new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Bill Janssen wrote:

Alan Horowitz wrote:


any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?


Check the spec.'s on coin size Mercury cells. As I remember a new
one has a well defined voltage.

Mercury cells cannot be sold because of the mercury in them. So the
battery could not be purchased, as the OP requested.



Good luck.
Bill K7NOM



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new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Lizard Blizzard wrote in
:

Bill Janssen wrote:

Alan Horowitz wrote:


any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?


Check the spec.'s on coin size Mercury cells. As I remember a new
one has a well defined voltage.

Mercury cells cannot be sold because of the mercury in them. So the
battery could not be purchased, as the OP requested.



Good luck.
Bill K7NOM




Perhaps new silver oxide cells would suffice.
1.55V IIRC.
Better to use a band-gap reference diode,they come in 100 PPM accuracies.

--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Lizard Blizzard wrote:

Bill Janssen wrote:

Alan Horowitz wrote:


any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?


Check the spec.'s on coin size Mercury cells. As I remember a new
one has a well defined voltage.

Mercury cells cannot be sold because of the mercury in them. So the
battery could not be purchased, as the OP requested.


Oh, I wasn't aware that Mecury cells were no longer available.



Good luck.
Bill K7NOM

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

You can still get them at some camera stores -- they're imported
from Poland.

Bill Janssen wrote:

Oh, I wasn't aware that Mecury cells were no longer available.

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.
The mercury cells made reasonable inexpensive secondary standards, and
the voltage known to 4 digits (if i remember correctly) and could be
calibrated and used as transfer standards to 5 digits (if i remember
correctly).
It is my guess that the Lithium cells may be the best of the various
voltage sources, for that purpose.
However, one might do better using a 1.25V band-gap reference driven
from a Lithium cell.
There now seems to be an even better reference using a new technology;
see:
http://www.xicor.com/voltage_family.php

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

In article ,
mentioned...
You can still get them at some camera stores -- they're imported
from Poland.

Probably illegal to do that. There was a thread recently here on
someone who wanted to convert their camera to use alkaline cells to
replace the mercury cells which are no longer available.

Bill Janssen wrote:

Oh, I wasn't aware that Mecury cells were no longer available.


--
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new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

In article ,
mentioned...
Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-


I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.

When I was a youngster I got a VTVM that had instructions that had you
calibrate the DC range by measuring a fresh dry cell. Well, there
were no alkalines back then, everything was carbon-zinc.

[snip]

--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/e...s/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 at hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@ u@e@n@t@@

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

"Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'" wrote:

In article ,
mentioned...
Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-


I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.

When I was a youngster I got a VTVM that had instructions that had you
calibrate the DC range by measuring a fresh dry cell. Well, there
were no alkalines back then, everything was carbon-zinc.

[snip]

Heath did that with a voltmeter kit that I put together. However, as I recall,
they
provided the D cell and the voltage that they measured in their lab. The
voltage
was only correct for that particular cell.

Bill K7NOM

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Well, Dynaco tube amps used batteries as a reference in theiur biasing.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/AdamVon/dynaresto.html


In article , says...

Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.
The mercury cells made reasonable inexpensive secondary standards, and
the voltage known to 4 digits (if i remember correctly) and could be
calibrated and used as transfer standards to 5 digits (if i remember
correctly).
It is my guess that the Lithium cells may be the best of the various
voltage sources, for that purpose.
However, one might do better using a 1.25V band-gap reference driven
from a Lithium cell.
There now seems to be an even better reference using a new technology;
see:
http://www.xicor.com/voltage_family.php

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...
Heath did that with a voltmeter kit that I put together. However, as I
recall,
they provided the D cell and the voltage that they measured in their lab.
The
voltage was only correct for that particular cell.

.... and possibly the same temperature as their lab.

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

"Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'" wrote:

In article ,
mentioned...
Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-


I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.

When I was a youngster I got a VTVM that had instructions that had you
calibrate the DC range by measuring a fresh dry cell. Well, there
were no alkalines back then, everything was carbon-zinc.

[snip]



That is *not* the same as attempting to use LeClanche cells as a
secondary ro tertiary standard.
Yes, Heathkit (and maybe Knight) VTVM kit instructions recommended the
use of a fresh dry cell for calibration at 1.55V; that was good enough
for the 3% accuracy (at best) of the meters.

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Jim Adney wrote:

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:16:03 -0700 Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
wrote:

In article ,
mentioned...

Jim Adney wrote:

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.

When I was a youngster I got a VTVM that had instructions that had you
calibrate the DC range by measuring a fresh dry cell. Well, there
were no alkalines back then, everything was carbon-zinc.

Yes, I remember that one, but the ones I was thinking about were some
of the 60s vacuum tube stereos where you were to set the bias by
comparing the 1.56V from a fresh carbon-zinc D-cell to the voltage
drop across the cathode resistor. I believe both Eico and Dynaco did
this.

Yes, it probably wasn't much of a "standard," but it was close enough,
and probably within 1%, which was better than almost anything else in
those days.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Cannot get 1% accuracy with (at best) 5% cathode resistors.....

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

Don wrote:

Well, Dynaco tube amps used batteries as a reference in theiur biasing.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/AdamVon/dynaresto.html

In article , says...

Jim Adney wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 13:48:19 -0700 (Alan Horowitz)
wrote:

any of these new-fangled battery chemistries such that, buying an
average one off the shelf, it has a voltage that's within 1% of it's
nominal?

I seem to recall fresh ordinary carbon-zinc batteries being used as
"standards" in an earlier era. I think the voltage was supposed to be
1.56V, but that's a very old memory and could be off a bit.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I have never heard of using carbon-zinc (Leclanche) cells for any kind
of reference, and i have been an electronic technician for over 50
years.
The mercury cells made reasonable inexpensive secondary standards, and
the voltage known to 4 digits (if i remember correctly) and could be
calibrated and used as transfer standards to 5 digits (if i remember
correctly).
It is my guess that the Lithium cells may be the best of the various
voltage sources, for that purpose.
However, one might do better using a 1.25V band-gap reference driven
from a Lithium cell.
There now seems to be an even better reference using a new technology;
see:
http://www.xicor.com/voltage_family.php

Nope; not as a reference - used for bias.

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:20:51 GMT Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Adney wrote:

Yes, it probably wasn't much of a "standard," but it was close enough,
and probably within 1%, which was better than almost anything else in
those days.

Cannot get 1% accuracy with (at best) 5% cathode resistors.....

For Dynaco, at least, I believe they used special 1% resistors here.
But I have to agree that even that would not assure 1% precision in
the idle current setting.

OTOH, I'm sure it was good enough for what they needed.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:18:41 GMT Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Adney wrote:

Now I've got an old Eppley standard cell sitting across the room, and
those could be held to a microvolt, but they DID age, and they DID
have a temp dependence. None of that affected the first 4 digits,
however. Those last 3 digits are a LOT tougher. ;-)

Ahhhh..... you speak of differences of primary and secondary
standards.

In the case of the battery I was just thinking of this as a useful
reference, especially since the OP didn't specify any particular
tolerance.

The Eppley cell is probably a secondary standard at best. In this
context, I don't think I would be willing to call the carbon-zinc cell
even a tertiary standard.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:35:44 -0700 Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
wrote:

In article 5wg%a.152046$o%2.65030@sccrnsc02,
mentioned...

Well, Dynaco tube amps used batteries as a reference in theiur biasing.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/AdamVon/dynaresto.html

Well, so did radar sets, they used the old Burgess batteries as 'C'
batteries.

I dont' think the Dynaco reference was made quite clear enough for
you. There was no battery in the device; the just told you to adjust
the tube bias until the voltage drop across the precision cathode
resistor was equal to that across a fresh carbon-zinc cell.

Thus it was actually used as a reference to remove the uncertainty in
the calibration of the voltmeter that the average kit builder might
have in those days.

I've never seen one, but grid bias cells are often mentioned in the
antique radio newsgroup. They must have been common at one time, maybe
the 30s and 40s.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?
 

There are no longer any batteries on the market with a
native voltage stable enough to use as a reference.

Yep, istr that there was one type of mercury battery which could indeed be
used as a reference cell, but nowadays
they cannot be made because of disposal problems. Perhaps they could be made
under the stipulation that they be made available only to technicians or supply
houses, so that the general population would not have ready access, and thereby
not contribute much to pollution
(ok, so that's a pipe dream... ;-) ) -ph

new-age batteries as field-expedient voltage references?