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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That
area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? |
#2
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. |
#3
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote:
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go |
#4
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. |
#5
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa |
#6
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa There are a few issues he 1. This is a piano, and piano players hit keys HARD. 2. The structure of the key contact strips is such that the shape of the moulding is the "sprung piston" that ensures both contacts land straight and accurately onto the PCB so the velocity of the key can be accurately measured. You cannot cut these things without destroying that keys piston and the ones around it that rely on their neighbours to keep its structure shape intact. 3. Mending these things with paint etc might work for a day or so, then your customer will think you are a Klutz for mending it instead of replacing it and charging money for labour instead of a cheap new part. 4. You can buy them from the manufacturers for a few pounds. 5. Give number 4, why on earth would you consider 2 or 3 unless the part was no longer available? Gareth. |
#7
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa There are a few issues he 1. This is a piano, and piano players hit keys HARD. 2. The structure of the key contact strips is such that the shape of the moulding is the "sprung piston" that ensures both contacts land straight and accurately onto the PCB so the velocity of the key can be accurately measured. You cannot cut these things without destroying that keys piston and the ones around it that rely on their neighbours to keep its structure shape intact. 3. Mending these things with paint etc might work for a day or so, then your customer will think you are a Klutz for mending it instead of replacing it and charging money for labour instead of a cheap new part. 4. You can buy them from the manufacturers for a few pounds. 5. Give number 4, why on earth would you consider 2 or 3 unless the part was no longer available? Gareth. *We* know that, Gareth ... Arfa |
#8
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
On 12/11/2014 10:16, Gareth Magennis wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa There are a few issues he 1. This is a piano, and piano players hit keys HARD. 2. The structure of the key contact strips is such that the shape of the moulding is the "sprung piston" that ensures both contacts land straight and accurately onto the PCB so the velocity of the key can be accurately measured. You cannot cut these things without destroying that keys piston and the ones around it that rely on their neighbours to keep its structure shape intact. 3. Mending these things with paint etc might work for a day or so, then your customer will think you are a Klutz for mending it instead of replacing it and charging money for labour instead of a cheap new part. 4. You can buy them from the manufacturers for a few pounds. 5. Give number 4, why on earth would you consider 2 or 3 unless the part was no longer available? Gareth. I doubt it, the owner did not know 2 keys were half-working, presumably he used it like a mouse-organ (ala Python), from my preliminary on receipt testing. It came in because of idiotic Jalco type 1/4 inch sockets with no mechanical fixings, I will not be replacing with Korg approved crap, standard conventional sockets will go in there mechanically fixed so they do not flop about. |
#9
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
I liked the potential booby-trap of the interboard connector, don't
remember seeing that type of breakable union before. I was surprised how clean the contacts and pcb pads were. I'll go with the single fine blonde hair looped under the octave silicone sheet, though not directly over the pads when I got to them , it was looped around the 2 affected key positions, melded to the outer flange of the silicone. The pads , moving and static and diodes,traces etc all test as expected, otherwise. alance of probabilies goes with hair. It would be quite an achievement to fudge up a conductive pad replacement. The stepped arrangement of paired pads would not be a problem but that very squashy , ie thinned silicone , of the pedastal of each pair would be next to impossible to work-around, I assume they can split at that place , with heavy use or over time. |
#10
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... I liked the potential booby-trap of the interboard connector, don't remember seeing that type of breakable union before. I was surprised how clean the contacts and pcb pads were. I'll go with the single fine blonde hair looped under the octave silicone sheet, though not directly over the pads when I got to them , it was looped around the 2 affected key positions, melded to the outer flange of the silicone. The pads , moving and static and diodes,traces etc all test as expected, otherwise. alance of probabilies goes with hair. It would be quite an achievement to fudge up a conductive pad replacement. The stepped arrangement of paired pads would not be a problem but that very squashy , ie thinned silicone , of the pedastal of each pair would be next to impossible to work-around, I assume they can split at that place , with heavy use or over time. Hairs, usually animal, are a common cause of failure here. I might have seen one or two splits in my long time repairing these, but usually the contact patches wear out long before they start disintegrating. It is quite easy to split a perfectly good one when removing it from the PCB though, if you grab the "pedestal" instead of the more robust edges. Some (Roland) are quite tightly held in place with oversize conical silicon barbs pushed through holes in the PCB, most just have interference fit silicon cylinders that push into holes in the PCB, which usually have a small hole in so you can use the wire from a ceramic power resistor to push them fully home. Gareth. |
#11
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
On 12/11/2014 15:36, Gareth Magennis wrote:
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... I liked the potential booby-trap of the interboard connector, don't remember seeing that type of breakable union before. I was surprised how clean the contacts and pcb pads were. I'll go with the single fine blonde hair looped under the octave silicone sheet, though not directly over the pads when I got to them , it was looped around the 2 affected key positions, melded to the outer flange of the silicone. The pads , moving and static and diodes,traces etc all test as expected, otherwise. alance of probabilies goes with hair. It would be quite an achievement to fudge up a conductive pad replacement. The stepped arrangement of paired pads would not be a problem but that very squashy , ie thinned silicone , of the pedastal of each pair would be next to impossible to work-around, I assume they can split at that place , with heavy use or over time. Hairs, usually animal, are a common cause of failure here. I might have seen one or two splits in my long time repairing these, but usually the contact patches wear out long before they start disintegrating. It is quite easy to split a perfectly good one when removing it from the PCB though, if you grab the "pedestal" instead of the more robust edges. Some (Roland) are quite tightly held in place with oversize conical silicon barbs pushed through holes in the PCB, most just have interference fit silicon cylinders that push into holes in the PCB, which usually have a small hole in so you can use the wire from a ceramic power resistor to push them fully home. Gareth. If a 50 micron hair is enough to block a function, it looks as though the moving contact pads are too hard. I wonder if they harden-up with age or use. |
#12
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:05:54 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote: "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa Greetings Arfa, I'm in America. I have never heard of "Bacofoil". Is it just aluminum foil? I know that we share many products that go by different names. But then there are a few products that we don't share with you folks on the other side of the water. Like Marmite, for example. I can buy Marmite here, but I won't. Cheers, Eric |
#13
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:05:54 -0000, "Arfa Daily" wrote: "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa Greetings Arfa, I'm in America. I have never heard of "Bacofoil". Is it just aluminum foil? I know that we share many products that go by different names. But then there are a few products that we don't share with you folks on the other side of the water. Like Marmite, for example. I can buy Marmite here, but I won't. Cheers, Eric Eric, Marmite is really good for adding to a gravy that is a bit sweet, fatty, or otherwise insipid or just not wide enough. You only need a little, though. (If you can taste the Marmite you've put too much in) It can really open the whole thing out. Anchovy does similar things to food that requires "something more to liven it up but I don't know what". Again you don't want it tasting of Anchovy. Gareth. |
#14
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
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#15
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
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#16
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
N_Cook wrote: More generally is it a litigious USA thing. In the UK we are quite happy to refer to a hoover or selotape or Stilsons or Mole-grips or Jubilee Clips or veroboard or whatever, instead of a generic term Bull****. The generic terms are used, because there are so many brands. If you've never been to the United States you have no idea of its size. A lot of brands are regional, so someone outside of that area wouldn't know what you were talking about. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
#18
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
Greetings Arfa, I'm in America. I have never heard of "Bacofoil". Is it just aluminum foil? I know that we share many products that go by different names. But then there are a few products that we don't share with you folks on the other side of the water. Like Marmite, for example. I can buy Marmite here, but I won't. Cheers, Eric Yep, just ally foil, usually shiny on one side and dull on the other. "Bacofoil" is just one of the original trade names associated with the product over here. Anyone my age will just call it Bacofoil in the same way as just about any vacuum cleaner gets called a "Hoover". Just as a matter of interest, why would you not buy Marmite ? Is it just that you don't like the taste ? Arfa |
#19
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
snip
By the way, I think Mole Grips are the equivalent of Vise-Grips. Which of course means they grip very hard. Have you ever been gripped by a mole? All the moles I have seen are small creatures with small appendages. I can't imagine they have much grip. Eric Check out http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=76374 which will explain part way down where the name comes from ... Arfa |
#20
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
Back to piano and forte.
Is there a recognised technique with perhaps a modified air duster to get under an affected key and the contacts area and only requiring removing the top "hearth surround" cover perhaps, for shifting non grimey guunge, as an at-venue emergency temporary fix? |
#21
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
wrote in message ...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 19:21:11 +0000, N_Cook wrote: On 12/11/2014 17:01, wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:05:54 -0000, "Arfa Daily" wrote: "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... On 12/11/2014 08:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Loss of pianisimo ? (heavy key press only to activate) on 2 keys. That area schema/views not on elektrot. 2 contacts per key?, one worn or dirty per key? Nearly always due to dirty or worn key contact rubbers. These are usually in octave strips available from the manufacturer. Don't bother trying to repair these with paint etc. Really. (Sometimes its just due to dirt - tobacco, pet hairs etc which can be cleaned off) Each key has 2 contacts, one hits the PCB before the other, the time difference calculating the speed of impact, and thus loudness of note. Gareth. Assuming if not just grime, I have a large collection of zapper contact sheets, to cut a couple of dimples from, and give them a go No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Really. I knew that was going to happen. Gareth. Oh ye of little faith, Gareth. I'm sure he would be able to make them work again nearly like new by coating with foil from a cigarette packet, or if it's a *really* professional unit, Bacofoil ... :-) Arfa Greetings Arfa, I'm in America. I have never heard of "Bacofoil". Is it just aluminum foil? I know that we share many products that go by different names. But then there are a few products that we don't share with you folks on the other side of the water. Like Marmite, for example. I can buy Marmite here, but I won't. Cheers, Eric More generally is it a litigious USA thing. In the UK we are quite happy to refer to a hoover or selotape or Stilsons or Mole-grips or Jubilee Clips or veroboard or whatever, instead of a generic term Oh, I don't think that's quite accurate. We ask for a Kleenex when we want a tissue, a Q-Tip when we want a cotton swab, a Cresent wrench when we want an adjustable wrench (spanner to you), Vise_Grips when we want locking pliers, etc. By the way, I think Mole Grips are the equivalent of Vise-Grips. Which of course means they grip very hard. Have you ever been gripped by a mole? All the moles I have seen are small creatures with small appendages. I can't imagine they have much grip. Eric While not the source of the common name of the self-locking pliers, those small creatures with small appendages evolved to travel _through_ the ground; they are surprisingly powerful (or is it 'surprizingly?') when held in the hands. Scott |
#22
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 01:55:37 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote: Greetings Arfa, I'm in America. I have never heard of "Bacofoil". Is it just aluminum foil? I know that we share many products that go by different names. But then there are a few products that we don't share with you folks on the other side of the water. Like Marmite, for example. I can buy Marmite here, but I won't. Cheers, Eric Yep, just ally foil, usually shiny on one side and dull on the other. "Bacofoil" is just one of the original trade names associated with the product over here. Anyone my age will just call it Bacofoil in the same way as just about any vacuum cleaner gets called a "Hoover". Just as a matter of interest, why would you not buy Marmite ? Is it just that you don't like the taste ? Arfa I tried Marmite and just plain didn't like it. A store called "The British Pantry" that I used to live near sold it. They suggested spreading it on crackers. I tried it and decided not to try it again. This is not to suggest that I don't like different things or strong tasting stuff. I make several types of Thai curries and one ubiquitous ingredient called for is fish sauce. I bought some, opened the bottle, and the smell of rotten fish almost gagged me when I stuck my nose over the bottle and breathed in. The curry I was making called for 1/4 cup of the stuff but the smell was so bad I only used 1 tablespoon. The curry just didn't taste right until I used the proper 1/4 cup amount. Maybe I need to put Marmite in something to flavor it. Thanks for identifying Bacofoil. The reason for a dull side and a shiny side is because the foil is rolled as two sheets which are separated after rolling. The shiny side is the side facing the rolls. Thanks for posting the link too. Eric |
#23
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Korg SP 250, electric piano
I tried Marmite and just plain didn't like it. A store called "The British Pantry" that I used to live near sold it. They suggested spreading it on crackers. I tried it and decided not to try it again. Ah, OK. It is definitely an 'acquired taste' but kids here tend to be brought up on the stuff - maybe not so much now as in the past though. Marmite themselves make a big thing of its 'bipolar' reputation - you either love it or hate it, there's really no in-between ground. They have even run adverts showing people hating it. I wonder what sort of crackers they were recommending that you put it on ? Most of the crackers that I've bought over there when visiting, would not be very suitable. Ritz-style ones would be a definite no-no, and it's not very good on things like cream crackers or water biscuits either. I wonder also if they told you to put it directly onto the crackers, because that is a no-no, as well. You must have butter on the 'substrate' first. You can just about get away with butter substitute spreads, but 'straight' butter is best, and not the whipped stuff if you can get unwhipped. A good place to start with Marmite, is on white bread. Not any of the 'sweet' varieties that are common in the U.S. If you can get a plain white fresh-baked crusty loaf, all the better. Spread with butter first, then with the Marmite - and keep it thin. Personally, I pile the stuff on with a trowel, but that's because I've been eating it for 55 years ! Many people like it on toast. I'm not a great fan of that, but same again - butter first. As for 'crackers' its rye crispbreads that you want really. A common one here is Ryvita and I think you have that your side of the pond as well. If not, I'm sure there is an equivalent. Again, a decent layer of butter first, then a thin layer of Marmite. If you do decide to try again, using it for a cooking flavouring, just try it as described on bread on crispbread while you're at it. You might just be pleasantly surprised ... :-) Arfa |
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