Hello all,

Just a warning that I was about to use a "2N5401" that is marked as
follows:

2N
5401
CH13

and on the back, molded in a circle on the rear is K1 or K7 - the ones
with the K7 have the lettering slightly rotated.

On these devices, the middle pin is the COLLECTOR not the Base, as a
genuine 2N5401 would be. These devices are on a paper tape strip of 20
I bought, and unfortunately I did not keep them in the original package,
so I don't recall where they came from.

Just thought I'd mention it here, as it could cause a lot of grief when
repairing something. I did not bother to curve trace these to see if
they otherwise meet spec, as I plan to trash them. I've since ordered
some proper 2N5401's from Digikey.

Regards, and Happy New Year
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics

On 29/12/2014 17:30, Tim Schwartz wrote:
Hello all,

Just a warning that I was about to use a "2N5401" that is marked as
follows:

2N
5401
CH13

and on the back, molded in a circle on the rear is K1 or K7 - the ones
with the K7 have the lettering slightly rotated.

On these devices, the middle pin is the COLLECTOR not the Base, as
a genuine 2N5401 would be. These devices are on a paper tape strip of
20 I bought, and unfortunately I did not keep them in the original
package, so I don't recall where they came from.

Just thought I'd mention it here, as it could cause a lot of grief
when repairing something. I did not bother to curve trace these to see
if they otherwise meet spec, as I plan to trash them. I've since
ordered some proper 2N5401's from Digikey.

Regards, and Happy New Year
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics

Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense

In article , N_Cook wrote:

Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense

Since they're a part which is listed as "obsolete" or "end of life" by
most manufacturers, there still may be a bit of "boutique" demand from
some customers who either have to use the same part number (e.g. for
servicing) or re-quality their design.

I sorta suspect that once a counterfeiter has a parts-marking line set
up, it's no big deal for them to just re-mark a few thousand of
whatever unlabeled overrun transistors they've got their hands on,
with every conceivable part number, and then just list them as
"available" in their catalogs. The incremental cost of ginning up
fakes for any given part number would be next to zero.

Nutcase Kook


Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense


** Fake semiconductors are almost always created by removing the old markings and adding new ones that dramatically increase the value of the part.

It relies on the fact that semiconductor packages are all standardised with only the markings revealing who made it and what chip is inside.

So there is no similarity with fake bank notes, shoes or handbags.

I have seen only one example of a fake transistors that were specially manufactured: steel TO3 paks labelled as being Motorola MJ15003/4 from "MEX1C0" (no kidding) while inside were two chips attached directly to the steel base and wired in parallel.

I once purchased some fake BC639/640 transistors in TO92 pak - performance tested much the same as BC548/549 parts.

Neither of the above were usable in place of the real thing.

OTOH I have bought fake electros that were "made": 22uF,450V NipponChemicon caps were faked by fitting used 22uF, 400V radial electros inside an axial lead can with a shrink plastic label that was faked. Ingenious.



..... Phil

On 12/29/2014 2:24 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article , N_Cook wrote:

Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense

Since they're a part which is listed as "obsolete" or "end of life" by
most manufacturers, there still may be a bit of "boutique" demand from
some customers who either have to use the same part number (e.g. for
servicing) or re-quality their design.

I sorta suspect that once a counterfeiter has a parts-marking line set
up, it's no big deal for them to just re-mark a few thousand of
whatever unlabeled overrun transistors they've got their hands on,
with every conceivable part number, and then just list them as
"available" in their catalogs. The incremental cost of ginning up
fakes for any given part number would be next to zero.



Dave,

I suspect you are correct. There is someone somewhere who will take
scrap/surplus/defective parts and put whatever number on it that they
think they can sell.

Take the Japanese marking system of transistors (2SA,B,C,D) each number
is unique to a manufacturer. So, if Sony wants to make a transistor
that is identical to an NEC device, it will still get its own number.
This is different from JEDEC devices where many manufacturers made the
2N3055 for example. They also don't generally revise parts. So while
On-Semi relabeled the MJ15003 to a MJ15003G when the part went RoHs,
Toshiba replaced the 2SC3281 with the 2SC5200. So, any 2SC3281's still
on the market are fakes or surplus, because Toshiba doesn't make them
any more.

Regards,
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics

Tim Schwartz wrote:

There is someone somewhere who will take
scrap/surplus/defective parts and put whatever number on it that they
think they can sell.

** Absolutely - a bunch of fakers on Florida called "TIC" for Transistor Instrument Company bought up heaps of obsolete TO3 pak devices and labelled them with whatever number the customer ordered.

Under the number "MJ15003" I saw 400V, 5A switching transistors and even power Darlingtons.


Take the Japanese marking system of transistors (2SA,B,C,D) each number
is unique to a manufacturer. So, if Sony wants to make a transistor
that is identical to an NEC device, it will still get its own number.
This is different from JEDEC devices where many manufacturers made the
2N3055 for example. They also don't generally revise parts. So while
On-Semi relabeled the MJ15003 to a MJ15003G when the part went RoHs,
Toshiba replaced the 2SC3281 with the 2SC5200. So, any 2SC3281's still
on the market are fakes or surplus, because Toshiba doesn't make them
any more.

** You can bet any being offered by HK dealers on the net are fakes.

FYI: Motorola and ON played dirty sometimes too.

There was still a demand for old numbers like MJ802/4502 and 2N3773 devices for repair work etc - so Motorola listed them in their catalogues. They were NOT the original types but current production MJ15003/4s relabelled by them.
They typically sold for double the price of MJ15003/4s.

They can legally do this, as MJxxxx numbers are proprietary to Motorola and ON.

Also, along with MJ15003/4s, types like MJ15024/25 have gone through many die changes and current production examples are very different to ones made 10 or 20 years ago. IOW they do not match when mixed in parallel groups.



..... Phil

Tim Schwartz wrote:
On 12/29/2014 2:24 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article , N_Cook wrote:

Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense

Since they're a part which is listed as "obsolete" or "end of life" by
most manufacturers, there still may be a bit of "boutique" demand from
some customers who either have to use the same part number (e.g. for
servicing) or re-quality their design.

I sorta suspect that once a counterfeiter has a parts-marking line set
up, it's no big deal for them to just re-mark a few thousand of
whatever unlabeled overrun transistors they've got their hands on,
with every conceivable part number, and then just list them as
"available" in their catalogs. The incremental cost of ginning up
fakes for any given part number would be next to zero.



Dave,

I suspect you are correct. There is someone somewhere who will take
scrap/surplus/defective parts and put whatever number on it that they
think they can sell.

Take the Japanese marking system of transistors (2SA,B,C,D) each number
is unique to a manufacturer. So, if Sony wants to make a transistor
that is identical to an NEC device, it will still get its own number.
This is different from JEDEC devices where many manufacturers made the
2N3055 for example. They also don't generally revise parts. So while

didn't know this. interesting.

On 30/12/2014 01:23, Tim Schwartz wrote:
On 12/29/2014 2:24 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article , N_Cook
wrote:

Why would anyone bother faking such tiddlers? I've never heard of anyone
gorging 1 cent or 1 penny coins, equally it just makes no sense

Since they're a part which is listed as "obsolete" or "end of life" by
most manufacturers, there still may be a bit of "boutique" demand from
some customers who either have to use the same part number (e.g. for
servicing) or re-quality their design.

I sorta suspect that once a counterfeiter has a parts-marking line set
up, it's no big deal for them to just re-mark a few thousand of
whatever unlabeled overrun transistors they've got their hands on,
with every conceivable part number, and then just list them as
"available" in their catalogs. The incremental cost of ginning up
fakes for any given part number would be next to zero.



Dave,

I suspect you are correct. There is someone somewhere who will
take scrap/surplus/defective parts and put whatever number on it that
they think they can sell.

Take the Japanese marking system of transistors (2SA,B,C,D) each
number is unique to a manufacturer. So, if Sony wants to make a
transistor that is identical to an NEC device, it will still get its own
number. This is different from JEDEC devices where many manufacturers
made the 2N3055 for example. They also don't generally revise parts. So
while On-Semi relabeled the MJ15003 to a MJ15003G when the part went
RoHs, Toshiba replaced the 2SC3281 with the 2SC5200. So, any 2SC3281's
still on the market are fakes or surplus, because Toshiba doesn't make
them any more.

Regards,
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics


I'm aware from a medical devices manufacturer of fraudulent RoHS but
otherwise genuine componenents being supplied with false documentation
into RoHS exempt supply trains for RoHS derogated industries like
medical , nuclear , military and aerospace. Good money in that mark-up
just for printing off false documentation. Its not that simple testing
for the absence/presence of elemental/alloyed lead.

"Tim Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

Just a warning that I was about to use a "2N5401" that is marked as
follows:

2N
5401
CH13

and on the back, molded in a circle on the rear is K1 or K7 - the ones
with the K7 have the lettering slightly rotated.

On these devices, the middle pin is the COLLECTOR not the Base, as a
genuine 2N5401 would be. These devices are on a paper tape strip of 20 I
bought, and unfortunately I did not keep them in the original package, so
I don't recall where they came from.

Just thought I'd mention it here, as it could cause a lot of grief when
repairing something. I did not bother to curve trace these to see if they
otherwise meet spec, as I plan to trash them. I've since ordered some
proper 2N5401's from Digikey.

Regards, and Happy New Year
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics



Tim,

The 2N5401's used by Yamaha on most models the past six or more years, are
not fake and are based E-C-B like the Japanese signal transistors. Don't
know why, and I don't know why they used American designation. I mentioned
it to our tech rep and he kinda snickered.

But they aren't fake. For example, Q1071 shown on page 125 of the RX-V773
service manual, is a "2N5401C" . I picked this manual almost at random, but
many Yamaha models use these.

Q1069 and Q1070 are '2N5551C" same ECB basing.


Mark Z.

On 30/12/2014 11:28, Mark Zacharias wrote:
"Tim Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

Just a warning that I was about to use a "2N5401" that is marked as
follows:

2N
5401
CH13

and on the back, molded in a circle on the rear is K1 or K7 - the ones
with the K7 have the lettering slightly rotated.

On these devices, the middle pin is the COLLECTOR not the Base, as a
genuine 2N5401 would be. These devices are on a paper tape strip of
20 I bought, and unfortunately I did not keep them in the original
package, so I don't recall where they came from.

Just thought I'd mention it here, as it could cause a lot of grief
when repairing something. I did not bother to curve trace these to
see if they otherwise meet spec, as I plan to trash them. I've since
ordered some proper 2N5401's from Digikey.

Regards, and Happy New Year
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics



Tim,

The 2N5401's used by Yamaha on most models the past six or more years,
are not fake and are based E-C-B like the Japanese signal transistors.
Don't know why, and I don't know why they used American designation. I
mentioned it to our tech rep and he kinda snickered.

But they aren't fake. For example, Q1071 shown on page 125 of the
RX-V773 service manual, is a "2N5401C" . I picked this manual almost at
random, but many Yamaha models use these.

Q1069 and Q1070 are '2N5551C" same ECB basing.


Mark Z.

So for more general application, not just 2N5401.
From the OP device marked
2N
5401
CH13
so could the suffix be C and then perhaps H fortnight of year 2013 as a
datecode?
and a genuine 2N5401C , C designating the pinning varient?

I agree. If you are going to really counterfeit, why counterfeit pennies when you can do twenty dollar bills. I know soneone who did, but then they would up ion the pen. At least I got the priveledge of knowing someone who did federal time. (lol)