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Default TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???


TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???


Calibration. To calibrate.


With regards to TV sets - of any type - I suspect two things
have stood in the way of this process: #1. Most set owners
and folks in general, outside of the scientific community,
don't know what the dang word even means! And #2. Modern
digital TVs are so "good" most people think they don't even
need calibration.


Succinctly, calibration means to align something to a given
standard, or set of standards. These standards may be
physical, electrical, chemical, or in the case of image
reproduction, a certain range of color and brightness when
standardized patterns are displayed on a TV.

==========
The way I have recently started to explain what I do to
TVs to the average person is to draw a basic shape on a
piece of paper, I.E. a triangle. To the right of that I draw an
arrow, then a rectangular box, another arrow, and a blank
space.

I then show this to the person, explaining that the triangle
is the subject on TV, and the box is their TV set. I then
ask them what should they see to the right of all that, after
it comes out of their TV set. They answer, "a triangle"?

So I draw a circle! (or, a distorted triangle)

The person looks at me, "what?"

I tell them, without calibration, this is what your TV does
to the image of subjects transmitted to it, via inaccurate
color, off tint, or too bright or incorrect contrast. Your
TV may wow you out of the box, but that factory setting
was intended to SELL IT to you, not for long-term TV or
movie viewing, or game playing. Plus, it may shorten the
set's life.

I then explain the two types of calibration: Basic(brightness,
contrast, sharpness, color, tint - the basic user controls),
and, advanced(Basic, plus internal color temperature and
grayscale alignment.). I then explain that most reputable
brands of TVs today(Sony, JVC, Samsung, Pioneer) will
deliver an accurate picture with just the basic controls properly
set. Cheapo brands(Daewoo, Insignia), or older CRT(tube)
TVs might need more advanced additional adjustments to
get them in line.

If they ask me what all this will do, I tell them: You will see,
if not exactly, an image much closer to what the producer or
tv control room engineers see when they make a TV show
or a movie. Plus, the image will be far less stressful to the
eye, and you might even save energy!
==========


This usually sells them, instead of just asking them,
would you like your TV "calibrated"?


Calibration is a big, nerdy, multi-syllable word that few
understand, and perhaps shouldn't even be used to
describe the process of aligning a display and making
it transparent to whatever is shown on it.


No WONDER "display calibration" or "tv calibration"
has fallen out of favor!


Waiting for the crickets ....

- Switch accounts - Desktop
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Default TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???

Well that's all fine and good, but why did you use the form of a question in the title ?

Anyway, there is a disk out there called "Video Essentials" which is supposedly a great aid in doing that. However, for an accurate greyscale you need something to which to compare. For video cameras they had what were called lightboxes which supposedly had a specific color temperature. With a monitor, maybe you can compare to a high brightness piece of paper lit by a lamp with a specific color temperature. Or perhaps sunlight.

Though things can run off still, it is nowhere near as bad as CRTs were. If they weren't burned in enough after cathode activation they would drift, and later those miniature cathodes got hotter with increased beam current and drifted, necessitating AKB. (Auto Kine Balance) And then there is convergence and purity. The Earth's magnetic field affected the purity quite a bit, and convergence to a lesser degree, except on projection TVs.

The LCD TVs do not really have these problems, they are going to inherently be more accurate out of the box. Same with plasmas but the phosphors in a plasma can weaken with age like any other phosphor. Someone told me the gas in them wears out, and that reduces color temperature. I do not believe it, that should affect all colors equally. I think the blue phosphor wears out first. Blue phosphors are the least efficient and therefore will get more drive.

While there are no cathodes, the phosphor does still burn in and weaken with heavy use.

There is no convergence or purity adjustment on plasma or LCD (which includes what they call LED now). Greyscale and color demodulation, are all there is, and with other than NTSC (composite or SVHS) there is no color demodulation either.
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wrote: "Well that's all fine and good, but why did you use the form of a question in the title?"


Because it seems in the last 10 years calibration, or at least the
very concept of it, is becoming marginalized, less relevant. The
occurrence of the word "calibration" has dropped significantly
since the early 2000s according to searches I conducted in
usenet groups related to video technology and production.


I sincerely want to share my calibration experiences with others
because I'm so excited by what it has done for my TV and video
viewing experience. My problem is adjusting my "elevator speech"
so that the common man(woman) 'get' what calibration does for
their equipment and their viewing.
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Default TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???


I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech. Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.


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wrote: "
The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them.
In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.

G² "

So if I understand you correctly, If you were to buy a brand new
flat panel set, connect it all up and start watching it, you would
leave the user menu settings all in their factory positions?


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Default TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 8:13:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???


Calibration. To calibrate.


With regards to TV sets - of any type - I suspect two things
have stood in the way of this process: #1. Most set owners
and folks in general, outside of the scientific community,
don't know what the dang word even means! And #2. Modern
digital TVs are so "good" most people think they don't even
need calibration.


Succinctly, calibration means to align something to a given
standard, or set of standards. These standards may be
physical, electrical, chemical, or in the case of image
reproduction, a certain range of color and brightness when
standardized patterns are displayed on a TV.

==========
The way I have recently started to explain what I do to
TVs to the average person is to draw a basic shape on a
piece of paper, I.E. a triangle. To the right of that I draw an
arrow, then a rectangular box, another arrow, and a blank
space.

I then show this to the person, explaining that the triangle
is the subject on TV, and the box is their TV set. I then
ask them what should they see to the right of all that, after
it comes out of their TV set. They answer, "a triangle"?

So I draw a circle! (or, a distorted triangle)

The person looks at me, "what?"

I tell them, without calibration, this is what your TV does
to the image of subjects transmitted to it, via inaccurate
color, off tint, or too bright or incorrect contrast. Your
TV may wow you out of the box, but that factory setting
was intended to SELL IT to you, not for long-term TV or
movie viewing, or game playing. Plus, it may shorten the
set's life.

I then explain the two types of calibration: Basic(brightness,
contrast, sharpness, color, tint - the basic user controls),
and, advanced(Basic, plus internal color temperature and
grayscale alignment.). I then explain that most reputable
brands of TVs today(Sony, JVC, Samsung, Pioneer) will
deliver an accurate picture with just the basic controls properly
set. Cheapo brands(Daewoo, Insignia), or older CRT(tube)
TVs might need more advanced additional adjustments to
get them in line.

If they ask me what all this will do, I tell them: You will see,
if not exactly, an image much closer to what the producer or
tv control room engineers see when they make a TV show
or a movie. Plus, the image will be far less stressful to the
eye, and you might even save energy!
==========


This usually sells them, instead of just asking them,
would you like your TV "calibrated"?


Calibration is a big, nerdy, multi-syllable word that few
understand, and perhaps shouldn't even be used to
describe the process of aligning a display and making
it transparent to whatever is shown on it.


No WONDER "display calibration" or "tv calibration"
has fallen out of favor!


Waiting for the crickets ....

- Switch accounts - Desktop


That would depend. We have a Panasonic Plasma TV - the factory settings are *very* bright and the color mix verges on the cartoonish. "Calibrating" in that case allows the user to set the color range, average brightness and similar parameters to a more reasonable setting. One can purchase a 'kit' to help with this, and/or use other means to get the colors true. Once done, as otherwise noted, the system seems to remain remarkably stable, even through power-failures.

That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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That would depend. We have a Panasonic Plasma TV - the factory settings are *very* bright and the color mix verges on the cartoonish. "

So you have observed, and agree, that factory default
settings on consumer TVs such as your Panasonic and
on my Samsung LED are not ideal for extended viewing.



"Calibrating" in that case allows the user to set the color range, average brightness and similar parameters to a more reasonable setting. One can purchase a 'kit' to help with this, and/or use other means to get the colors true. Once done, as otherwise noted, the system seems to remain remarkably stable, even through power-failures. "

And you agree with calibration in your particular case. I
did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
example).

That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
- UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
should not drift for at least a decade.



"That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit. "

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA "

Not sure what you mean by "term of art".
Please elaborate.
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On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 9:29:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:

And you agree with calibration in your particular case. I
did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
example).


No, I stated that the settings, once done, were remarkably stable, even through power-failures. I did have to re-calibrate after a 6-day failure (Hurricane Sandy), but not for failures as long as several hours.

That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
- UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
should not drift for at least a decade.

I have not experienced that need - we switched about 2 years ago from a basic DVD player to a compatible, self-upgrading blue-ray DVD with no visible need to re-calibrate - and the software with the kit verified this.


"That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit. "


Not sure what you mean by "term of art".
Please elaborate.


Term-of-Art: A word, combination of words or phrase specific to one thing that is used outside of its common definition. To me the term "calibrate" is specific to measuring devices, meters, tube testers, signal generators, rotameters, gauges and so forth that are set to a specific standard such that measurements from them can be trusted. I would not generally consider arbitrary settings based, in part, on taste rather than independent standards, would be any sort of 'calibration'. At least, again, as I understand and would normally use the term. There are those that prefer bright settings and cartoonish colors. De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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"me the term "calibrate" is specific to measuring devices, meters, tube testers, signal generators, rotameters, gauges and so forth that are set to a specific standard."

Likewise! DVD test patterns also count,
as long as one follows instructions on
what to look for when the specific
control(brightness, contrast) is adjusted
optimally.

I still sense a lot of skepticism in your
responses regarding display ALIGNMENT -
there, I just found a new name for it that
makes sense!
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On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 9:37:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech. Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.


Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching. Digital signal,
not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors.
If you use your TV for a computer monitor, though, and have a color printer:
you ought to calibrate the video card or the printer driver so that the
color prints produce the same colors as the screen display.
Getting the correspondence right is important for artistic uses,
and requires
(1) controlling reflected light off the screen
(2) getting as much color gamut and contrast on the screen as on the paper (not
easy, might require special paper)
(3) controlling the illumination light when viewing printed material
(4) adjusting R, G, B zero points
(5) adjusting R, G, B brightnesses
(6) adjusting for any nonlinearity (usually called 'gamma correction') for R, G, B
(7) readjusting from time to time, as papers, inks, phosphors may age.

It can be hard to find and rectify any adjustments. Or, it can be easy - Apple made a
ColorSync monitor with internal light sensors that did recalibration in a few seconds if you pressed
the front-panel button).


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On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 2:58:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
"me the term "calibrate" is specific to measuring devices, meters, tube testers, signal generators, rotameters, gauges and so forth that are set to a specific standard."

Likewise! DVD test patterns also count,
as long as one follows instructions on
what to look for when the specific
control(brightness, contrast) is adjusted
optimally.

I still sense a lot of skepticism in your
responses regarding display ALIGNMENT -
there, I just found a new name for it that
makes sense!


Mpffff..... Here we go again....

Alignment: My primary hobby is vintage radio restoration and repair, so "alignment" is a very specific term. Shifting that term from rF to Visual alignment is not a stretch, just not what leaped to mind when I read your assignment of this term to that process. Telescope people call it "collimation", musicians call it "tuning" but they are all forms of aligning some sort of information for greater accuracy/clarity.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 1:24:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:

So if I understand you correctly, If you were to buy a brand new
flat panel set, connect it all up and start watching it, you would
leave the user menu settings all in their factory positions?


No. That looked bad because it was in 'store demo' mode. I don't consider the 'user adjustments' namely brightness, contrast, saturation (color), back light and sharpness to fall into the 'calibration' category. Calibration to me involves individual RGB gain, lift and gamma. These were finicky with CRTs but don't need much if any tweaking with LED lit LCD sets.


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whit3rd wrote: "Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching.
Digital signal, not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors. "

So I will ask you the same question: If you bought and unboxed a
brand new flat panel TV for your home, would you leave the user
and semi-advanced settings in their factory mode? Have you
actually seen a TV(any TV, CRT, Plasma, LED, etc) in its factory
defaults?


Again, I'm talking about the SETTINGS, not the broadcast or cable
signal fed into the back of it. And no, for the purposes of this dis-
cussion, there is no concern of "drift" because we are in the micro-
circuit digital realm.
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Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.


Just taking it out of Vivid, and turning
off all that CRAP in the advance menu
gets you from some vague location in
the South Bronx INTO Yankee Stadium,
in terms of accuracy! The professional
calibration we discussed here will take
you from a seat somewhere in the right-
field upper deck right onto home plate.


And there are no "personal preferences"
when it comes to picture settings - only
one right combination of basic and
advanced controls, and 1,000 possible
WRONG combinations.


it's your choice: Stare at the sun every
night during the 6 o'clock news, or see
what the host and the world through the
cameras really looks like.
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Default TV Pictu What Does "Calibration" Mean???

In article ,
whit3rd wrote:

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 9:37:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many
monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech.
Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new
TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to
'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you
to touch my TV.


Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching.
Digital signal,
not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors.
If you use your TV for a computer monitor, though, and have a color printer:
you ought to calibrate the video card or the printer driver so that the
color prints produce the same colors as the screen display.
Getting the correspondence right is important for artistic uses,
and requires
(1) controlling reflected light off the screen
(2) getting as much color gamut and contrast on the screen as on the paper
(not easy, might require special paper)


I'm pretty sure it's the other way around -- any decent screen will have
a much broader gamut than any subtractive color process (i.e. any sort
of image printed on paper). Same with contrast ratio -- the screen wins
by an order of magnitude or better.

Isaac


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Cyndrome Leader wrote: wrote:
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.


The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.

The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions. "


Cyndrome:
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!

As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.

Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,
color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.

What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.
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wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote: wrote:
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.


The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.

The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions. "


Cyndrome:
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!


The backlights themselves are really just too blue. This is a problem of
sorts when laptops went from CCFL backlighting to LEDs- the color temp
went way too high. It can probably be adjusted, somehow, but it doesn't
help the color is just wrong to start with.

As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.


they all match pretty much, even in a place like best buy. All those
cheapo LCD panels are probably coming out of the same 3 plants. Nobody
cares about special phosphors or dot patterns or shadow masks like in CRT
days. Sure there's cheap and expensive display panels, but they just don't
seem to vary all that much otherwise.

Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,


Even half brightness, they're still too blue too look natural.

color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.

What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.


I'll restate what I said before- LCDs lack the color and brightness
variations that affected CRTs. Default settings have always been and are
still pretty horrible, but at least these days if you buy a demo LCD TV,
it's safe to say the thing isn't already worn out like a CRT would have
been trying to dazzle customers with every setting turned way up.

For viewing at home, I use an Epson projector that seems to have 3 CCDs
and the starndard arc lamp. I forgot what the default factory settings
were, but they were garish and made even the OSD menu setup hard to look
at. It had to be something like high brightness, 14k color temp and no
doubt some sort of vivid control cranked way up. I did not bother with any
real calibration, but made sure white looked white and the brightness was
reduced so that set so that "black" on the screen looked black, even
though the screen itself is white.

How do you suggest adjusting a projection system?






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Cydrome Leader wrote:

wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote: wrote:
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.


The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.

The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions. "


Cyndrome:
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!


The backlights themselves are really just too blue. This is a problem of
sorts when laptops went from CCFL backlighting to LEDs- the color temp
went way too high. It can probably be adjusted, somehow, but it doesn't
help the color is just wrong to start with.

As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.


they all match pretty much, even in a place like best buy. All those
cheapo LCD panels are probably coming out of the same 3 plants. Nobody
cares about special phosphors or dot patterns or shadow masks like in CRT
days. Sure there's cheap and expensive display panels, but they just don't
seem to vary all that much otherwise.

Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,


Even half brightness, they're still too blue too look natural.

color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.

What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.


I'll restate what I said before- LCDs lack the color and brightness
variations that affected CRTs. Default settings have always been and are
still pretty horrible, but at least these days if you buy a demo LCD TV,
it's safe to say the thing isn't already worn out like a CRT would have
been trying to dazzle customers with every setting turned way up.

For viewing at home, I use an Epson projector that seems to have 3 CCDs
and the starndard arc lamp. I forgot what the default factory settings
were, but they were garish and made even the OSD menu setup hard to look
at. It had to be something like high brightness, 14k color temp and no
doubt some sort of vivid control cranked way up. I did not bother with any
real calibration, but made sure white looked white and the brightness was
reduced so that set so that "black" on the screen looked black, even
though the screen itself is white.

How do you suggest adjusting a projection system?




WHite LEDs are actually blue, with a phosphor to make it into
something near white light. They fail in that attempt.
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Cyndrome wrote: "How do you suggest adjusting a projection system? "

A Blu-Ray Digital Video Essentials disc
*should* produce the same results for
your projector as it would for any flat
panel HDTV. Just follow all instructions.


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"The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates."


Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.

The LEDS are chosen for the high blue output because to use the display to lower the color temperature is much cheaper than to raise it. In terms of brightness. And it does not react as well as CRTs did. But in both, if you DO want higher color temperature you need to boost the blue. Reducing the red and green is not the right way to do it.

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wrote: "Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will
be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.

^Correck!^


Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.

A damned SHAME, as is their attitude when I
offer to make it better:

"It's fine the way it is"

"It's brand new; that's the way it's
supposed to look."

"LEAVE IT ALONE"....


And that's the toughest part of
being a calibrator - or at least,
someone who knows better.
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Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.

How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.

And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration **** together.
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On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:54:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.

How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.

And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration **** together.


___
Actually jurb, the default TV settings are like
having the bass & treble jacked fully clockwise,
or the graphic equalizers set like smileys -
middle sliders down, and sliders toward the ends
higher and higher.

As far as aspect ratio is concerned, 16:9 or
"screen fit" will accommodate most viewing
scenarios. I'm really annoyed by those who
insist on stretching 4:3(old fashioned TV)
pictures to fit their wide-screen HD theater,
so J.J. from "Good Times" looks wider than
superintendent Bookman. LOL!
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For those that don't think calibration - or at least
proper adjustment of the basic six controls - is
important:

http://www.avdomotics.com/listmanage...calibrated.jpg



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How do you prefer your Kidman? ...

http://www.recordere.dk/indhold/arti...1270-isf7b.jpg
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote: wrote:
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.

The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.

The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions. "


Cyndrome:
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!


The backlights themselves are really just too blue. This is a problem of
sorts when laptops went from CCFL backlighting to LEDs- the color temp
went way too high. It can probably be adjusted, somehow, but it doesn't
help the color is just wrong to start with.

As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.


they all match pretty much, even in a place like best buy. All those
cheapo LCD panels are probably coming out of the same 3 plants. Nobody
cares about special phosphors or dot patterns or shadow masks like in CRT
days. Sure there's cheap and expensive display panels, but they just don't
seem to vary all that much otherwise.

Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,


Even half brightness, they're still too blue too look natural.

color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.

What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.


I'll restate what I said before- LCDs lack the color and brightness
variations that affected CRTs. Default settings have always been and are
still pretty horrible, but at least these days if you buy a demo LCD TV,
it's safe to say the thing isn't already worn out like a CRT would have
been trying to dazzle customers with every setting turned way up.

For viewing at home, I use an Epson projector that seems to have 3 CCDs
and the starndard arc lamp. I forgot what the default factory settings
were, but they were garish and made even the OSD menu setup hard to look
at. It had to be something like high brightness, 14k color temp and no
doubt some sort of vivid control cranked way up. I did not bother with any
real calibration, but made sure white looked white and the brightness was
reduced so that set so that "black" on the screen looked black, even
though the screen itself is white.

How do you suggest adjusting a projection system?




WHite LEDs are actually blue, with a phosphor to make it into
something near white light. They fail in that attempt.


yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters.
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Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.
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On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
com wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.


Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?


Not the backlight - the overall picture.


I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).


"harsh blue, as it should be" ???

Are you serious?



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Cydrome Leader wrote: wrote:

"exactly. If you try to compensate for a horrible backlight you're going to
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show. "

And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
correct color gamut.


"Serious. 10k color temp looks bad on a good monitor, and that temp is even
far exceeded by cheap displays. "

So given that, and your first quoted statement
above, would you still keep the OOB settings
on a consumer display, or would you at least
attempt to get the basic settings closer to
standardized positions?
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On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 6:58:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.


We bought our first flat screen this year when a CRT finally died. (still have 3 more in the garage, can't get rid of them)

I did not know there were settings until I read this thread.

I do recall the colors didn't look quite right at first, but ....sigh......we got used to them.

So you're making a good case for some adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual?
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On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:54:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.


Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color.

First, a confession: Due to this being one of the facets of my hobby, I have no less than seven (7) functioning, dedicated audio systems in play. Four are in my "radio room" one in the living room, and the most serious one in the library. The seventh is at our summer house, and is primarily a weekend warrior. Speakers range from AR3a to Magnepan MG-IIIa, and include both Revox and AR sub-sat systems as well as vintage AR M5s. So, the vice has been well-established. The house is a center-hall colonial with 10' ceilings, plaster walls, hardwood floors and lots of wood trim. Room sizes vary from 17' x 24' x 10' (library) to 12' x 15' x 9' (radio room).

a) I have found that with some care and a very understanding wife, speakers may be placed in about any room without needing equalization.
b) Getting a good soundstage - which is emphatically NOT a single point - is a little more difficult, but not impossible - and why I favor placing speakers on the long wall of a room, not the short wall.
c) There are times when I will use the bass/treble/midrange controls on my pre-amps - but that will be specific to a recording, not a general setting. I do also own an equalizer - but in the last 10 years, it has seen use only to the extent that I make sure it is working properly. And I also own a Citation 17 with equalization built-in, nice but not much used.
d) I find that adequate power such that one may achieve substantial volume without the threat of clipping is far more useful to good sound than any sort of 'shaping' applied to the signal. I have a (very) few recordings with a peak-to-average of very nearly 30dB, such that 'enough power' is not an idle expectation.

Things that are 'there to be used' are often not of much use if any thought is applied.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/46/156...1ea5a376db.jpg

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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"And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
correct color gamut. "


No. here is a reason there were no LED LCD TVs in the past. They could not get the color right because the wavelengths they needed were simply not there. So they built those HV supplies and used those CCFLs with their own special phosphor. Well it isn't all that special.

The LCD panel has to separate the colors, and there are only so many efficient ways of doing that. You have to have the colors it needs. The spectral output has to be right and matched to not only the panel, but the circuitry.. The days of the 90 degree color demodulation angle being the last word are over. Red is not really red, green is not really green and blue is not really blue. At least as defined by the old standard. They can do whatever they want now, and DLPs took to using seven colors. Like having a seven gun CRT. Try just demodulating I and Q now. (the original red and blue signals, kinda)

One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ?


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"Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color. "

You an AKer ?

Anyway, in response, speakers run 5, 6, 7 dB off, microphones about the same. Amps, tuners, whatever, consider them good within 3 dB. And people are afraid to use tone controls ? Where is that in the Bible ? Where is that in the Constitution ?

What's more, when turned all the way up that bass control is doing what it is supposed to do. Or all the way down. It was endowed by its creator with that ability. It is your free will to use it or abuse it. Like a gun, well at least as far as some woofers are concerned but they are just paranoid...

Bose had no shame in using a permanent EQ. Neither did I. Years ago I had speakers used to have a small woofer and like an 8 or 10 inch passive radiator which I replaced with a four ohm woofer.

It was not good, but using the full range off a Soundcraftsmen ten band EQ I got them to sound good. And when I played a few other things on them I started liking them better and better. Damn that bass was smooth.

The settings were 31 Hz at +max, 62 at 0, 125 Hz at -max (min) and the rest gradually up to the center from there to about the sixth band. It sounded fantastic, but was inefficient as hell. First of all it was 2.3 ohms, poison to at least half of the amps known in existence, or not actually...

The lights dimmed when I cranked these babies up. Eventually they became the rear channels in my quad system. Fed them with a supposedly low power Sansui 771. I scoped it once and don;t remember the reading but it was well over a hundred a channel into that 2.3 ohms. The front was the Marantz 4270 running into speakers I put together. A 12 inch three way system, decent dome tweeters, noting fancy ad did not sound perfect, but I had an EQ for them as well. Separate EQs for front and back. Yup.

Once set, I believe the sound was damn hard to beat. Nobody did back then, at least in the current crowd. And I had it with the Advent five foot silver screen job with the mirror out front, AND MINE WAS CALIBRATED. Someone has just changed all three CRTs but it had another problem nobody could fix. Nobody else that is.

You look at these things and the picture is trapezoidal, the convergence is ****, you can't read the letters sometimes because it is so bad. Not mine. Mine was perfect. Convergence within a raster line width everywhere on the screen. I figured out a little design defect that was keeping the others from having that. It was radiation from one wire to another, polluting one of the waveforms going to the convergence waveform board. It caused an error at the right side and most people just made it overscan, not me. On a five foot diagonal screen my overscan was less than an inch on each side. Now remember how long ago this was. Your TV picture got smaller when your fridge started not long before that.

I wouldn't mind having one of those old sets now. Not that I have anywhere to put it, but if I did...
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wrote: "One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ? "


This will be my last reply to you, since
it seems your mind is clearly closed to
TV calibration:

My ref. source is one of several good
test pattern DVDs out the HD Digital
Video Essentials on Blu-Ray, Spears &
Munsil, etc. There are also pattern
generators out there, from Quantum
and Spectra Cal. You put up the patterns,
stick a sensor on your screen, and adjust
what the laptop software tells you to.

And now you are on your own. I'm going
to respond to someone who at least
seems curious about this subject.
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Tim R. wrote: "So you're making a good case for some
adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual? "

Welcome to the newsgroup!

The owners manual mainly explains
how to access the settings and (sort
of) what each control does.

I can get you started, but first I need
to know what type of flat panel you
have: LCD/LED(both are backlit) or
Plasma.

For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
skin tone enhancer, black level
enhancer, edge enhancer, and
digital noise reduction.

Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).

Start with those things and tell me
what you see. It will not be as bright
as you were used with those showroom
settings, but it's not supposed to be.
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On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 6:14:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:

For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
skin tone enhancer, black level
enhancer, edge enhancer, and
digital noise reduction.

Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).


I did that (except I realize I left noise reduction on) and I get a kind of washed out appearance, like water colors instead of oils. I left it that way to see if I'd get used to it. My wife and daughter have not commented - really they watch the majority of TV. But I didn't tell them what I did, I'll wait a day and ask.

What made the most difference was removing Vivid.
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Tim R:

OK. Next I need you to select
picture mode "Standard" or
"Custom". I need to know the
scale and present setting of each
of the following:

Backlight
Contrast
Brightness
Color
Tint/Hue
Sharpness.

I.E. "Contrast: 0..........50.......100, presently 90.

etc.

Before you do that, check color temperature
setting. Move it to Neutral, or Warm1, if available.
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