Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #111   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 06:05 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf

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Old September 22nd 15, 06:15 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:05:54 -0700, Jack Black wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf


VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module
(ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for
compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is
calling this the "switch".

The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on
various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed,
the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure.

These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure
used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA
emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant
emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the
"dyno calibration".
  #113   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 10:08 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

" I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long."

Sorry. Seems like you are a good person and projecting, trying to think everyone else is good.

That ain't how it is. Companies have a roomful of lawyers and accountant who do nothing but figure out odds on how much they can break the law or endanger people with a cheap design, versus how much it will cost them if they get caught, or have lawsuits. It is like playing poker. If you now ht you're doing, it is all a matter of real odds versus pot odds. that is how they think. That is how they stay on the board of directors, because they live the company on the edge. And if they don't they are voted out.
  #114   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 01:56 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote:

snip

I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
stationary. That seems plausible to me.


Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense.

  #115   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 02:11 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

I think a potato stuffed up the exhaust pipe would do just as much at half
the cost.



  #116   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 02:37 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

| My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?
|

I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
discrepancy between testing and on-road
results. But they've been haggling with VW
all this time and somehow never thought to look
at the software. Is the software accessible to
EPA? Do they have developers who could
understand it?

How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
important issue. They only found out because they
threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
VW execs admitted what they were doing.
(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
don't have to.)

... Then of course there's the question that begs
to be asked: How could all of those executives,
in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
global warming". But VW customers are almost a
cult following, and mostly liberal.


  #117   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 02:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 2015-09-22, Mayayana wrote:
There should be arrests.


Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists
that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This
resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other
countries following our lead:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/v...ry.asp?id=1259

--
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NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
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  #118   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 03:07 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Mayayana wrote:
I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
discrepancy between testing and on-road
results. But they've been haggling with VW
all this time and somehow never thought to look
at the software. Is the software accessible to
EPA? Do they have developers who could
understand it?


No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not
only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.

How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
important issue. They only found out because they
threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
VW execs admitted what they were doing.
(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
don't have to.)


Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and
I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of
interesting games would be found.

... Then of course there's the question that begs
to be asked: How could all of those executives,
in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?


THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that
needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next
annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
global warming". But VW customers are almost a
cult following, and mostly liberal.


Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code
needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the
government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to
be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as
China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to
learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any
means possible). But, it's necessary.

If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take
on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use
arresting.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #119   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 03:13 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-22, Mayayana wrote:
There should be arrests.


Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists
that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This
resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other
countries following our lead:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/v...ry.asp?id=1259


This article is not exactly accurate.

In the fifties, DDT was amazing, it worked great. We put it between our
sheets. You could spray it in the air and see insects dropping out right
and left.

But... by the seventies, mosquitoes (at least in Hawaii where I lived)
had pretty much become immune to the stuff. Enormous, absolutely enormous
amounts were necessary to kill insects. This is why there were environmental
effects. My father had a gadget that would drop a mix of diesel and DDT into
the muffler of the lawnmower and the smoke would kill mosquitoes, but by
the seventies it wasn't killing them any more, even with a couple pounds of
the stuff being burned.

Give it another forty years or so and we might be able to start using DDT
in a small way again. But it was the massive overuse and abuse of DDT that
got us to the point where it was banned, not some crazy left-wind conspiracy.

And yes, it WAS one of the big weapons in the fight against malaria, and it
was a crime to lose that weapon. But it wasn't politicians that lost it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #120   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 03:50 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 837
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 09/22/2015 7:07 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
discrepancy between testing and on-road
results. But they've been haggling with VW
all this time and somehow never thought to look
at the software. Is the software accessible to
EPA? Do they have developers who could
understand it?


No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not
only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.

How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
important issue. They only found out because they
threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
VW execs admitted what they were doing.
(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
don't have to.)


Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and
I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of
interesting games would be found.

... Then of course there's the question that begs
to be asked: How could all of those executives,
in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?


THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that
needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next
annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
global warming". But VW customers are almost a
cult following, and mostly liberal.


Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code
needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the
government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to
be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as
China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to
learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any
means possible). But, it's necessary.

If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take
on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use
arresting.
--scott


Not just John Dee

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-hig...tmare-farmers/

https://dmca.digitalrighttorepair.org/

John :-#(#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


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