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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On 07/27/2015 7:06 PM, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


Have you had any other fans of the same make/model running on just
115VAC to see if they run any longer? They could be just cheap fans
whose oil dries up.

Hard to see where a SS AC Relay could hurt an induction motor if the
motor isn't overheating.

Does the fan still spin? Is there continuity in the winding?

John :-#)#

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On 28/07/2015 03:06, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


Do you do TIG/MIG welding in this garage?
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http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
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On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm


https://goo.gl/TCo6MH


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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans



Hard to see where a SS AC Relay could hurt an induction motor if the
motor isn't overheating.

Does the fan still spin? Is there continuity in the winding?

John :-#)#

The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? Perhaps the overheat sensor has opened permenently. Home Depot gave me a replacement so I will try it again. These fans typically last for many years when plugged directly into a wall socket. This is a real mystery to me. Perhaps SS relays generate some large spikes on their output? I should check it with a scope.
Thanks for the comments.
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:15:20 AM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
On 28/07/2015 03:06, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK..
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


Do you do TIG/MIG welding in this garage?


No. I don't own a TIG/MIG welder.
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm


Thanks for the detailed treatise on mechanical relays. But I am using a solid state relay (SSR).
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Deane Williams
wrote:



Hard to see where a SS AC Relay could hurt an induction motor if the
motor isn't overheating.

Does the fan still spin? Is there continuity in the winding?

John :-#)#

The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? Perhaps the overheat sensor has opened permenently. Home Depot gave me a replacement so I will try it again. These fans typically last for many years when plugged directly into a wall socket. This is a real mystery to me. Perhaps SS relays generate some large spikes on their output? I should check it with a scope.
Thanks for the comments.


You have an interesting problem. I hope you figure it out. I have
never used SS relays, but I can't image they cause spikes and other
anomolies that would kill a simple AC motor. Is the relay rated for
inductive loads?

By the way, I have a similar fan I purchased years ago. I just
measured its DC resistance and found it to be about 18 ohms on its
high setting. Clearly, that number is no indication of its impedance
at 60 Hz while in operation, but it definitely conducts DC. My best
guess is something is causing the motor windings to overheat and
eventually open. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to explain
why that would happen.

Pat

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans


On 29 Jul 15 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article
(Pat) wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Deane Williams
wrote:




Hard to see where a SS AC Relay could hurt an induction motor if
the motor isn't overheating.

Does the fan still spin? Is there continuity in the winding?

John :-#)#

The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the
power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors?
Perhaps the overheat sensor has opened permenently. Home Depot
gave me a replacement so I will try it again. These fans typically
last for many years when plugged directly into a wall socket. This
is a real mystery to me. Perhaps SS relays generate some large
spikes on their output? I should check it with a scope.
Thanks for the comments.


You have an interesting problem. I hope you figure it out. I have
never used SS relays, but I can't image they cause spikes and other
anomolies that would kill a simple AC motor. Is the relay rated for
inductive loads?

By the way, I have a similar fan I purchased years ago. I just
measured its DC resistance and found it to be about 18 ohms on its
high setting. Clearly, that number is no indication of its impedance
at 60 Hz while in operation, but it definitely conducts DC. My best
guess is something is causing the motor windings to overheat and
eventually open. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to explain
why that would happen.


I think but don`t know!
If the SSR is bad (or not designed for inductive load) it may have
different half wave signals, so a DC current may flow thru the motor and
heats the coil (too much). A light bulb didn`t show any defects, because
it converts all current to heat and a little light

Just my 2 cent.

I will recommand a true mechanical relay for this job.


Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On 07/29/2015 11:40 AM, Pat wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:32:06 +0100, MJC
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Deane Williams
wrote:
You have an interesting problem. I hope you figure it out. I have
never used SS relays, but I can't image they cause spikes and other
anomolies that would kill a simple AC motor. Is the relay rated for
inductive loads?


I can't be bothered to study SSRs so I just speculate... Could it be
that the ones you use just deliver one polarity of AC instead of both,
like a rectifier? Resulting in a DC component which the fans do not
like...

Mike.


That's an interesting thought. Even if most SSRs handle full AC,
maybe this particular one is faulty and only passes one polarity. That
would certainly make the fan motor unhappy.

Pat


The motor would run at half speed at best.

The motor won't overheat though unless it stalls/is jammed and can't
self cool.

It is more likely that the motors are just of a cheap quality
construction (for example are the UL or CSA rated?) and fail far too
easily. A SS AC modular relay is simply a high current TRIAC and these
are used on many fans around the world - what do you think a motor speed
control is?

A moments research pulled up this PDF:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pd...utions_ssr.pdf

(quote)

The following will demonstrate the process to determine the effective
ratings of non-motor control rated Solid State Relays for use in motor
control applications:
Example question: “Can I use a standard Solid State Relay (which is not
included in the Crydom Motion Control Brochure and therefore without HP
or KW Motor rating) to control the start/stop of a motor?” The answer:
Yes, you need only to consider the motor nominal current value (FLA),
inrush current value (LRA), motor power factor (typically 0.1 to 0.9) to
select the appropriate turn-on switching type (zero-crossing or random)
and possible need for SSR transient protection to select an appropriate
Solid State Relay.

(end quote)

John :-#(#

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 7:06:47 PM UTC-7, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects.,,, there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.


Three possibilities: your thermostat could be chattering (sending a bouncy-switch signal
to the SSR) and that is causing rectification. Your SSR could be a zero-crossing type, which
is exactly the most stressful motor-start situation (and an inexpensive motor might
take a magnetization at turn-off, then saturate at turn-on, and melt its fusible protector).
Third, the SSR might be susceptible to some other signal than your thermostat (RF
or maybe even input/output feedback oscillation).

If you use an AC relay, it cannot operate fast enough to rectify; if you feed that
AC relay with a triac-output optoisolator, with a smallish capacitor shunting
the input terminals (1 uF?), there ought to be no drive-side problems.
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

"Deane Williams" wrote in message
...

I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends
a 6 VDC battery voltage to
control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans
always quit within 2 months to a
year with no obvious defects.
These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried
several brands and styles of fans.
The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a
SS relay? What is killing the fans? I
have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if
there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


Some induction motors will have a thermal fuse incorporated onto the main
winding.
In the absense of a thermal fuse, this is my amateur speculation:
The switching of the SSR creates voltage spikes. Normally these are easily
absorbed by the induction motor. With enough time and heat, the lacquer
insulation on the motor windings gets brittle, thermal cycling compromises
its ability to insulate, then the voltage spikes begin jumping across high
potential areas (between winding ends or where wire leads are tied to
windings). If there is a capacitor involved, the arc is that much more
spectacular, and the motor's demise quicker.
Scott



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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:15:20 AM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
On 28/07/2015 03:06, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


Do you do TIG/MIG welding in this garage?


No. I don't own a TIG/MIG welder.


You need a non inductive load on the same circuit, along with a
capacitor across it..

Your motor windings are getting killed by the drop out of the TRIAC
at each phase angle. You need to suppress it somehow so that both the
HV pulse that shouldn't be there and lack of lower Z at the base of the
sine wave, for the motor and cap of the motor to properly operate..

These are cheap motors and they run warm to start with, minimum copper
and coating on the wire is used.

Try getting your hands on a motor run capacitor, somewhere around
3..5uf at the proper rated voltage and put that across the load side
of your SSR.

ALso, putting a non-inductive load on the output helps, too...

If you can get a low wattage incandescient bulb that would be fine or
maybe a 5 watt R at around 400 ohms or so across the SSR load, along
with the run cap.

Also, I suspect when you connect these components, you'll also hear a
slight difference of motor noise, which indicates this issue..

SSR switches don't always have a proper snubber in them, so you may
also want to use a 100R and .1 Cap in series around the SSR, back to the
soure so that the load will cycle back to the line on spikes.

Have a good day
Jamie

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

diode the relay

use the resistor

use 2 Tyco/Bosch mechanical relays with diodes for relays and inputs



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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 1:27:35 PM UTC-4, Pat wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Deane Williams
wrote:



Hard to see where a SS AC Relay could hurt an induction motor if the
motor isn't overheating.

Does the fan still spin? Is there continuity in the winding?

John :-#)#

The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? Perhaps the overheat sensor has opened permenently. Home Depot gave me a replacement so I will try it again. These fans typically last for many years when plugged directly into a wall socket. This is a real mystery to me. Perhaps SS relays generate some large spikes on their output? I should check it with a scope.
Thanks for the comments.


You have an interesting problem. I hope you figure it out. I have
never used SS relays, but I can't image they cause spikes and other
anomolies that would kill a simple AC motor. Is the relay rated for
inductive loads?

By the way, I have a similar fan I purchased years ago. I just
measured its DC resistance and found it to be about 18 ohms on its
high setting. Clearly, that number is no indication of its impedance
at 60 Hz while in operation, but it definitely conducts DC. My best
guess is something is causing the motor windings to overheat and
eventually open. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to explain
why that would happen.

Pat


the thermometer rapidly operates relay on and off circuitry passing something of this to the fans who are confused square one without dioding separating the systems unbalanced properties.
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

AC relay with a triac-output optoisolator, with a smallish capacitor shunting
the input terminals (1 uF?), there ought to be no drive-side problems.


///////////

they're mating

http://goo.gl/Dj00S9

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

Deane Williams writes:


The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power p=
lug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? Perhaps the overheat=
sensor has opened permenently.


You got it. As they age the bearing dry and they pull more current.
Eventually they open the Microtemp protecter within....

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David Lesher wrote:

Deane Williams writes:


The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power p=
lug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? Perhaps the overheat=
sensor has opened permenently.


You got it. As they age the bearing dry and they pull more current.
Eventually they open the Microtemp protecter within....



** "The motor still spins easily" contradicts that idea.

Seen a few cheap Chinese fans with tight/stuck bearings - takes a fair bit of solvent to get them spinning again.

The OP has no so far bothered to open a fan a check the motor wiring for continuity.


.... Phil
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

Deane:

What relay are you using?
What is the the motor?

Some SSR bricks designed for this purpose have 3-32 V for an input and no series resistor is required. A heat sink with the appropriate thermal grease is. They have to be triac or back to back SCR's.

Some offer to switch at zero current. It should be random.

Some require series resistors.

Some SSR's are triacs, dual SCR's, SCR's (won;t work) or MOSFETS (won;t work).

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:06:47 AM UTC+8, Deane Williams wrote:
I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans. The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean


If you need the thermal fuse, please feel free to contact .
We are thermal fuse, MOV and thermal protected MOV manufacturer in China.

Any question, please do not hesitate to inform us.

Best Regards
Leo

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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

Deane Williams wrote in
:

I set up a thermostat in my garage that comes on at 80 degrees F. and
sends a 6 VDC battery voltage to control a 120 VAC solid state relay
which powers up the vent fan. The fans always quit within 2 months to
a year with no obvious defects. These are inexpensive 20 inch box fans
with induction motors. I have tried several brands and styles of fans.
The latest was a Home Depot unit that only lasted 2 months.
Does anyone know of a reason why I can't run an induction motor
from a SS relay? What is killing the fans? I have taken two apart
and there is no smoke smell, no visible damage and if there is a
capacitor it tests OK.
Thanks for any ideas. I am going to switch over to a mechanical relay.

Dean



So you blew some fans. But what about the SSR? Is it suited for diving
these motors? Some properties are as important as properties of a
mechanical relay and even with the right specs it may be defective.

Then, what about the signal diving the SSR? If it comes from a mechanical
switch, the contactbounce can damage or destroy the SSR which in turn can
blow the motor(s). SSRs like to be driven by clean signals and tend to be
much more unforgiving them their mechanical couterparts.

petrus bitbyter


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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

M Philbrook wrote:

" The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors? "


The OP has no so far bothered to open a fan a check the motor wiring for
continuity.


Yes he did, There is no continuity..



** ".. from the power plug ... ".

Box fans typically have timers, 3 way speed controls and tilt switches, any of which could be the real problem.


Which means it's been operating hot!



** Not likely with perfectly free bearing and no damage.


..... Phil
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Default Solid State relay kills induction motor fans

On 07/31/2015 7:42 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
M Philbrook wrote:

" The motor still spins easily. There is no DC continuity from the power plug but I beleive this is normal for induction motors?"


The OP has no so far bothered to open a fan a check the motor wiring for
continuity.


Yes he did, There is no continuity..



** ".. from the power plug ... ".

Box fans typically have timers, 3 way speed controls and tilt switches, any of which could be the real problem.


Which means it's been operating hot!



** Not likely with perfectly free bearing and no damage.


..... Phil


Hi Phil,

I don't think anyone read my quote (July 29) from a SSR (Omron)
manufacturers' FAQ PDF about using non-motor rated SSRs with induction
motors. As they said, as long as the SSR has sufficient rating to handle
the start up current (etc.) there will be no problems for the SSR.

The only thing folks haven't considered is a voltage surge - that could
take out the fan without harming the SSR. The wiring may have problems
where the neutral fails in a sub-box leading to 240VAC going to a motor
designed for 120 - the motor would not last long, yet wouldn't give
obvious signs of failure as the internal overheat fuse would open
quickly...

I have no other ideas unless he isn't giving the house elves enough food
and clothing.

John :-#(#

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