Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

FAILED SOLUTION:
at first I thought telco must have a flooded building nearby so called
telco supplier, Century Link, Operator said sounded like a crossed
connection. she confirmed the possibility by saying outgoing wouldn't
notice, but with incoming the office tries to connect to two lines. Put
high priority on repair and someone was driving around here the next day.
The technician probably checked a lot out first, then came to our building
and left. Later I called in, the repair ticket said FINISHED determined to
be inside our building, bill the customer $85 !!!????

And yes. the line worked after the technician's visit; BOTH ways ?! I know
all he could do is disconnect, test, and reconnect.

Regarding THAT solution, I was livid to have the telco supply a potential
scenario of responsibility, THEN turn around and bill me for 'fixing' it,
claiming its me. Keep in mind the phone line now works. After a few calls
to Century Link , and convincing them I was misled by their employees as
to the source of the problem, and the fact that it now works with whatever
their employee did; they reversed the charge. [I'm in Electronic Design
and cannot even fathom a piece of electronic gear that could duplicate
this effect, well not without some effort anyway.]

PROBLEM AGAIN
yesterday, the problem came back with a vengeance! outgoing, no problems.
Incoming, tinkle ring and poor voice connection. Called the Operator to
'test' the line with a ring back [hang up, listen for ring, no matter what
pick up line within ten seconds to reconnect to Operator] This time the
phone line was completely dead, no microphone feedback! About an 1 1/2
hour later, phone line worked again for outgoing. Tested incoming, and
again a dead line ?! Wow this is strange. Checking around, within 1/2
hour, no dial tone, but would get that screaming tone as a precursor to
"hang up your phone" ??!! Very weird.

SOLUTION
Thought I'd 'pretend' problem was in our building, so removing the break
out panel for the phone system to our whole building found the
distribution bar for all the wired telephone outlets, thought I'd start to
check AND! one of the wires for the incoming telephone cable coming into
the bus LIFTED OUT OF ITS COMPRESSION SLOT!!! The wire oddly was dull
showing a film of corrosion, pressed the wire back in and voila!
Everything works again.

CONCLUSION
Evidently, the connection had been slowly sliding out of the compression
slot and the poor connection worked for the low current OFF HOOK status
and the low current ON HOOK status when making an outgoing call. BUT, when
confronted with that 90V ring tone, the higher impedance must have played
havoc, because it even caused a poor voice connection.


I don't undertand the exact mechanism here, but I share for those of you
who may have had weird problems.

Had a siilar problem years ago. They used yto have to come and change my pair down the street as it had flooded plenty of times annd every tie it raind this would hapen. Only get one short ring and then nothing.

Whatevr corrosion was in there was obviously not linear. the lower voltages in off hok and tip were fine, but when that ring voltage came along it wpould tip and tell the coputer the phione had been picked up, but in this case didn;t stay shortd long enough to keep the call and not only did we not gt the call, we didn't even gt the CID so we could call people back. The line was also quite noisy.

I had had enough and basically whneever it hapened again I just told them to let me talk to a supervisor or someone who really knows what they're doig.. there was no more disconnect the interface box and all that ****, they KNEW the trunk line was compromised. I told them not to even bother coming to the house, just go down on Denison avenus and change out pair again. Once they started cooperating it went very smooth. Of course a history of all this was on record which did help.

Sometimes these companies have people who answer the phone scripted and they can't do anything, so juust cut to the chase, tell them you want someone higher on the food chain.

I remember AOL and their bull**** like this. After while I just told them right off the bat that I am an advanced user. I have laready tried the first five thigs they were going to say and I checksd that and got that and all that.

Companies also ant that money and that is the way it is set up. It used to be you could trust them but no more. Have your **** together before you even call them. I think that apllies to any tech support anymore.

Another interesting thing about AOL, one tie I couldn't gt on and it turned out my passwords were invalid. I called and they said I had been hacked so they would give e some temp passwords to use, and to change them at mya earliest convienience. ALL SEVEN PASSWORDS that had never ever been stored on my PC. Ever, I simply do not do that.

I said "So what you're saying is that YOU got hacked". After a sall delay the reply came in the affirmative.

Moral of the story - they will never take the blame unless they absolutely have to. I wonder how many copies of McJunkffes and Noruselesston they sold because people thought they had been hacked when they hadn't.

On 30/10/2014 13:21, RobertMacy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within
95% of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

FAILED SOLUTION:
at first I thought telco must have a flooded building nearby so called
telco supplier, Century Link, Operator said sounded like a crossed
connection. she confirmed the possibility by saying outgoing wouldn't
notice, but with incoming the office tries to connect to two lines. Put
high priority on repair and someone was driving around here the next
day. The technician probably checked a lot out first, then came to our
building and left. Later I called in, the repair ticket said FINISHED
determined to be inside our building, bill the customer $85 !!!????

And yes. the line worked after the technician's visit; BOTH ways ?! I
know all he could do is disconnect, test, and reconnect.

Regarding THAT solution, I was livid to have the telco supply a
potential scenario of responsibility, THEN turn around and bill me for
'fixing' it, claiming its me. Keep in mind the phone line now works.
After a few calls to Century Link , and convincing them I was misled by
their employees as to the source of the problem, and the fact that it
now works with whatever their employee did; they reversed the charge.
[I'm in Electronic Design and cannot even fathom a piece of electronic
gear that could duplicate this effect, well not without some effort
anyway.]

PROBLEM AGAIN
yesterday, the problem came back with a vengeance! outgoing, no
problems. Incoming, tinkle ring and poor voice connection. Called the
Operator to 'test' the line with a ring back [hang up, listen for ring,
no matter what pick up line within ten seconds to reconnect to Operator]
This time the phone line was completely dead, no microphone feedback!
About an 1 1/2 hour later, phone line worked again for outgoing. Tested
incoming, and again a dead line ?! Wow this is strange. Checking
around, within 1/2 hour, no dial tone, but would get that screaming tone
as a precursor to "hang up your phone" ??!! Very weird.

SOLUTION
Thought I'd 'pretend' problem was in our building, so removing the break
out panel for the phone system to our whole building found the
distribution bar for all the wired telephone outlets, thought I'd start
to check AND! one of the wires for the incoming telephone cable coming
into the bus LIFTED OUT OF ITS COMPRESSION SLOT!!! The wire oddly was
dull showing a film of corrosion, pressed the wire back in and voila!
Everything works again.

CONCLUSION
Evidently, the connection had been slowly sliding out of the compression
slot and the poor connection worked for the low current OFF HOOK status
and the low current ON HOOK status when making an outgoing call. BUT,
when confronted with that 90V ring tone, the higher impedance must have
played havoc, because it even caused a poor voice connection.


I don't undertand the exact mechanism here, but I share for those of you
who may have had weird problems.

On the route between my landline and exchange is a railway bridge that
carries phone lines. About 2 years ago they "lifted" it to allow larger
container trains through. That or coincidence of crackly line, bad ring
condition, at that time and after. Whenever it occured I dialled the
17070 UK BT test number to select ring back and that ring current always
seemed to (temporarily ) cure the problem. Reading this reminded me no
problems for some months or the last year perhaps

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe. "

Um, dude, that is like a really old joke. I mean, it's not like back when you sold your daughters and ****, the telephone was invented at least, but it wasn't yesterday.

Actually all kinds of grounding requirements changed over the last few decades. I know of a few because of the house wiring I've done. And then in the audio/video business. I ran across this guy who had a barter deal with the shop. We sold him a projector for some other work or whatever, and he was having a problem after he had the cable put in.

Whenever he had the cable hooked up the picture had a hum bar, no matter the source. Like on the DVD he played it, had a hum bar unless he disconnected the cable.

Turns out he had two ground rods driven in and for whatever reason there was a ground gradient. A slight ground gradient at power line is not necessarily proof of a fault, depends where they are. And really, we are only talking about interfereing with video which is what, a volt P-P ?

It was enough. Well now in my position I of course advised him but really could not say he was in grave danger or anything so I had him made an antenna isolator.

So basically, the projector we gave him had the third prong and got ground there. All the **** from there as well as the stereo system was on that ground but the cable box (coax ground) was on another, IIRC he said they were like forty feet away.

Another alternative would be to just tell him to cut the ****ing ground prong off of all his stuff, but that wouldn't quite be right now would it.

Plus get this, I **** you not, this guy is an electrician ! So if he ever did that in his own house, and something happened, damn.

But the simple antenna isolator was perfectly legal since the box was still grounded by everything else now.

What else would anyone do about that **** ? (and who the hell else gets things this wierd and has to figure the out remotely ?)

Yup, I am happier doing vintage audio. Need a side job though.

wrote:

"The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe. "

Um, dude, that is like a really old joke. I mean, it's not like back when you sold your daughters and ****, the telephone was invented at least, but it wasn't yesterday.


It isn't a joke, people actually did it. You wouldn't believe the
dangerous crap that the service techs would find on customer sites. Of
course, a fool like you would think that a worker being killed by a
spark around a gas leak is funny. Just like the former cable TV
customer who spliced a plug on his dead cable drop and plugged it into
the wall to try to kill someone. Or another who hack sawed into a .750"
hardline and connected lamp cord for an illegal cable drop, then wanted
to sue the cable company for damaging his TV when the 60 VAC modified
sinewave destroyed the tuner.


Just because you turn your offspring into whores, doesn't mean anyone
else does it.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Cobwebs that get wet at either the pole junction or internal to the house.

The inside problems I found.

But, we were having issues where the phone would cut out when it rained. DSL was worse, but would connect.

One of the techs actually came back and said "Here was your problem", and brought back a piece of wire with some of the insulation chewed. He said, while I was at it, I removed about 1000' from your telco line.

Generally, by the time the tech came out, the problem would go away. e.g. It dried out.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 22:33:56 -0700 (PDT), junebug1701
wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.
Years ago I lived in a neighborhood with ground water problems. The
developement had been built on a wetland. After the lots were graded
many homes, mine included, only had about 6 inches of soil sitting on
hardpan. The development ran downhill so the lots and streets were
stepped. Anyway, one day my phone service got really noisy and later
that day I was out in the front yard and noticed water coming out from
under the cover of the pedestal mounted phone box. I called the phone
company and was told that phones don't use water and so there couldn't
be water coming out of the box. I insisted on a service call and was
told I'd be billed if it wasn't the phone box spurting water. When the
guy came out to fix the problem he was flabbergasted. He had never
seen anything like it. The temporary solution was to remove a cover on
the pedestal so the water poured out before the box. Later that year
all the phone lines on my street were re-done and a new box installed
up the street.
Eric

"Of
course, a fool like you would think that a worker being killed by a
spark around a gas leak is funny. "

WTF is wrong with you ? I am certainly not the fool here. That joke about the dog barking is a JOKE.

Lemme splain it to you, telco wires are not grounded, they are a pair. IF, and this is a pretty good sized IF, one of them became grounded at all there would be a ****load of noise on the line, probably to the point of making it unusable.

IT IS FICTION. And thanx for trying unsuccessfully to bust my balls. It makes me look good.

Now about the selling of daughters, that wasn't me. You should know who that was, it is in the Bible.

So you think they grounded a telephone line with a short in it to a dog chain ? And I am a fool ?

I'll tell you what, I think that anyone who EVER EVEN THOUGHT of joining the military should not be allowed to run for any office. Military people should never have domain over private Citizens. You sold your ass into slavery to the oil companies, I don't want you selling ours. (any more that is)

Hurry up and find another name to call me. It'll make you feel better.
EVER.

wrote:

"Of
course, a fool like you would think that a worker being killed by a
spark around a gas leak is funny. "

WTF is wrong with you ? I am certainly not the fool here. That joke about the dog barking is a JOKE.

Lemme splain it to you, telco wires are not grounded, they are a pair. IF, and this is a pretty good sized IF, one of them became grounded at all there would be a ****load of noise on the line, probably to the point of making it unusable.

IT IS FICTION. And thanx for trying unsuccessfully to bust my balls. It makes me look good.

Now about the selling of daughters, that wasn't me. You should know who that was, it is in the Bible.

So you think they grounded a telephone line with a short in it to a dog chain ? And I am a fool ?

I'll tell you what, I think that anyone who EVER EVEN THOUGHT of joining the military should not be allowed to run for any office. Military people should never have domain over private Citizens. You sold your ass into slavery to the oil companies, I don't want you selling ours. (any more that is)

Hurry up and find another name to call me. It'll make you feel better.
EVER.


Yawn. The Central office grounds the positive side of their battery
bank, and in the early days some phones lines were run with existing
fence wire. They run a pair of wires to ensure a better return path to
the C.O. or where the line is multiplexed onto a copper pair or fiber
optic. The reason for protecting both wires at the network interface is
to divert induced current from lightning strikes to ground at that end
rather than let it flow back to the other end.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"But all
earthing electrodes are required to be bonded together into one system.
That includes any lightning rod system. "'

It may or may not have been in that case, I was never at the site. I did not wire the place. Thing is, with a large place there can be a ground gradient and even if bonded together like in the basement, there can still be a potential difference. I do not know the size of the place, the grounds may have been tied together, say with 12 guage wire, but it was so long it allowed a little bit of voltage drop. Video is generally 1 volt P-P. That means 100mV is 10 IRE, certainly noticable. Half that would be noticable. Double it and you are getting close to interfering with sync.

All I know is the isolator worked. I did not wiring on the place at all so it is not my problem. Whatever the situation, the guy is an electrician but that does not mean he wored the place. He could have bought it that way.

"The Central office grounds the positive side of their battery
bank, "

Which means jack **** a couple of miles away.

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)

bud-- wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)


Yes, I meant ground. I am in so much pain that I wake up screaming,
so I don't get much sleep anymore. I don't spot some mistakes before I
hit send.

Try to find metal water pipes in most of Florida. Mine stops at the
tank on the well. That is over 100 feet from where the phone or CATV
drops are.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 10/31/2014 12:27 AM, wrote:

Turns out he had two ground rods driven in and for whatever reason there was a ground gradient. A slight ground gradient at power line is not necessarily proof of a fault, depends where they are. And really, we are only talking about interfereing with video which is what, a volt P-P ?


There is not enough information to tell how this was set up. But all
earthing electrodes are required to be bonded together into one system.
That includes any lightning rod system.

The cable shield is grounded to the earthing system at the entry to the
house. The service neutral is also connected to the earthing system. For
overhead distribution I assume the cable drop is grounded at the tap at
the feeder cable. The feed cable is grounded at at least some of the
poles. That puts the cable drop in parallel with the house service
neutral, and the neutral voltage drop will appear on the shield. Only
way I can see to avoid it is if the cable drop is isolated at the source
tap (like transformer coupled). I assume significant 60Hz is removed
with a high pass filter.
What is the signal voltage on cable?

bud-- wrote:

What is the signal voltage on cable?


I don't know about all CATV systems, but the one I did some design
work on was based on +10 dBmv at the street to all for up to four sets
per drop. +10 dBmv = 3.1623 mV.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

wrote:

"The Central office grounds the positive side of their battery
bank, "

Which means jack **** a couple of miles away.


Sigh. Why don't you sober up, and grow up?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

bud-- wrote:

On 10/31/2014 1:16 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

bud-- wrote:

What is the signal voltage on cable?


I don't know about all CATV systems, but the one I did some design
work on was based on +10 dBmv at the street to all for up to four sets
per drop. +10 dBmv = 3.1623 mV.


Interesting.
I would think there would always be a lot more 60Hz noise than that.
High pass filter?


The lowest RF is channel t-7, with a 7 MHz video carrier. The RF is
transformer coupled, and the amplifiers are line powered. The pole
mounted transformers put out a 30 (Mostly obsolete by the '80s) or 60
volts AC modified sinewave from a large CVT. The main trunkline can be
up to 30 A. The hum problem in CATV is from power supplies modulating
the video as capacitors age. There is no AC on the drop to a home, but
it is possible in an apartment building or condo where a line extender
is installed in the equipment room.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 10/31/2014 1:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

bud-- wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)


Yes, I meant ground. I am in so much pain that I wake up screaming,
so I don't get much sleep anymore. I don't spot some mistakes before I
hit send.


"Neural" was actually jurb, not you.

On 10/31/2014 1:16 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

bud-- wrote:

What is the signal voltage on cable?


I don't know about all CATV systems, but the one I did some design
work on was based on +10 dBmv at the street to all for up to four sets
per drop. +10 dBmv = 3.1623 mV.


Interesting.
I would think there would always be a lot more 60Hz noise than that.
High pass filter?

" "The Central office grounds the positive side of their battery
bank, "

Which means jack **** a couple of miles away.



Sigh. Why don't you sober up, and grow up? "

Me grow up ? I tell you that grounding something far away doesn't mean much, and you take that as a sign of immaturity or inebriation ?

**** you. Try responding. you got nothing here so you resort to dumb **** like a little kid. "Grow up and sober up". The **** do you know about me ?

Who is calling whom names ?

Callingnames, and accusing of something you might think bad as if you are some sort of judge. I do not care if I am so ****ing drunk I cannot walk, and that hasn't happened in decades, or so immature I still play with blocks. You got me beat in every ****ing thing you ever called me.

YOU GROW UP.

On Friday, October 31, 2014 1:27:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:

WTF is wrong with you ? I am certainly not the fool here. That joke about the dog barking is a JOKE.

Lemme splain it to you, telco wires are not grounded, they are a pair. IF, and this is a pretty good sized IF, one of them became grounded at all there would be a ****load of noise on the line, probably to the point of making it unusable.

IT IS FICTION. And thanx for trying unsuccessfully to bust my balls. It makes me look good.

Are you calling me a liar? I WAS THERE, I SAW IT. This was 1979, rural Louisiana, South Central Bell. The customer's service was a PARTY LINE, with 2 parties sharing the same pair. When party 1 received a call, the ringing voltage was sent down the tip side of the line. The ringer in the phone was wired from the tip side to ground. When party 2 received a call, the ringing voltage was sent down the ring side of the line. His phone was wired as party 2, with the ringer connected to the ring side and ground. When the dog owner got a call, the ringing voltage went from his side of the line to ground, which was connected to a water pipe the dog was chained to. The soil was very dry, so the ground was not very good, probably a high resistance. The dog provided a better ground. And no, this is not a joke.

Are you calling me a liar? I WAS THERE, I SAW IT.

Wow.

I never intended to call you a liar at all, I meant to call you a joker. Really, I thought it was a joke or a not-quite-urban legend.

The story has certainly gotten around. What is even more surprising is that it was 1979 ! Was the thing installed in like the 1940s and never upgraded or anything ?

I guess I stand corrected. I never snopesed it or anything, just assumed it was a joke. Since I had read it on the internet I wasn't even skeptical, really, I simply believed it was a joke all these years.

I hope you don't mind if I snopes it just to make sure you're not pulling my leg... Not lying, but like sending the newbie in the shop to go get a...I forget what it was but it doesn't exist and the techs would always claim someone else has it... You know, a joke.

What's next, aliens tunnelling their way out of area 51 ?

I guess I owe you an admission of wrong.

Not any apology, because that is a story I read on the internet and the skepticism kept me from believing it. There is no shortage of bull**** on the net.

Calling osmeone a foll for not automaticall believeing something like that is not appropriate. I don't mean ettiquette, I mean logic. After all, look how many Darwin awards have been debunked.

I did have a look :

"URBAN MYTHS 126: PAVLOV'S DOG AND BONE

A FRIEND of a friend wrote to her telephone company to register a
vehement and most unusual complaint. The elderly widow was forever
being scolded by her relatives for not answering her phone. She
claimed they never rang. When the telephone did ring, it was
invariably preceded by three loud barks, in intervals, from her dog in
the yard. Yet when she got to the receiver there would be no one on
the line.


'How does my Spot know when the phone's going to ring,' fumed the
irate customer, 'when you don't even feed my calls through?' An
investigator duly arrived. He began testing the woman's hearing by
muttering insults under his breath. Each time, she shouted, 'I heard
that,' so the fault clearly didn't lie with her. The handset was
functioning normally as well. Eventually he hit on the problem. He
discovered that the dog in the yard had been fastened to a post that
also carried the telephone cable. The animal's chain had worn through
the cable and chafed at the core, which carried a small electrical
current to operate the system.

Each time someone rang up it caused a fur-raising, tingling
sensation in the dog's neck, causing it to jump up and bark.

On the third pulse, the cumulative stimulation reached the mutt's
bladder. The resultant puddle connecting with the wire was somehow
enough to complete a circuit, and the phone would then ring for hours
on end of its own volition.

The engineer made good the repair. 'There,' he said, patting the
dog. 'No charge.'"

What would you think ?

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...4;t=001085;p=1

Is the source BTW.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

I don't know what version of NFPA 70 (NEC) you are talking about; but
recent editions of the NEC requires a grounding electrode (rod) with at
least 10 feet in direct earth contact; plus bonding to water pipe and gas
pipe when metallic. Also bonding to the structural steel if there is
significant steel above ground. Enforcing article 250 et seq. has been
part of my job for the past 8 years.


That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)

On 11/3/2014 10:19 PM, josephkk wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:55:14 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 10/30/2014 11:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

junebug1701 wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Actually, sharing with you all, but English, what can I say?


this started after the famous flooding here - covered in the national news.
PROBLEM:
outgoing calls: NO problem, clear voice line and dial up modem within 95%
of 'normal' [seen slower rates before with damp weather]
incoming calls: the ring sounded anemic, like a single tinkle, not to be
repeated. Pick up phone, and someone was there?! albeit the connection
sounded like old fashioned long distance.

This reminds me of a strange service call I had when I worked as a Bell System repair technician. It was a rural area and the customer complained that none of her phones would ring, but that she knew somebody was calling whenever her dog howled. Sounded crazy to me, but it turns out that she was on a party line which requires a good earth ground on the third (yellow) wire for the ringers. Well, the unlucky dog was chained to a poorly grounded water pipe which also held the ground clamp and wire for the telephone protector. Whenever she got a call the poor dog got a 90VAC jolt! That's one of the reasons the telcos quit grounding to water pipes in favor of the electrical power neutral.

(US practice.)

You mean the service "ground", not the neutral.

Phone techs had better not be connecting anything inside the service panel.

A convenient point of connection is the wire to the earthing electrodes,
but it is not the only place the connection can be made.

Recent services have an "intersystem bonding termination" where phone
and coax entry ground connections must be made.


The reason that they switched was that the NEC required them to. Some
fools couldn't tell the difference between a water and a gas pipe.


The NEC did not require them to.

Water pipes (10 or more ft of metal in contact with the earth) must
still be used as one of the power system earthing electrodes.

I don't know what version of NFPA 70 (NEC) you are talking about; but
recent editions of the NEC requires a grounding electrode (rod) with at
least 10 feet in direct earth contact; plus bonding to water pipe and gas
pipe when metallic. Also bonding to the structural steel if there is
significant steel above ground. Enforcing article 250 et seq. has been
part of my job for the past 8 years.

There may be requirements other than the NEC where you are working.

The NEC requirements a

- Power earthing may have one or many electrodes that are connected
together as an earthing system (250.50).

- A metal water service pipe MUST be used as one of the earthing
electrodes. It has been so since time began. Exact requirements have
changed over time as more water services use plastic pipe. The
requirement for many years is that a metal water service pipe in contact
with the earth for 10 ft MUST be used as an earthing electrode. (250.50,
250.52)

- If the water service pipe is NOT metal-10ft, then the interior metal
water pipe must be "bonded" to the power ground system (250.104-A). The
connection as an earthing electrode (above) is more stringent than
"bonding".

- Since a metal water service may be replaced by plastic, a
"supplemental" electrode has been required for many years. Many kinds of
electrode can be used (250.53-D). Often it has been a ground rod because
they are easy to install.

- Gas piping must be "bonded" to the building ground system. The size of
the bonding wire is determined by the current rating of the circuit that
is likely to energize the pipe. In a house this is likely the feed
circuit for a furnace, or similar device. "The equipment grounding
conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be
permitted to serve as the bonding means." (250.104-B)

- Gas service pipe may not be used as an earthing electrode.

- Structural steel may be required to be used as an earthing electrode
(250.50, 250.52). Else it is required to be "bonded" (250.104-C).
Connection as an earthing electrode is more stringent than "bonding".

- For new construction, if there is a concrete foundation or footing, a
"concrete encased electrode" is required (250.50, 250.52) These are
commonly called a "Ufer" ground. They are a good electrode (far better
than a ground rod) and are used as the "supplementary" electrode for a
water service pipe where both are present.

- Ground rods are required to be used as an earthing electrode "where
present". They won't be present unless someone installs one. Installing
one is not required. (250.50)
Rods are 8 ft min, and the types used are 5/8" diameter. They must have
a resistance to earth of 25 ohms or less, or else 2 can be used and
there is no requirement (250.53-A-2).

Ground rods are among the worst earthing electrodes. If you connect a
120V circuit to a code compliant 25 ohm rod will it blow a 15A fuse?

If the only earthing electrode is a ground rod (which is compliant is
some places), and the rod has a near miraculous resistance to earth of
10 ohms, and there is a surge to earth of 3,000A, the potential of the
building "ground" is 30,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. In
general, 70% of the voltage drop away from the rod is in the first 3 ft.
Over 3 ft from the rod is at least 21,000V from the building "ground"
system. If you have a rooftop TV antenna that is earthed only to a
separate rod the coax will be over 21,000V from the power "ground". You
may also get that on a metal gas service pipe, which is why very
thin-walled CSST can be a problem.


What I wrote is consistent with NEC requirements.
Installing earthing systems has been part of my job for the past
....um... lots of years.


That metal water pipe can still be used as the ground for phone entry
protectors (if there is no intersystem bonding termination). In the past
the connection could be anywhere. Now it must be within the first 5 ft
inside the building. That is the same place the connection must now be
made for the water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Gas pipes are grounded at locations like furnaces.

Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) is often used for gas piping
inside a building because it is flexible. There have been fires and
explosions, and I think all manufacturers now require the stuff to be
connected to the earthing system near the building entry. (There have
been fires where the stuff was grounded to manufacturer's specs. An
electrical inspector recommended electricians not make the ground
connection, then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. I would not
use CSST.)