Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Mark
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

I find it hard to believe that a zapper would take out a
car alarm. The energy from the ignition and sparkplugs
would produce as much energy. Have you tested a
zapper to see if that's really what's happening. I would
think that the alarm was tested for ESD. Please Comment?


"DaveC" wrote in message
al.net...
I am trying to fix a car alarm/remote locking unit. It seems that punks

are
putting personal protection "zappers" to the bumpers of cars and frying

the
receiver input.

The input is very simple: length of wire serves as antenna, connected to
input of wide bandwidth transistor driving tuned circuit.

Transistor is fried. How can I protect this from several thousand volts

(I'm
guessing here; what's the typical input from one of these zappers?)? Are
air-gap devices recommended?

Example p/n's would be appreciated.

Thanks,
--
Dave C




  #2   Report Post  
Ken Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

In article ,
Jerry G. wrote:
[.... neon lamp ...]
In your case you want to use it as a hard voltage clamp. Put a resistor
of about 27 to 33 ohms in series with the lamp, to allow isolation from
its capacitive characteristics. The stray capacitance of the lamp is
about 3 to 5 pF.


I disagree with adding the resistor. Just find a way to live with the
extra 5pF. The resistor in series with it will cause losses. The 5pF
will cause a mistuning that may either be unimportant or easy to correct
for.

--
--
forging knowledge

  #4   Report Post  
Mike Berger
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

How do you think this would work? The tasers have two electrodes, with the
power passing from one to the other. It seems that it would be difficult to
press
one on a bumper and zap something without grounding the charge before it
hits anything electronic.

DaveC wrote:

I am trying to fix a car alarm/remote locking unit. It seems that punks are
putting personal protection "zappers" to the bumpers of cars and frying the
receiver input.


  #5   Report Post  
Gym Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

Hell, put a zener diode into the gate of a Triac and use crowbar overvoltage
protection! When a high enough disturbance makes the zener conduct the triac
will short the whole thing right to ground/frame until the charge is gone
then release.


"Ken Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry G. wrote:
[.... neon lamp ...]
In your case you want to use it as a hard voltage clamp. Put a resistor
of about 27 to 33 ohms in series with the lamp, to allow isolation from
its capacitive characteristics. The stray capacitance of the lamp is
about 3 to 5 pF.


I disagree with adding the resistor. Just find a way to live with the
extra 5pF. The resistor in series with it will cause losses. The 5pF
will cause a mistuning that may either be unimportant or easy to correct
for.

--
--
forging knowledge





  #6   Report Post  
Sam Goldwasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

"Gym Bob" writes:

Hell, put a zener diode into the gate of a Triac and use crowbar overvoltage
protection! When a high enough disturbance makes the zener conduct the triac
will short the whole thing right to ground/frame until the charge is gone
then release.


But slow acting.....

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.

  #7   Report Post  
Gym Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

Not sure about the Triac but zeners are the fastest and the gate of the
Triac should only act like a diode until the whole thing turns on and backs
it up.

Zeners are usually used in parallel with MOV's for the speed, beating the
MOV, of course.

"Sam Goldwasser" wrote in message
...
"Gym Bob" writes:

Hell, put a zener diode into the gate of a Triac and use crowbar

overvoltage
protection! When a high enough disturbance makes the zener conduct the

triac
will short the whole thing right to ground/frame until the charge is

gone
then release.


But slow acting.....

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work.

To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.



  #8   Report Post  
Sam Goldwasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

"Gym Bob" writes:

Not sure about the Triac but zeners are the fastest and the gate of the
Triac should only act like a diode until the whole thing turns on and backs
it up.

Zeners are usually used in parallel with MOV's for the speed, beating the
MOV, of course.


Right. Triacs/SCRs are probably in the microsecond range. But the zener
should accept the initial surge, and possibly all of it!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.

  #9   Report Post  
Paul Burridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:48:29 -0700, DarkMatter
wrote:

Someone "zapping" your bumper is NOT going to affect any electronics
on your car. They would have to zap the PCB assembly directly.


This bumper business sound unlikely to me. But there's a prototype
device being tested by the police here that shoots a little
wire-guided cart under the wheels of any car that refuses to stop and
zaps the EMU by some form of EMP, thereby bringing it to a halt.

--

"I believe history will be kind to me, since I intend
to write it." - Winston Churchill
  #10   Report Post  
Mark Robinson
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

You should be able to put a parallel pair of low capacitance Silicon diodes
across the receiver input. since the receiver is looking for microvolts of
signal and not 600 millivolts. You also use an RF choke to ground. This
will provide a low dc impedance to ground and a high rf impedance at the
frequency of operation.


Mark

"Sam Goldwasser" wrote in message
...
"Gym Bob" writes:

Not sure about the Triac but zeners are the fastest and the gate of the
Triac should only act like a diode until the whole thing turns on and

backs
it up.

Zeners are usually used in parallel with MOV's for the speed, beating

the
MOV, of course.


Right. Triacs/SCRs are probably in the microsecond range. But the zener
should accept the initial surge, and possibly all of it!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work.

To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.





  #11   Report Post  
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

In article ,
mentioned...
You should be able to put a parallel pair of low capacitance Silicon diodes
across the receiver input. since the receiver is looking for microvolts of
signal and not 600 millivolts. You also use an RF choke to ground. This
will provide a low dc impedance to ground and a high rf impedance at the
frequency of operation.


I had a cheap scanner that used semi's on the input. The first
lightning bolt many miles away zapped them. Got out the soldering
iron and replaced. Same thing again, later. Pi$$ poor design.

Don't waste your time. Use an inductor that has nearly zero ohms DC
resistance, or your front end will suffer the same fate.

Mark

"Sam Goldwasser" wrote in message
...
"Gym Bob" writes:

Not sure about the Triac but zeners are the fastest and the gate of the
Triac should only act like a diode until the whole thing turns on and

backs
it up.

Zeners are usually used in parallel with MOV's for the speed, beating

the
MOV, of course.


Right. Triacs/SCRs are probably in the microsecond range. But the zener
should accept the initial surge, and possibly all of it!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page:
http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work.

To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.





--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@ h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/e...s/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 at hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@ u@e@n@t@@
  #12   Report Post  
Sam Goldwasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' writes:

I had a cheap scanner that used semi's on the input. The first
lightning bolt many miles away zapped them. Got out the soldering
iron and replaced. Same thing again, later. Pi$$ poor design.

Don't waste your time. Use an inductor that has nearly zero ohms DC
resistance, or your front end will suffer the same fate.


And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.

  #13   Report Post  
Paul Burridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

On 10 Aug 2003 09:41:48 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote:

And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.


Good point, Sam. So what's the definitive answer?
--

"I believe history will be kind to me, since I intend
to write it." - Winston Churchill
  #14   Report Post  
Roger Johansson
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

Paul Burridge wrote:

And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.


Good point, Sam. So what's the definitive answer?


Anti-parallell diodes are a good answer, but there has to be something
before it to limit the current.

Maybe an impedance-corrected pad, or a series resonant circuit, an
antenna transformer..

I have seen schemes for switching antennas for radio amateurs, between
different bands, between receiving and transmitting.. They give the
diodes a forward voltage to turn it on or a back voltage to turn it
off (low capacitance).

There has to be some useful tricks these radio amateurs use because
they don't seem to have problems with broken diodes.

It just needs some more consideration than just putting two diodes
directly at the input.



--
Roger J.
  #15   Report Post  
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

In article ,
mentioned...
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' writes:

I had a cheap scanner that used semi's on the input. The first
lightning bolt many miles away zapped them. Got out the soldering
iron and replaced. Same thing again, later. Pi$$ poor design.

Don't waste your time. Use an inductor that has nearly zero ohms DC
resistance, or your front end will suffer the same fate.


And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.


Well, the scanner has three front ends, UHF, and hi and low VHF. The
UHF and hi VHF have inductors, and use FETs, and they aren't damaged
by lightning. But they are coupled to the antenna coax with small 5
or 10 pF caps, so their inductors don't protect the lo VHF. The lo
VHF uses no inductor and a BJT, MPS-H10, and it burned out with every
lightning strike. That seems to me to indicate that the coils conduct
most of the fault current to ground. I suppose the coils do let some
of the high freqs thru, but not enough to do damage.

Hams do the same thing with their tried and true homebrew equipment.
They put some DC path to ground in the incoming coax. This also
conducts to ground AC current picked up by the antenna.


--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@ h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/e...s/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 at hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@ u@e@n@t@@


  #16   Report Post  
Paul Burridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:36:34 -0700, Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
wrote:

Hams do the same thing with their tried and true homebrew equipment.
They put some DC path to ground in the incoming coax. This also
conducts to ground AC current picked up by the antenna.


I think you mean the so-called "braid break."

--

"I believe history will be kind to me, since I intend
to write it." - Winston Churchill
  #17   Report Post  
Tom L
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:22:48 +0100, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On 10 Aug 2003 09:41:48 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote:

And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.


Good point, Sam. So what's the definitive answer?


1.5KE30CA (1500W 30V bidirectional Tranzorb).
Couple of bucks each.
General Semiconductor.
  #19   Report Post  
Gym Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

lasoo? ...hell, a net

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:07:22 +1200, Barry Lennox
wrote:

Gonna have a hellava job stopping my 59 beetle, not a transistor in
sight!


No problem, Barry. The cop would simply run after your bug with a
lassoo. :-)
--

"I believe history will be kind to me, since I intend
to write it." - Winston Churchill



  #21   Report Post  
Vermin
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 01:20:50 GMT, Active8
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:22:48 +0100, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On 10 Aug 2003 09:41:48 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote:

And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.

Good point, Sam. So what's the definitive answer?


1.5KE30CA (1500W 30V bidirectional Tranzorb).
Couple of bucks each.
General Semiconductor.

thanks. i've been thinking tranzorbs while reading all this and didn't
know who made 'em.

but those stun guns generate about 20kV. is the 30V spec above the
voltage they turn on at?

br,
mike


No.

That's the point.

The transorb will clamp the 20KV to about 30V (actual clamp voltage
depends upon the pulse rise time) protecting your circuit.

They have very low capacitance (10 to 15pF) and so should not affect
your RF.

Another option is a GDT (gas discharge tube), even lower capacitance
(only a couple of pF) and can be purchased in as low as 90V DC
clamping voltages.

See:

http://www.search.epcos.com/pls/prin...GRP=PG_S A_2E
  #22   Report Post  
Active8
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 01:20:50 GMT, Active8
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:22:48 +0100, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On 10 Aug 2003 09:41:48 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote:

And the inductor is used how? In series it will block the RF. In parallel,
it will still look like a high impedance for the fast rise time spike of
a zap.

Good point, Sam. So what's the definitive answer?

1.5KE30CA (1500W 30V bidirectional Tranzorb).
Couple of bucks each.
General Semiconductor.

thanks. i've been thinking tranzorbs while reading all this and didn't
know who made 'em.

but those stun guns generate about 20kV. is the 30V spec above the
voltage they turn on at?

br,
mike


No.


sorry, I meant "the above 30V spec", not the "30V spec above" :-)
i should have just left the "a" word out, but after a few days, it
appears my grammatical error elicited a response.

hey. those GDTs are used to protect CATV amp ins/outs. those amps aren't
cheap, so there must be something there. lower cost (?) and lower
capacitance.

mike

That's the point.

The transorb will clamp the 20KV to about 30V (actual clamp voltage
depends upon the pulse rise time) protecting your circuit.

They have very low capacitance (10 to 15pF) and so should not affect
your RF.

Another option is a GDT (gas discharge tube), even lower capacitance
(only a couple of pF) and can be purchased in as low as 90V DC
clamping voltages.

See:

http://www.search.epcos.com/pls/prin...GRP=PG_S A_2E

  #23   Report Post  
Michael A. Terrell
 
Posts: n/a
Default HV protection for receiver input?

Active8 wrote:

sorry, I meant "the above 30V spec", not the "30V spec above" :-)
i should have just left the "a" word out, but after a few days, it
appears my grammatical error elicited a response.

hey. those GDTs are used to protect CATV amp ins/outs. those amps aren't
cheap, so there must be something there. lower cost (?) and lower
capacitance.


The CATV systems I worked on required the gas discharge tubes to be
replaced as preventative maintenance, due to the tubes degrading
slightly with each activation.
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rust protection Tomas Wilhelmsson Metalworking 5 April 12th 04 10:49 PM
Surge protection? al UK diy 22 November 26th 03 02:14 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2023 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"