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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
"Steve" writes:
Snipped the rest An excellent book on the topic is "Electric Motors in the Home Workshop" by Jim Cox. The book describes that your motor is likely to be a commutator motor with a small generator running off the drive shaft to allow the speed of the output shaft to be measured. I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine. Who/what would measure the speed? -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
Hi Steve.
Washing machine motors: 2 wires for the armature 2 wires for the field 2 wires for the tacho - thats the normal setup of these. You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it) or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs. Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing. Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!). Regards, NT |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in
north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big induction motor. "N. Thornton" wrote in message om... Hi Steve. Washing machine motors: 2 wires for the armature 2 wires for the field 2 wires for the tacho - thats the normal setup of these. You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it) or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs. Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing. Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!). Regards, NT |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
James Sweet wrote:
These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and low speed. There's no control electronics or anything, just a mechanical timer and a pressure switch to measure the water level. Higher end washers have an electronic controller but the motor is generally still just a big induction motor. "N. Thornton" wrote in message om... Hi Steve. Washing machine motors: 2 wires for the armature 2 wires for the field 2 wires for the tacho - thats the normal setup of these. You can run them either off a switched mode controller (not worth it) or run it on reduced voltage with windings in series. Just keep an eye on the motor temp, as these things arent rated to run full whack for long. Reduced V comes from either a transformer or series bulbs. Dont expect any great power output running like this, but it can be used to bodge up old equipment that otherwise wouldnt be worth doing. Reversing: just swap the wires over on one of the winds (not both!). Regards, NT Most british machines have used universal brush motors for the last 30 years or so. Mainly to satisfy the requirement for higher and higher spin speeds at low cost. Bob |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
Bob Minchin writes:
I'd say that is highly unlikely in a washing machine. Who/what would measure the speed? That is exactly how a washing machine motor is speed controlled. The tacho generator tells the electronic module what speed the motor is running at. It is the only way to get a simple universl motor to run at washing speed (50 ish rpm) and 1100 or more rpm for spinning. Well, I've never worked on a Lucas washing machine, but I've fixed my share of Maytag's, FSP's [various nameplates] etc. I have never seen a speed control of any form. The FSP's use a transmission that oscillated the agitator while the drum rotated, and then changed gears to spin the water out while the pump drains the drum. The resulting speed is load-dependent. When it's full of water it's starts out slower than when empty.. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:34:11 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote: but I've fixed my share of FSP's [various nameplates] LOL! Whirpool, FYI. :-) "FSP" is Whirlpool's acronym meaning: "Factory Specialized Part". -- -john ~~~~~~~~ "When the world was flat as a pancake, Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine ~~~~~~~~ |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
Tom Jacobs wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message "James Sweet" wrote in message news:M0XUa.160597$N7.21682@sccrnsc03... : These must be european washing machines, or perhaps very high end ones in : north america. Every washing machine I've ever seen inside of uses a 1/2hp : capacitor start AC induction motor with two separate windings for high and I have just changed my 18 year old "hoover computer control" machine just for a new "LG". The Hoover motor had Brushes and what sounded and appeared to be Thyristor controller it seemed very sophisticated and reliable for an old washer. Chris R Hi All, I've recently ripped apart 4 front loaders purchased in the U/K within the last 5 years. Thay all seem to be of Italian origin, 2 had commutator motors and 2 had induction motors (capacitor run, I think, no centrifugal switches could be heard). I have had all of these running successfully, and fukky understand the tacho' run type of speed control on comm mtors. However, the induction motors (2 speed), also have a tacho fitted at the rear, and a small control box. These 2 run very well at both speeds direct from the mains, with the cap connected. Does anyone know what the taco' bit is for ?. 1 more question for those more enlightened than myself, the induction motors are marked with conflicting current / wattage ratings, ie 220/240 V, 4 A, 330 W or similar. Can someone please explain ? Besr Regards Tom. "Nunce excreta in extractum est". -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Current rating will be the current drawn from the supply, power will be the power output of the motor. The difference will be shared between power factor and the motor efficiency. Tacho (you eat tacos !!) on and induction motor?? Hmm! I wonder. Perhaps some form of electronic switching of start winding/capacitor perhaps. Bob |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
In article lgate.org,
Tom Jacobs writes and fukky understand the tacho' I ruv you rong time, ten dorrah! Sorry, it *had* to be done... -- Nigel When the only tools you have are a Bridgeport, a Myford, a Colchester and assorted other stuff, every problem looks like a steam engine. |
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:30:05 +0000 (UTC), "Tom Jacobs"
wrote: "Nigel Eaton" wrote in message In article lgate.org, Tom Jacobs writes and fukky understand the tacho' I ruv you rong time, ten dorrah! Sorry, it *had* to be done... Hi All, Thank you for all the replies, both in and out of group. I admit with red cheeks, that I did not read my post properly, and can only say that the "k" is next to the "l" (well noticed Nigel, must have been a friedonion slip, but don't aplol gise, I ruv a bit of mild p taking), but I did spell tacho correctly twice, and I also made a,mistake in the motor ratings. The current stated should have been 4.4 A not .4, ie 1KW approx'. Is the efficiency of the motor so low, I often see 1 HP quoted as 700 ish watts and didn't think about efficiency. I am trying to get some schem's from the manufacturer of one of the machines to see what the tacho' is for, and if I do, I'll share the info. Best Regards, Tom. Nunce excretia in extractum est. Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed. Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed sensed by the tacho output. Tacho output voltage or tacho output frequency can be used to sense motor speed. Early controllers used discrete transistors and a triac output. Later boards integrated most of the control functions into a single IC - Motorola TDA1085C is typical. Jim |
#11
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
Get the motor with its control module, and with minimal modification it will
make an excellent variable speed motor for a lathe. Been using one on my ML7 for years and it is very useful. -- www.alanstepney.info Model Engineering, Steam Engine, and Railway technical pages. Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed sensed by the tacho output. Tacho output voltage or tacho output frequency can be used to sense motor speed. Early controllers used discrete transistors and a triac output. Later boards integrated most of the control functions into a single IC - Motorola TDA1085C is typical. Jim |
#12
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Washing machne Motor wiring help!
On 05 Aug 2003 19:08:16 -0400, Sam Goldwasser
wrote: writes: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:30:05 +0000 (UTC), "Tom Jacobs" wrote: Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed. Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term rated) for a given size and cost. SNIP Sorry, don't take this as a criticism or anything more extreme but why do European washers need so much more speed for the spin than American machines? As far as I know, we are still happily using induction motors. And, no it's not the difference between 50 and 60 Hz. --- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html I know nothing about American front loaders but I would be surprised if they are still using 60Hz induction motors as the commutator motor solution delivers better performance at a lower cost. In the UK climate which, much of the time is cold and wet (not at present!), high spin speed is much appreciated as it gives a better chance of getting your washing dry in a reasonable time. Machines using series wound wound commutator motors are now beginning to disappear as these are being replaced, first by permanent magnet commutator motors and later by direct electronic drive brushless motors. Jim |
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