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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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"Y1" component designation?
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"Y1" component designation?
it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz
Tom Woodrow www.dacworks.com DaveC wrote: Printed on this circuit board next to a component is "Y1". It looks like a small tantalum cap (yellow, shiny [epoxy?], "radial" leads [side-by-side]). Printed on the side of it is a logo (can't make it out) and: 3.58U I don't remember seeing a "Y" designation before. What is it? Thanks, |
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"Y1" component designation?
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:28:13 -0700, Tom Woodrow wrote
(in message xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03): it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz Thanks. Is 3.58 MHz common? It looks familiar, like a common TV oscillator frequency, IIRC. Should be able to easily find a replacement? -- Dave C. |
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"Y1" component designation?
DaveC wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:28:13 -0700, Tom Woodrow wrote (in message xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03): it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz Thanks. Is 3.58 MHz common? It looks familiar, like a common TV oscillator frequency, IIRC. Should be able to easily find a replacement? It's the color burst reference (at least for NTSC, I don't know about PAL). Every TV has one. -- +--------------------------------+----------------------------------+ | George H. Patrick, III | Resources for PCB Designers on | | | the Web - The Designer's Den | | | http://www.pcb-designer.com | +--------------------------------+----------------------------------+ | Take what you like and leave the rest... My opinion ONLY. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
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"Y1" component designation?
"Andrew Rossmann" bravely wrote to "All" (16 Aug 03 07:52:40)
--- on the topic of " "Y1" component designation?" I don't thing the Y prefix is for a crystal. Like was stated I thought it was for a resonnant filter, i.e ceramic or other type. These tend to have 3 legs instead of a crystal's 2. These resonnators are often used to replace a tuned coil because they are a lot smaller, have a high Q, and can be more accurate without requiring any tuning adjustment. AR From: Andrew Rossmann AR In article xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03, AR says... it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz AR This makes me wonder: Where did some of these letter designations AR come from? Why are most IC's labeled U1, U2, etc..? I'm guessing Y is AR from crYstal? How about L (or sometimes E) for inductors? Q for AR transistors? AR -- AR If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! AR All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the AR law!! AR http://home.att.net/~andyross .... Dunno if we'll get that past the CSA und UL 'owever. |
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"Y1" component designation?
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:15:02 -0700, Asimov wrote
(in message ): "Andrew Rossmann" bravely wrote to "All" (16 Aug 03 07:52:40) --- on the topic of " "Y1" component designation?" I don't thing the Y prefix is for a crystal. Like was stated I thought it was for a resonnant filter, i.e ceramic or other type. These tend to have 3 legs instead of a crystal's 2. These resonnators are often used to replace a tuned coil because they are a lot smaller, have a high Q, and can be more accurate without requiring any tuning adjustment. Now I (OP) am confused. It's not a crystal. I thought a ceramic resonator has only 2 leads, while a filter has more(?) But you say (I think you did...) that it is a filter. Can you clarify a little? -- Dave C. |
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For example, this xtal...
Jameco has a low-profile xtal that is compatible with some Motorola
microprocessors, or so this page says: http://www.jameco.com/cgi- bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/jameco/searchResult.d2w/report?sort=BPA&search=137816 cd Can I replace a ceramic resonator with this xtal? Do I need to add anything else to the circuit? Thanks, -- Dave C. |
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"Y1" component designation?
DaveC ) writes:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:15:02 -0700, Asimov wrote (in message ): "Andrew Rossmann" bravely wrote to "All" (16 Aug 03 07:52:40) --- on the topic of " "Y1" component designation?" I don't thing the Y prefix is for a crystal. Like was stated I thought it was for a resonnant filter, i.e ceramic or other type. These tend to have 3 legs instead of a crystal's 2. These resonnators are often used to replace a tuned coil because they are a lot smaller, have a high Q, and can be more accurate without requiring any tuning adjustment. Now I (OP) am confused. It's not a crystal. I thought a ceramic resonator has only 2 leads, while a filter has more(?) But you say (I think you did...) that it is a filter. Can you clarify a little? I'm pretty sure I've seen Y1 to denote crystals, but for the life of me I can't be certain. Of course! If nowhere else, the ARRL used Y1 to denote a crystal. Bill Orr's Radio Handbook used the same prefix. Now, I'm not sure the circuit board designator would differentiate between a crystal and a ceramic resonator. But since I just scrapped a bunch of boards last week, I don't have anything handy to check. So I think a manufacturer might use X or Y for the crystal, but whatever they used, they'd use it for ceramic resonators. Now for the issue of "filter". A lot of these oscillators use a pair of capacitors from each side of the crystal (or ceramic resonator) to ground: ------|Y1|--------- | | C1 C2 |________| ground Not all oscillators, just the type you often see in digital equipment. You'd need them whether Y1 was a crystal or a ceramic resonator. Now, since that's the case, and ceramic resonators can include them, you can get ceramic resonators with those two capacitors built in. I would not call it a filter, but it would have three leads (the middle one being ground). If you put one of those in where the capacitors were already in place, you might not get good oscillation. There are of course little ceramic things with three leads that are indeed filters, as in IF filters. You can use those in oscillators, I've seen circuits that sort of amount to novelty, but they are not the same thing as the ceramic filters with the built in capacitors. Now, if I remember your original post, it sure sounds like a ceramic resonator. I'd say they are interchangeable with crystals (or vice versa), given the issue of those external capacitors. If the circuit expects a resonator with the capacitors, the crystal will require external capacitors (because they will not be built in). Ceramic resonators are cheaper to manufacture than crystals, and not as good in performance as crystals. But for many applications, the ceramic resonator is fine. Putting a crystal should be fine, though the reverse situation might not be suitable (depending on the specific application). There might be a few places where the design requires the ceramic resonator, because I gather they can be varied in frequency by changing load capacitors, more than the average crystal. But that would be a specific exception. If the thing has two leads only, then the issue of the extra capacitors doesn't exist. Pull a crystal of the correct frequency out of something, and there you go. Michael |
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"Y1" component designation?
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:36:35 -0700, Michael Black wrote
(in message ): Now, if I remember your original post, it sure sounds like a ceramic resonator. I'd say they are interchangeable with crystals (or vice versa), given the issue of those external capacitors. There are no caps in this oscillator circuit. The resonator has a 33 ohm (or 22; I can't tell if those are red or orange stripes) resistor connecting each of its 2 pins to ground. One end of the resonator also connects directly to a pin of the microcontroller. The other end connects via a 1M ohm resistor to another pin of the microcontroller. Given this circuit, can I replace the resonator with a crystal? Such as: http://www.jameco.com/cgi- bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/jameco/searchResult.d2w/report?sort=BPA&search=137816 cd Thanks, -- Dave C. |
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"Y1" component designation?
DaveC
There are no caps in this oscillator circuit. The resonator has a 33 ohm (or 22; I can't tell if those are red or orange stripes) resistor connecting each of its 2 pins to ground. That really really really sounds like 33 pF caps to me. Are those "resistors" the same color as the other resistors on the PCB? -- All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb |
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"Y1" component designation?
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:52:40 -0500, Andrew Rossmann
wrote: In article xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03, says... it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz This makes me wonder: Where did some of these letter designations come from? Why are most IC's labeled U1, U2, etc..? I'm guessing Y is from crYstal? How about L (or sometimes E) for inductors? Q for transistors? There was, probably still is, a MIL spec that defines standard reference designators. It's mostly familiar, with some quaint usages, such as D for dynamotor, DS for lamp, and CR (crystal rectifier) for diode. I think there's an ANSI standard, too. Nowadays, everybody seems to make up their own weird designators, like CON for connector, TR for transistor, and IC for, well, an IC. Anybody got horrible examples? John |
#13
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"Y1" component designation?
ok 3.58 megacycles
Theo wrote: 3.58MHz actually, mHz = milliHertz, stupid boy! "Tom Woodrow" wrote in message news:xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03... it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz Tom Woodrow www.dacworks.com DaveC wrote: Printed on this circuit board next to a component is "Y1". It looks like a small tantalum cap (yellow, shiny [epoxy?], "radial" leads [side-by-side]). Printed on the side of it is a logo (can't make it out) and: 3.58U I don't remember seeing a "Y" designation before. What is it? Thanks, |
#14
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"Y1" component designation?
Tom Woodrow ) writes:
ok 3.58 megacycles Actually, since this is about being picky, that too would be incorrect. What you must mean to say is "3.58 megacycles per second". Without the additional bit, it technically means nothing, because it does not specify the period during which all those cycles are counted. When Megahertz were introduced, it was defined as including the "per second" bit, making it unnecessary to spell it out. Michael Theo wrote: 3.58MHz actually, mHz = milliHertz, stupid boy! "Tom Woodrow" wrote in message news:xpi%a.153222$Ho3.18533@sccrnsc03... it is a crystal or ceramic resenator, possibly 3.58mHz Tom Woodrow www.dacworks.com DaveC wrote: Printed on this circuit board next to a component is "Y1". It looks like a small tantalum cap (yellow, shiny [epoxy?], "radial" leads [side-by-side]). Printed on the side of it is a logo (can't make it out) and: 3.58U I don't remember seeing a "Y" designation before. What is it? Thanks, |
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"Y1" component designation?
Asimov wrote:
I just scrapped an IBM aptiva board and wouldn't you know it the crystals are labelled with the "Y" prefix! BUT!!! A scrapped cell phone I opened here uses the "X" prefix for crystals!!! Thanks a lot! I hope you're all confused now... And then there's K vs. RY for relays... U vs. IC for integrated circuits... A ceramic resonnator tends to have 3 pins though some only have 2. I could be wrong, but I was led to believe that resonators have two, and ceramic filters have three. -- All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb |
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"Y1" component designation?
"Clifton T. Sharp Jr." bravely wrote to "All" (17 Aug 03 10:18:28)
--- on the topic of " "Y1" component designation?" CTSJ From: "Clifton T. Sharp Jr." CTSJ Asimov wrote: A ceramic resonnator tends to have 3 pins though some only have 2. CTSJ I could be wrong, but I was led to believe that resonators have two, CTSJ and ceramic filters have three. Thanks, you are right there, I mixed the 2 a bit, though I think the main difference between them is that a ceramic filter simply gets an extra pin attached to it. I experimented with this and found a filter will work as a resonnator if the middle pin is just left floating. However, I don't recall if the design frequency was affected. Does it? Asimov ****** .... I worked hard to attach the electrodes to it. |
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"Y1" component designation?
DaveC:
There are no caps in this oscillator circuit. The resonator has a 33 ohm (or 22; I can't tell if those are red or orange stripes) resistor connecting each of its 2 pins to ground. Clifton T. Sharp Jr.: That really really really sounds like 33 pF caps to me. Are those "resistors" the same color as the other resistors on the PCB? No, they're bright green. Are they caps? I presumed because they're the same size as a 1/4 watt resistor and they use the resistor color code that they are resistors. Is this "duck" not a duck? Thanks, -- Dave C. |
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"Y1" component designation?
DaveC ) writes:
DaveC: There are no caps in this oscillator circuit. The resonator has a 33 ohm (or 22; I can't tell if those are red or orange stripes) resistor connecting each of its 2 pins to ground. Clifton T. Sharp Jr.: That really really really sounds like 33 pF caps to me. Are those "resistors" the same color as the other resistors on the PCB? No, they're bright green. Are they caps? I presumed because they're the same size as a 1/4 watt resistor and they use the resistor color code that they are resistors. Is this "duck" not a duck? Thanks, -- Dave C. I'm with Clifton. It doesn't quite make sense if they are resistors, and the very more so if they were really 22 or 33 ohm resistors. That's a pretty big load on the crystal. Take an ohmmeter and measure them. Likely you won't see a low resistance across them. Michael |
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"Y1" component designation?
Dave C:
If I have a difficult time finding a replacement ceramic resonator, can I replace it in this circuit with a crystal? Are they directly compatible? Sverre Holm: The ceramic resonators are usually cheaper than crystals, see eg. http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?hand...roductid= 311 096&e_categoryid=28&e_pcodeid=6484 $0.45, so there is no need to try to replace it [with a crystal]. --- I'm having a tough time finding a ceramic resonator locally. I know I can find one on-line and mail-order. But I want to fix this *now*. Can I replace a resonator *directly* with a crystal? Any modifications needed to the circuit? Thanks, -- Dave C. |
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"Y1" component designation?
Asimov wrote:
Thanks, you are right there, I mixed the 2 a bit, though I think the main difference between them is that a ceramic filter simply gets an extra pin attached to it. I experimented with this and found a filter will work as a resonnator if the middle pin is just left floating. However, I don't recall if the design frequency was affected. Does it? Beware the faulty memory, but if I recall right a filter can have more than one resonator element. I suspect the caps might have a small effect (there's a cap from each resonator lead to the common IIRC) but it shouldn't throw things off wildly; if you were going for that much precision you'd have used crystals. -- All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb |
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"Y1" component designation?
Somewhere around the time of 08/16/2003 17:15, the world stopped and
listened as Asimov spoke these words of wisdom...: "Andrew Rossmann" bravely wrote to "All" (16 Aug 03 07:52:40) --- on the topic of " "Y1" component designation?" I don't thing the Y prefix is for a crystal. Like was stated I thought it was for a resonnant filter, i.e ceramic or other type. These tend to have 3 legs instead of a crystal's 2. I have an old 1970 ARRL Handbook and it has crystals listed as Y. I also have a 2002 handbook and it has crystals and ceramic resonators listed as Y. To me, anything with a Y designation is a resonant component that is either a crystal or ceramic resonator. -- Daniel Rudy Remove nospam, invalid, and 0123456789 to reply. |
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