Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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David Lesher
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

"Steve" writes:



Snipped the rest


An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by
Jim Cox.


The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a
small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output
shaft to be measured.


I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine.
Who/what would measure the speed?


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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N. Thornton
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Hi Steve.

Washing machine motors:

2 wires for the armature
2 wires for the field
2 wires for the tacho
- thats the normal setup of these.

You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.

Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.

Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).

Regards, NT
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James Sweet
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
induction motor.


"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Hi Steve.

Washing machine motors:

2 wires for the armature
2 wires for the field
2 wires for the tacho
- thats the normal setup of these.

You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.

Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.

Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).

Regards, NT



  #4   Report Post  
Bob Minchin
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

James Sweet wrote:

These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and
low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical
timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers
have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big
induction motor.

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Hi Steve.

Washing machine motors:

2 wires for the armature
2 wires for the field
2 wires for the tacho
- thats the normal setup of these.

You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it)
or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye
on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for
long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs.

Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be
used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing.

Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!).

Regards, NT


Most british machines have used universal brush motors for the last 30 years
or so.
Mainly to satisfy the requirement for higher and higher spin speeds at low
cost.

Bob

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David Lesher
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Bob Minchin writes:

I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine.
Who/what would measure the speed?



That is exactly how a washing machine motor is speed controlled. The tacho
generator tells the electronic module what speed the motor is running at. It is
the only way to get a simple universl motor to run at washing speed (50 ish rpm)
and 1100 or more rpm for spinning.



Well, I've never worked on a Lucas washing machine, but I've fixed my share
of Maytag's, FSP's [various nameplates] etc.

I have never seen a speed control of any form. The FSP's use a transmission
that oscillated the agitator while the drum rotated, and then changed gears
to spin the water out while the pump drains the drum.

The resulting speed is load-dependent. When it's full of water it's
starts out slower than when empty..





--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433


  #6   Report Post  
~^Johnny^~
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:34:11 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

but I've fixed my share
of FSP's [various nameplates]


LOL!

Whirpool, FYI. :-)


"FSP" is Whirlpool's acronym meaning: "Factory Specialized Part".

--
-john


~~~~~~~~
"When the world was flat as a pancake,
Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine
~~~~~~~~
  #7   Report Post  
Bob Minchin
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Tom Jacobs wrote:

"Chris" wrote in message



"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:M0XUa.160597$N7.21682@sccrnsc03...
: These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
: north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp
: capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and

I have just changed my 18 year old "hoover computer control" machine just
for a new "LG". The Hoover motor had Brushes and what sounded and appeared
to be Thyristor controller it seemed very sophisticated and reliable for an
old washer. Chris R


Hi All,
I've recently ripped apart 4 front loaders purchased in the U/K within
the last 5 years. Thay all seem to be of Italian origin, 2 had
commutator
motors and 2 had induction motors (capacitor run, I think, no
centrifugal
switches could be heard). I have had all of these running successfully,
and fukky understand the tacho' run type of speed control on comm mtors.
However, the induction motors (2 speed), also have a tacho fitted at the
rear, and a small control box. These 2 run very well at both speeds
direct
from the mains, with the cap connected. Does anyone know what the taco'
bit is for ?.
1 more question for those more enlightened than myself, the induction
motors are marked with conflicting current / wattage ratings, ie

220/240 V, 4 A, 330 W or similar. Can someone please explain ?

Besr Regards

Tom.

"Nunce excreta in extractum est".

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG


Current rating will be the current drawn from the supply, power will be the power
output of the motor. The difference will be shared between power factor and the
motor efficiency.

Tacho (you eat tacos !!) on and induction motor?? Hmm! I wonder. Perhaps some form
of electronic switching of start winding/capacitor perhaps.

Bob


  #8   Report Post  
Nigel Eaton
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

In article lgate.org,
Tom Jacobs writes

and fukky understand the tacho'


I ruv you rong time, ten dorrah!

Sorry, it *had* to be done...
--
Nigel

When the only tools you have are a Bridgeport, a Myford, a Colchester and
assorted other stuff, every problem looks like a steam engine.

  #9   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:30:05 +0000 (UTC), "Tom Jacobs"
wrote:

"Nigel Eaton" wrote in message


In article lgate.org,
Tom Jacobs writes

and fukky understand the tacho'


I ruv you rong time, ten dorrah!

Sorry, it *had* to be done...



Hi All,

Thank you for all the replies, both in and out of group.
I admit with red cheeks, that I did not read my post properly,
and can only say that the "k" is next to the "l" (well noticed
Nigel, must have been a friedonion slip, but don't aplol
gise, I ruv a bit of mild p taking), but I did spell tacho
correctly twice, and I also made a,mistake in the motor ratings.
The current stated should have been 4.4 A not .4, ie 1KW approx'.
Is the efficiency of the motor so low, I often see 1 HP quoted as
700 ish watts and didn't think about efficiency.

I am trying to get some schem's from the manufacturer of one
of the machines to see what the tacho' is for, and if I do, I'll
share the info.

Best Regards,

Tom.

Nunce excretia in extractum est.



Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi
winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These
had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin
cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed
wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed
regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed.

Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin
cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors
because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term
rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of
series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is
essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed
control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not
good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the
wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted
with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC
generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to
speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the
power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed
sensed by the tacho output.

Tacho output voltage or tacho output frequency can be used
to sense motor speed. Early controllers used discrete transistors and
a triac output. Later boards integrated most of the control functions
into a single IC - Motorola TDA1085C is typical.

Jim
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Sam Goldwasser
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

writes:

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:30:05 +0000 (UTC), "Tom Jacobs"
wrote:

Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi
winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These
had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin
cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed
wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed
regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed.

Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin
cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors
because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term
rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of
series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is
essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed
control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not
good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the
wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted
with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC
generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to
speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the
power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed
sensed by the tacho output.


Sorry, don't take this as a criticism or anything more extreme but why
do European washers need so much more speed for the spin than American
machines? As far as I know, we are still happily using induction motors.
And, no it's not the difference between 50 and 60 Hz.

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  #11   Report Post  
alanjstepney
 
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Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

Get the motor with its control module, and with minimal modification it will
make an excellent
variable speed motor for a lathe.
Been using one on my ML7 for years and it is very useful.
--


www.alanstepney.info
Model Engineering, Steam Engine, and Railway technical pages.





Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin
cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors
because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term
rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of
series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is
essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed
control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not
good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the
wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted
with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC
generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to
speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the
power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed
sensed by the tacho output.

Tacho output voltage or tacho output frequency can be used
to sense motor speed. Early controllers used discrete transistors and
a triac output. Later boards integrated most of the control functions
into a single IC - Motorola TDA1085C is typical.

Jim



  #12   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Washing machne Motor wiring help!

On 05 Aug 2003 19:08:16 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote:

writes:

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:30:05 +0000 (UTC), "Tom Jacobs"
wrote:

Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi
winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These
had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin
cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed
wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed
regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed.

Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin
cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors
because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term
rated) for a given size and cost.

SNIP



Sorry, don't take this as a criticism or anything more extreme but why
do European washers need so much more speed for the spin than American
machines? As far as I know, we are still happily using induction motors.
And, no it's not the difference between 50 and 60 Hz.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html



I know nothing about American front loaders but I would be
surprised if they are still using 60Hz induction motors as the
commutator motor solution delivers better performance at a lower cost.
In the UK climate which, much of the time is cold and wet (not at
present!), high spin speed is much appreciated as it gives a better
chance of getting your washing dry in a reasonable time.

Machines using series wound wound commutator motors are now
beginning to disappear as these are being replaced, first by permanent
magnet commutator motors and later by direct electronic drive
brushless motors.

Jim
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