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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#41
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:04:41 -0500, legg wrote:
?? Just charged you for the ECU, that they happened to have lying around? Very obliging... It wasn't a stock item. They had to order it in and it took about 10 days in all. I'm normally suspicious, but not on this one. |
#42
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:01:37 +0000, MJC wrote:
I didn't know modern enamel had gone clear. Sounds like a recipe for confusion! Even if all enamel is now also the sort that turns into flux if you try to solder the wire... Mike. Sorry, no idea what you're getting at here. |
#43
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
I can't find any pictures that resemble these things on the web. Following a closer look with a stereoscope, there are outbreaks of these growths in at *least* a dozen places on this board. Here's two more sharper pictures with the problem areas outlined: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ All the pictures I've seen on the net show whiskers as silver in colour but these are dark, metallic plum. They typically spring from vias in a kind of branching, fern-like formation and certainly reach out to touch other traces on the board. Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas on how to proceed? |
#44
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
All the pictures I've seen on the net show whiskers as silver in colour
but these are dark, metallic plum. They typically spring from vias in a kind of branching, fern-like formation and certainly reach out to touch other traces on the board. Cracks? Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas on how to proceed? Choose one of these, try acetone on a Q-tip cotton ear bud to dissolve the coating (try to not disturb the €œthing€ that lies below the coating--if, in fact it is below the coating). Get a €œburnishing brush€ with fiberglass bristles (used to clean oxidation from copper, etc.) and start gently rubbing the site. I think youll quickly discover if its a surface growth, or a crack or other phenomenon. Good luck. |
#45
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:56:37 -0700, DaveC wrote:
Choose one of these, try acetone on a Q-tip cotton ear bud to dissolve the coating (try to not disturb the €œthing€ that lies below the coating--if, in fact it is below the coating). Get a €œburnishing brush€ with fiberglass bristles (used to clean oxidation from copper, etc.) and start gently rubbing the site. I think youll quickly discover if its a surface growth, or a crack or other phenomenon. Good luck. Thanks. They're definitely not cracks, they're fibres of some sort. |
#46
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Engine Management Units
This type of caps is known for drying inside with time.
Cursitor Doom a écrit : Hi guys, I have an EMU from a Land Rover which just suddenly failed one day without warning as I was driving down the road. I was wondering if there's any possibility of fixing it, given that schematics are AFAIK unavailable due to commercial confidentiality. Of course there are some basic checks that can be done without a diagram, but take a look at this thing and tell me what I could try doing with it. I've carefully inspected it close up but can find *nothing* at all visibly wrong with it: http://tinyurl.com/hvk5eac BTW, the whole board has been thickly sprayed with clear varnish which accounts for all the bright dots which appear on some of the parts - they're not indicative of any failure. Any suggestions? |
#47
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:57:11 +0100, Look165 wrote:
This type of caps is known for drying inside with time. Yes, I know. But these are not faulty. I tested them with one of these meters: http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html Current most likely possibility is shorting between PCB traces due to growths of some kind: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ |
#48
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Engine Management Units
Cursitor Doom wrote:
Thank you, Jon. An interesting suggestion! But I was under the impression that: 1. TW growth happened solely inside chips and so was normally invisible. Absolutely not! I had some Xilinx chips where the leadframe was tinned before the IC was mounted and encapsulated, then the leads were bent. This put strain into the tin plating, and whiskers grew from that. Xilinx' solution was to REALLY FRY the chips when reflowing the board, which I did not think highly of! They seem to have changed their plating to reduce the whisker growth. These were easily seen with a microscope, and were clearly sprouting out of the leads RIGHT at the bends. Lots of reports indicate tin whiskers on circuit boards, connectors, IC leads, etc. Moisture exposure seems to be an important part of the conditions where they grow. 2. tin whiskers were invariably silver in colour. Yes, they should start out that way. But, oxidized Tin can take on a VARIETY of colors. Most of these I'm more accustomed to see where the Tin has been heated (as when soldering) but I have definitely seen Tin turn all shades of purple. Also, the conformal coating may have chemicals that caused the tin whiskers to change color. These I have here are like the old kind of enamel copper wire. Nowadays all enamel copper seems to be clear, but back in the day the enamel was a sort of deep plum shade - which is what I see here. I'll do some searches for pictures of TW and see if some match what I see on this board.... Tin can definitely turn this "plum" shade. Jon |
#49
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
Cursitor Doom wrote:
I can't find any pictures that resemble these things on the web. Following a closer look with a stereoscope, there are outbreaks of these growths in at *least* a dozen places on this board. Here's two more sharper pictures with the problem areas outlined: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ All the pictures I've seen on the net show whiskers as silver in colour but these are dark, metallic plum. They typically spring from vias in a kind of branching, fern-like formation and certainly reach out to touch other traces on the board. Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas on how to proceed? These do NOT look like the whiskers I have encountered before. But, they could be some sort of conductive stuff that has grown between nets on the board. One possibility is they are fibers from a brush that either cleaned the board or applied the conformal coat. But, they could still be trouble, maybe they start out non-conductive but become conductive when moisture is absorbed. Since you say the sprout from vias, maybe the board had some contaminant left in the vias that slowly creeps out under heat and electrical field. Anyway, not much to lose by trying to remove the conformal coat at these spots and see if the EMU comes back to life. If it does, then you need to get some new conformal coat and re-seal those spots. Jon |
#50
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Engine Management Units
" wonnder how you can determine an ESR visually !
And technically, it's not so easy to measure this parameter. " With a square wave that has a fast enough slew rate for the vertical parts of the scope trace to disappear. The square wave comes from a known impedance and is high enough frequency so Xc is minimal. Measure the amplitude of the parts you can't see and then it is simple ohm's law. I use 400 mV 1,000 Hz with a 360 ohm impedance which does not make the numbers easy but it makes for quick troubleshooting. |
#51
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:26:54 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
Tin can definitely turn this "plum" shade. Jon In that case I wonder how I would go about measuring the resistance of these things? Maybe I could lift one off with a piece of sticky tape if they're not too fragile. Can't think of a better way! |
#52
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:25:50 -0500, legg wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:00:52 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ You're going to have to get more localized images of individual sites, using a minimum x10 magnification, and enhanced/varying side-lighting. A 'star' group, or part group should occupy a full image. Manual marking should not interfere and should use line widths smaller than the image details themselves. If possible, you should label or datestamp each individually for reference. The captive metalic detritus on the body of one resistor did not resolve any better in the later image. If possible, angled images can be informative, when monocular, and diffused lighting will reduce glare. If you do post more detailed images to the same flikr thread, they can be downloaded and examined by IPC Technet group members, with comments at http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.e...1603&L=TechNet RL Thanks for that. Yes, I would have liked to have posted images direct from the stereoscope which is just in its own class for this kind of thing and shows *so* much more detail, but I don't have a suitable adaptor. I'll check out your link tomorrow as it's getting very late here now... |
#53
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:00:52 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ You're going to have to get more localized images of individual sites, using a minimum x10 magnification, and enhanced/varying side-lighting. A 'star' group, or part group should occupy a full image. Manual marking should not interfere and should use line widths smaller than the image details themselves. If possible, you should label or datestamp each individually for reference. The captive metalic detritus on the body of one resistor did not resolve any better in the later image. If possible, angled images can be informative, when monocular, and diffused lighting will reduce glare. If you do post more detailed images to the same flikr thread, they can be downloaded and examined by IPC Technet group members, with comments at http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.e...1603&L=TechNet RL |
#54
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Engine Management Units
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:26:54 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Tin can definitely turn this "plum" shade. Jon In that case I wonder how I would go about measuring the resistance of these things? Maybe I could lift one off with a piece of sticky tape if they're not too fragile. Can't think of a better way! I'm still thinking these were left behind by some kind of brush. But, they could still be trouble after years of exposure to something. Are these on top of the conformal coat or underneath/within it? If they are in the coat, then it will be hard to extract them. Jon |
#55
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:24:00 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
wrote: I can't find any pictures that resemble these things on the web. Following a closer look with a stereoscope, there are outbreaks of these growths in at *least* a dozen places on this board. Here's two more sharper pictures with the problem areas outlined: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128859...in/dateposted- public/ All the pictures I've seen on the net show whiskers as silver in colour but these are dark, metallic plum. They typically spring from vias in a kind of branching, fern-like formation and certainly reach out to touch other traces on the board. Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas on how to proceed? Early technet response suggests chemical contamination in vias, but would require SEM EDX to confirm. This contamination could difuse in the conformal coating cure stress lines (ie the pucker). I don't see vias involved in every instance - some sites seem to develop at pure surface mount pad sites. There's an image of copper dendrites on Steve Zeva's gallery http://stevezeva.homestead.com/ http://stevezeva.homestead.com/Dendrite_1.jpg These tend to be inter-node rather than centrally expanding. A close examination of tin whiskers should reveal a characteristic three dimensional spike/thread detail. Not likely here. RL |
#56
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Engine Management Units
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:36:17 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
They seem to emerge from under it and spread along the surface, but I can't confirm that yet as I've resisted disturbing them so far in case they disintegrate and defy further analysis. It's a good question, though, and I expect to be able to report back on this later today. I'll sacrifice one of the patches and find out. |
#57
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 00:07:03 -0500, legg wrote:
Early technet response suggests chemical contamination in vias, but would require SEM EDX to confirm. This contamination could difuse in the conformal coating cure stress lines (ie the pucker). Can you post a url for this site? I searched but got about a million microsoft support links instead. "SEM EDX"? Is that something to do with electron microscopy? I have an admittedly huge collection of test gear here, but not a single electron microscope. I don't see vias involved in every instance - some sites seem to develop at pure surface mount pad sites. True, but they're in the minority. Maybe that's relevant; maybe not. The we don't have a large enough sample here to say. There's an image of copper dendrites on Steve Zeva's gallery http://stevezeva.homestead.com/ http://stevezeva.homestead.com/Dendrite_1.jpg These tend to be inter-node rather than centrally expanding. Yes, still no precise matches. A close examination of tin whiskers should reveal a characteristic three dimensional spike/thread detail. Not likely here. Yes, TW seem to come out at right angles to the plain; these are surface creepers. |
#58
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Engine Management Units
They seem to emerge from under it and spread along the surface, but I can't confirm that yet as I've resisted disturbing them so far in case they disintegrate and defy further analysis. Right, basically what I said above is correct. There seems to have been some sort of breakdown of the clear coating which has enabled these things to get a foothold. They then break out and traverse along the board *on top* of the coating. So it's doubtful they could cause any short circuits unless by sheer chance the tip of one of them hits another spot of coating that's broken down above a trace - or a chip pin. When touched with a scalpel blade they break apart readily into shards and can be blown away by an air duster can. The coating has lost its integrity and could probably be scrubbed away with a toothbrush. I personally prefer to use clear varnish for my own boards. It hasn't the depth that this coating has, but at least when it's set, it's set for good. I wonder what the reverse side looks like? Perhaps there's no coating at all, in which case who knows what state it's in. |
#59
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 10:37:46 -0500, legg wrote:
Technet link was previously posted. http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.e...1603&L=TechNet Thanks, I hadn't spotted that link. Question is, what is your repair plan? If there is some formal defintion of this term, I don't know it. But my plans with this unit are to spend as little time as possible on it and if it can't be fixed reasonably quickly, to get rid of it. Items like this are way off-beat for me and I have a pile of other stuff more in my line awaiting my attention in due course. You don't seem to have any indication of the unit's present state other than sticking it back in the car and seeing if the car starts. No fb on xtal replacement yet....... I'll get there. I just have to fit this EMU in between other jobs with higher priorities, plus avoiding the usual divorce threats. The blemishes you're chasing may have nothing to do with actual fault. I agree entirely. The spatter pattern is also suggestive of the impact from an external source, such as a flicked paint brush. Nope. If you could see it through the stereoscope, you'd agree straightaway. I shall have to post to the photo groups for adaptor ideas to make it possible to post much better quality macro shots online than the ones I'm ****ing everyone off with at present. The single metalic entrapment pictured should also flick off with a knife blade. But without some before and after passive probing, you'll never know if this did anything. Easier said than done (see my update posted 2.10pm local here). |
#60
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 00:07:03 -0500, legg wrote: Early technet response suggests chemical contamination in vias, but would require SEM EDX to confirm. This contamination could difuse in the conformal coating cure stress lines (ie the pucker). Can you post a url for this site? I searched but got about a million microsoft support links instead. "SEM EDX"? Is that something to do with electron microscopy? I have an admittedly huge collection of test gear here, but not a single electron microscope. I don't see vias involved in every instance - some sites seem to develop at pure surface mount pad sites. True, but they're in the minority. Maybe that's relevant; maybe not. The we don't have a large enough sample here to say. There's an image of copper dendrites on Steve Zeva's gallery http://stevezeva.homestead.com/ http://stevezeva.homestead.com/Dendrite_1.jpg These tend to be inter-node rather than centrally expanding. Yes, still no precise matches. A close examination of tin whiskers should reveal a characteristic three dimensional spike/thread detail. Not likely here. Yes, TW seem to come out at right angles to the plain; these are surface creepers. Technet link was previously posted. http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.e...1603&L=TechNet Question is, what is your repair plan? You don't seem to have any indication of the unit's present state other than sticking it back in the car and seeing if the car starts. No fb on xtal replacement yet....... The blemishes you're chasing may have nothing to do with actual fault. The spatter pattern is also suggestive of the impact from an external source, such as a flicked paint brush. The single metalic entrapment pictured should also flick off with a knife blade. But without some before and after passive probing, you'll never know if this did anything. RL |
#61
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Engine Management Units
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#62
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Engine Management Units
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:13:46 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , escribió: why do the British drink warm beer? So we can actually taste it. Have you drunk warm American beer? It's icy cold to hide the fact that it tastes bloody awful. QED. They don't appear to use hops for flavouring in N. America and Australia, so it's not really beer at all but 'malt liquor' to be more accurate. Young British men who don't know any better seem quite happy to drink such monstrous concoctions as Coors, Bud and Fosters because they don't know any better and fall for the flashy advertising and glitzy looking dispensers. The best beers in the world - proper beers - are brewed by the Belgians, the Czechs and the very best of all of course - the Germans. |
#63
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Engine Management Units
Cursitor Doom wrote:
They seem to emerge from under it and spread along the surface, but I can't confirm that yet as I've resisted disturbing them so far in case they disintegrate and defy further analysis. Right, basically what I said above is correct. There seems to have been some sort of breakdown of the clear coating which has enabled these things to get a foothold. They then break out and traverse along the board *on top* of the coating. So it's doubtful they could cause any short circuits unless by sheer chance the tip of one of them hits another spot of coating that's broken down above a trace Hmmm, very interesting. If they have GROWN out of the board, especially from the vias, then they have a really good chance of being conductive. And, maybe the ones across the TOP of the coating are no problem, but if there are some on the back side or under the coating, they could cause trouble. If the conformal coat has broken down, moisture and various contaminants could have gotten under it and started making conductive paths. If the controller depends on some high impedance circuitry, that could cause it to quit. If these things are on TOP of the coating, then it should be easier to make a conductivity measurement. (But, yes, I see you say they are brittle.) Jon |
#64
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Engine Management Units
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:57 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
If these things are on TOP of the coating, then it should be easier to make a conductivity measurement. (But, yes, I see you say they are brittle.) Indeed they are - very! Anyone who can come up with a method for establishing if they're conductive and if so, to what extent deserves a Nobel Prize, I reckon. |
#65
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Engine Management Units
On 18.03.16 21:57, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:57 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: If these things are on TOP of the coating, then it should be easier to make a conductivity measurement. (But, yes, I see you say they are brittle.) Indeed they are - very! Anyone who can come up with a method for establishing if they're conductive and if so, to what extent deserves a Nobel Prize, I reckon. Going for the nobelprice then. Apply a very small drop of salt water to the tip of one of those out grows then one side of your ohmmeter to a ground and the other side gently touching the drop of water. If the whisker conducts, that should show up. |
#66
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Engine Management Units
On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:26:58 +0100, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Going for the nobelprice then. Apply a very small drop of salt water to the tip of one of those out grows then one side of your ohmmeter to a ground and the other side gently touching the drop of water. If the whisker conducts, that should show up. Thank you for that, Sjouke. I'll ponder this idea of yours as I can see some merit in it. the only problem AISI is these fibres are so tiny it's going to require a steady hand and a good eye - but I have neither! However, it's very late here now so I'll report back tomorrow with the results - *if* I can pull it off. |
#67
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Engine Management Units
En el artículo , Gunther Heiko Hagen
escribió: The best beers in the world - proper beers - are brewed by the Belgians, the Czechs and the very best of all of course - the Germans. Yep. I was thrilled when I went in a little off-the-beaten-track bar in a remote part of the Canary islands to find they had three chiller cabinets stuffed with craft Belgian and German beers. Have my tickets booked for Oktoberfest -- (\_/) (='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke! (")_(") |
#68
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Engine Management Units
On 3/17/2016 8:01 AM, MJC wrote:
In article , says... Nowadays all enamel copper seems to be clear, but back in the day the enamel was a sort of deep plum shade - which is what I see here. I'll do some searches for pictures of TW and see if some match what I see on this board.... I didn't know modern enamel had gone clear. Sounds like a recipe for confusion! Even if all enamel is now also the sort that turns into flux if you try to solder the wire... Mike. Far as I've seen, the latest change (20 yrs) was to a higher temperature enamel that is Brown. The change was made for electric motors because with VFD's they can run at higher temperatures. Mikek |
#69
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Engine Management Units
On 19.03.16 2:12, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:26:58 +0100, Sjouke Burry wrote: Going for the nobelprice then. Apply a very small drop of salt water to the tip of one of those out grows then one side of your ohmmeter to a ground and the other side gently touching the drop of water. If the whisker conducts, that should show up. Thank you for that, Sjouke. I'll ponder this idea of yours as I can see some merit in it. the only problem AISI is these fibres are so tiny it's going to require a steady hand and a good eye - but I have neither! However, it's very late here now so I'll report back tomorrow with the results - *if* I can pull it off. Eye sight is what made me buy a "jewelers headband loop", feed that to google pictures to see one. |
#71
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Engine Management Units
On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 21:15:10 +0100, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Eye sight is what made me buy a "jewelers headband loop", feed that to google pictures to see one. Yeah, I've got one with a little light in the centre; very useful! Still got rotten motor skills, though. |
#72
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Engine Management Units
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:57:34 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:57 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: If these things are on TOP of the coating, then it should be easier to make a conductivity measurement. (But, yes, I see you say they are brittle.) Indeed they are - very! Anyone who can come up with a method for establishing if they're conductive and if so, to what extent deserves a Nobel Prize, I reckon. If they are water soluble, you might just clean the whole unit in your dishwasher. Depends on whether the aim is repair, or donation to science. If the latter - ship to mfr in sealed bag with note attached - expect no response. RL |
#73
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 09:43:10 -0500, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:57:34 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:57 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: If these things are on TOP of the coating, then it should be easier to make a conductivity measurement. (But, yes, I see you say they are brittle.) Indeed they are - very! Anyone who can come up with a method for establishing if they're conductive and if so, to what extent deserves a Nobel Prize, I reckon. If they are water soluble, you might just clean the whole unit in your dishwasher. Depends on whether the aim is repair, or donation to science. If the latter - ship to mfr in sealed bag with note attached - expect no response. RL I won't be sending it back to the makers; like you say they're an ungrateful bunch. I'd like to power the board up and check for signs of life - see if that xtal's working and so forth. But in view of those growths it seems pointless unless I can get the back off and inspect the reverse side for further signs of it spreading. But I don't want to risk damaging it in the process. I'm not very good with practical things like that. They invariably take FAR longer than I expect at the outset - and then I get threatened with divorce. |
#74
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Tin Whiskers? (Was Engine Management Units)
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 10:37:46 -0500, legg wrote:
snip The blemishes you're chasing may have nothing to do with actual fault. The spatter pattern is also suggestive of the impact from an external source, such as a flicked paint brush. Also, it brings to mind patterns produced by spatter from a contaminated air hose jet. RL |
#75
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Engine Management Units
Gunther Heiko Hagen wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:13:46 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote: En el artÃ*culo , escribió: why do the British drink warm beer? So we can actually taste it. Have you drunk warm American beer? It's icy cold to hide the fact that it tastes bloody awful. QED. They don't appear to use hops for flavouring in N. America Then explain why Florida has started farming hops instead of oranges, in many places. |
#76
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Engine Management Units
On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:27:28 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Then explain why Florida has started farming hops instead of oranges, in many places. For export, of course. |
#77
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Engine Management Units
Heiko Hagen wrote:
They don't appear to use hops for flavouring in N. America and Australia, ** America produces 28,000 tonnes of hops per year - practically all of it going into beer. Only Germany produces more, with 34,000 tonnes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hops#C...on_and_harvest Thing is, they probably don't use enough of it in each barrel to suit you. Small and craft brewers generally use a lot more malt and hops per barrel than the big commercial ones. ..... Phil |
#78
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Gunther Heiko Hagen wrote: On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:27:28 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote: Then explain why Florida has started farming hops instead of oranges, in many places. For export, of course. Wrong! They are being sold to micro breweries in the United States. |
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