed.
c) As long as the motor is turning, things are (mostly) OK.
d) The motor (brush-type) stops dead, but the speed control is still on MAX.
e) Now the full - remaining - battery capacity is going through the fuse.
f) *POOF*

But, the batteries are sulphated, the speed controller has been overheated, the motor overheated - or at least those commutator contacts arced. Altogether a mess.

Any properly designed system would have a condition meter and a low-battery cut-off to prevent this. And a thermal breaker in addition to the fuse.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Ron D. November 23rd 16 04:03 AM

Batteries
 
What fuse is a good question.

Is there a possibility that the "wrong battery type" was put in the buggy? i.e. a battery that does not like deep discharge replaced for one that would. A "car battery" pretty much would die quickly if it discharged too far.

A defect with the charger is another possibility. Loose connections can kill the electronics responsible for charging.


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