Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #211   Report Post  
Old September 26th 15, 07:27 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:55:49 +0000 (UTC), Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen
wrote:

Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.


What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?


Have you actually seen any factual data that they were providing more
fuel? From the little bit of decent info I've seen it looked more
like they were trying to extend the life of some "filter" by turning
the filter "off" and just letting the stuff fly out the tailpipe.

some info here..
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...explainer.html

  #212   Report Post  
Old September 26th 15, 07:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:56:01 +0000 (UTC), JJ
wrote:

Ewald Böhm wrote in message


Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.


Was the software really all that "sophisticated"?

The NY Times said it was "sophisticated".
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/bu...boardroom.html

I think it was just brazen.



No reason it can't be both.
  #213   Report Post  
Old September 26th 15, 07:58 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

"The VW cars in queston are DIESEL, not gas. "

I have to admit that at first I didn't catch that. But then I did. However, doesn't the same apply ? The theory of EGR is to starve it for O2 a bit so the burning slows down. That should apply here as well.

But then I am not completely versed in all the pumps etc. these things may use. There was a time when they could not use a catalytic convertor on a diesel. Apparently things have changed. but what was presented really did seem to indicate that turning off the EGR except during a test was the issue. That is the impression I got in the beginning.

However, now other things are coming out, for one the allowing more fuel. But aren't those diesels just like the biguns ? There is no throttle, the injection pump determines the power output. Am I wrong here ? Where the hell would I get such information ? I can't just walk into a car lot and start taking apart their cars to find out.

As far as I know, diesels takes in all the air they can get so there is no controlling the mixture. It needs all that air to ignite the fuel. Putting in more fuel should not cool the burn, just make it burn more. Without a throttle plate the mixture is what it is and there is nothing that can be done.

Therefore the only way to control N2O is by EGR, and the article did state that the N2O may have been 40 times the limit.

Another poster somewhere in thread mentioned they should think about all this gas mileage and consider the pollution produced in the refining (cracking) process. Governments can be pennywise and poundfoolish really when it comes to things that require gray matter. Like what they did to flourescent lights. When I was in business I used them because they were more efficient and lasted longer. It was not a big business so I generally had the 4 foot 40 watt jobs. They lasted many years.

Then they came out with those frikken energy saving jobs and they not only flickered worse when cold, they also did not last as long. they totally disregarded the pollution caused not only by manufacturing more bulbs, but all the **** in the landfills.

One of these days I am going to contact the bleeding heart liberals about this. Lead free solder is used because of planned obsolescence, or actual planned failure to the point of unrepairability. This must stop.

Catalytic convertors are still mandated even though they are almost useless.. At least in gas cars, with the computer they can run so clean they do not need it. In fact they could be tuned for better mileage and performance without it because there HAS to be some pollution and oxygen in the exhaust to keep the cat lit. The mixture cannot be stoichometric, which would be the ideal and pretty much the exhaust, except for mostly nitrogen, CO2 and H2O.. But there would be nothing to catalyse.

Yup, they actually pollute on purpose to test the convertor. How does that grabya ? They are putting gout more heat, and less power and efficiency by mandate.

Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here. At least it seems. The fact is that these politicians are such mother****ers that they may well know EXACTLY what they're doing.

Maybe. Generally, I have found intelligent people to be more trustworthy than idiots. They know the consequences of their actions. They become socially and morally responsible. So that means an intelligent politician might just be an oxymoron.
  #214   Report Post  
Old September 27th 15, 01:58 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards


I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.


What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.
  #215   Report Post  
Old September 27th 15, 05:05 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

"What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3. "


Ahh, the "FQ".

The Fahrvergnügen Quotient.


  #216   Report Post  
Old September 28th 15, 03:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards


I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.


What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.


My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if they
can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the state or
feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another recall.
  #217   Report Post  
Old September 28th 15, 07:01 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:48:22 -1000, dsi1 wrote:

On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.


What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.


My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if they
can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the state or
feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another recall.



A software fix would be OK if it doesn't wind up overloading the
filter/particle trap every 30 days requiring it to be serviced.
  #218   Report Post  
Old September 28th 15, 05:42 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

dsi1 wrote:
On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.


My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if they
can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the state or
feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another recall.


You won't be able to ignore it. The EPA has a LOT more power than the
NHYSA does. They will simply blacklist the VIN numbers of all the
vehicles that are not in compliance with the regulations.

Owners will probably get a letter telling them that they have XXX days
to get to a dealer and have the fix done. If they don't they will get a
letter from the Feds telling them that they are driving a non-compliant
vehicle and that the registration has been suspended.


--
Steve W.
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Old September 29th 15, 02:18 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
SMS SMS is offline
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/20/2015 3:49 PM, sms wrote:

snip

I had a smog check this morning on a 2007 Camry. The shop had a new
machine for newer vehicles. Since September 2013, 2000 and newer
vehicles no longer get tested on the dynamometer and no longer get a
probe shoved up their tailpipe. The whole test is done via the OBD-II
port (as well as a visual inspection).

For diesel vehicles you can see the details he
http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm

So clearly VW was not just looking at wheel rotation, they probably
turned on the emission controls whenever they detected something reading
the sensors. I wonder if an ELM327 transceiver or a Progressive
"Snapshot" would have any effect.
  #220   Report Post  
Old September 29th 15, 03:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/28/2015 6:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
dsi1 wrote:
On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.
What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.


My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if
they can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the
state or feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another
recall.


You won't be able to ignore it. The EPA has a LOT more power than the
NHYSA does. They will simply blacklist the VIN numbers of all the
vehicles that are not in compliance with the regulations.

Owners will probably get a letter telling them that they have XXX days
to get to a dealer and have the fix done. If they don't they will get a
letter from the Feds telling them that they are driving a non-compliant
vehicle and that the registration has been suspended.



The way I see it, it's just another recall and the feds should just
grant an exception for the victims of this scam. I think that's an easy
solution to this problem.


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