"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. "

Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ?

Hey, I am not being a pain, it's the subject.

In article ,
says...

"dave" wrote in message
m...

active component: A component requiring power to operate,
e.g. a transistor. Contrast with passive.

passive component: A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active.

That isn't the way I learned. As someone else said, an active device provides
amplification of some sort.

The question of /control/ is another matter.

It's a very simple concept...

Any device that operates as intended with out power or
biasing is passive.



jamie

In article ,
says...

"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. "

Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ?

Hey, I am not being a pain, it's the subject.

Do you need power or assistance to pass gas?

Jamie

** Get cancer and die you criminal ****ing nut case.

"Jerry Peters"
Phil Allison

"Jerry Peters"

An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.

So a relay is an active device?


** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.

It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil.


** I figured you were being facetious.

But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not.


..... Phil

wrote:
"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. "

Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ?

Nothing? I picked up on that one too, if it's not disipating some
power than there's no current flow through it.

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jerry Peters"
Phil Allison

"Jerry Peters"

An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.

So a relay is an active device?


** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.

It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil.


** I figured you were being facetious.

I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to
be capable of it. It's much like the definition of a word, there can
be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also
implications or overtones to a particular word choice.


But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not.

If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can
define what an "electronic" device is.

WHat about a magnetic amplifier?

?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not. "

Why, because they have no silicon or PN junction ? then you rule out tubes/valvs. If the exception is made because of a filament and thermionic emission, then what about gas fired tubes/valves like a 0Z4 or whatever ?

Sometimes the process of elimination is useful. What is NOT an activ device ?

Capacitor
Resistor
Inductor
Switch

That would mean then that a relay is not an active electronic device because the two main compnents are not active.

However, in a transistor....

If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

So does the addition of the second junction in a bipolar transistor make it active ? does the addition of a grid in a tube/valve make it active ?

All of this, no matter how useless an argument (nobody has any work to do ?), is coming down to the point where a diode is an active device.

On 2014-01-28, wrote:
If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output.

So does the addition of the second junction in a bipolar transistor make it
active ? does the addition of a grid in a tube/valve make it active ?

No; you also need a circuit to make it active. The minimum active circuit
you can make with a three-port device is a three-port current source.
Two terminals of the device are placed into a power circuit, and the third
terminal controls the flow of current.

Using a three-port transistor or tube triode device, plus some additional
components, like at least one resistor, we can make a four-port active circuit
based on voltages: something that takes an input voltage on one port, produces
an output on another port, and has a third port where power is supplied, so
that the input isn't driving the output.

The rule of thumb is: if inputs can control the flow of energy from the
outputs, without supplying most of that energy, then the situation is active.

If the output energy is derived from the inputs, then it is passive.

To apply this ide, we have to identify what is an energy source, what are
inputs, and what is the output (and in what form).

Example of an active device: power steering in a car. The input is you, turning
the wheel, which requires little force because of an energy source within the
power steering which actually turns the wheels.

Unpowered steering is passive: all of the energy to move the wheels comes from
you, turning the wheel.

(The rack and pinion gives you a mechanical advantage. We have such a passive
transmission in electricity also, namely the transformer. Though the
transformer adapts impedance and changes voltages and currents, all of the
output power comes from the input, so it is passive.)

"Jerry Peters"
Phil Allison

** I figured you were being facetious.

I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to
be capable of it.

** No fooling ?

It's much like the definition of a word, there can
be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also
implications or overtones to a particular word choice.


But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not.

If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can
define what an "electronic" device is.

WHat about a magnetic amplifier?


** Out of context again.

Device = single component here.

"Electronic component " is broad church too, it includes anything electronic
in nature that is intended to be used to create an electronic device.

Active devices do NOT have to be able to amplify signals - that IS what
most of them do but is not the defining issue.

BTW:

I see you are an incorrigible context shifter and a bull**** artist.

**** off.


.... Phil

?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices"
.

Which relays are not. "

Why,


** Read the rest of that post - you over snipping maniac.

Then go drop ****ing dead.

"A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output. "

So your contention then is that tunnel diodes, Gunn diodes and Zener diodes are not active devices.

If that is so, then a magnetron is also passive. It is technically a diode with an indirectly heated cathode unless you consider the magnet an element.. Also, what of the case of a Hall effct device ? Nothing electronic controls it, only a magnetic field. Other devices can have more than two terminals aqnd be passive, so where does the Hall effect fit in there ?

On 2014-01-29, wrote:
"A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output. "

So your contention then is that tunnel diodes, Gunn diodes and Zener diodes
are not active devices.

I'm trying to classify them as such, but I am unable to think of the
justification.

If that is so, then a magnetron is also passive. It is technically a diode
with an indirectly heated cathode unless you consider the magnet an element.
Also, what of the case of a Hall effct device ? Nothing electronic controls
it, only a magnetic field. Other devices can have more than two terminals
aqnd be passive, so where does the Hall effect fit in there ?

These devices can be active if we broaden the definition of "input", and
"energy" and so on beyond electronics. I already gave an example of automobile
power steering being active.

In the case of semiconductor diodes, we have photodiodes. (Actually any
silicon diode reacts to light, just isn't necessarily packaged for that use.)
The two ports of a photodiode can be configured to pass current from a power
supply. The light falling on the junction can be regarded as an input: a third
port which modulates the current. This is then "active": some energy delivery
is modulated in proportion to the light, and yet most of the energy is not
derived from that light.

Hall effect sensors and such can be conceived similarly.

An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition.

Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. The ability to switch a tube or
transistor "on" depends on the device's ability to amplify its input to the
point it's driven into saturation. The amplification mechanism is exactly the
same as when the device amplifies a continuously varying signal.

How about controlled rectifiers? These are four-layer (sometimes more) devices
sometimes modeled as two transistors in a sort of "soixante neuf" arrangement,
a kind of flip-flop. Again, the same transistor amplification mechanism makes
them work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIAC

Magnetic amplifiers use a small current to control a larger one. They're (as
the British would say) "valves", just as tubes and transistors are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier

Kaz Kylheku wrote:
On 2014-01-28, wrote:
If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output.

Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's
been done for years.

PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC
current.

--snip--

William Sommerwerck wrote:
An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition.

Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. The ability to switch a tube or
transistor "on" depends on the device's ability to amplify its input to the
point it's driven into saturation. The amplification mechanism is exactly the
same as when the device amplifies a continuously varying signal.

How about controlled rectifiers? These are four-layer (sometimes more) devices
sometimes modeled as two transistors in a sort of "soixante neuf" arrangement,
a kind of flip-flop. Again, the same transistor amplification mechanism makes
them work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIAC

Magnetic amplifiers use a small current to control a larger one. They're (as
the British would say) "valves", just as tubes and transistors are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier


I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which I would
argue makes it an active device.

On 2014-01-29, William Sommerwerck wrote:
An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition.

That is fine, but you have to remember that amplification includes unity gain
(and below).

Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes.

I would say that, as a category, no.

Counterexample:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_logic

On 01/29/2014 01:03 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
On 2014-01-28, wrote:
If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output.

Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's
been done for years.

PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC
current.

--snip--


Pin diodes don't attenuate. They connect resistors.

"Jerry Peters" wrote in message ...

I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which
I would argue makes it an active device.

So then a light switch is an active device? Hello?

The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating
whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought.

There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in the
ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active device.
Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic
component was an active device.

Case closed.

"William ****wit Sommer****** "


I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which
I would argue makes it an active device.

So then a light switch is an active device?


** FFS - it not an ELECTRONIC device.

Do you want food mixers and lawn mowers included too ??


The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and
stating whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of
thought.

** Like YOU do all the ****ing time - asshole.


There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in
the ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active
device.

** Crap.


Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic
component was an active device.

** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are
exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it.

The term " active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!!

I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended to be used in
an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk working IN ELECTRONICS
use it and dealer's catalogues reflect the fact too.

And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...Classification



..... Phil

Jerry Peters wrote:

Kaz Kylheku wrote:
On 2014-01-28, wrote:
If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output.

Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's
been done for years.

PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC
current.


We used them as band switches in a low noise synthesizer. A DC
voltage would turn the diode on to short out part of the inductor,
raising the center frequency of the VCO. Breaking the 360-510 MHz into
four overlapping segments allowed for more linear and reduced the
effects of noise on the tuning voltage that controlled the tuning.

En el artículo , William Sommerwerck
escribió:

The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating
whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought.

Welcome to Usenet. :-)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...

Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every
electronic component was an active device.

** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are
exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it.

What do you mean by "electronic"? Aren't /all/ devices used in electronic
equipment "electronic" /by definition/?


The term "active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!!

True -- the context is amplification.


I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended
to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk
working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect
the fact, too.

I don't care what most people think. I only care about the truth. To call an
ordinary rectifier an active component is beyond stupid. It is not "active",
in any reasonable sense of the term.

Phil, you're like most human beings. You believe what you want to believe,
without thinking about it.


And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!!

The article is wrong. Too bad.

Let's look at this (non-)issue in a broader sense. What was the point of
applying the adjective "active" to particular devices?

"Obviously", it was to distinguish them from non-active devices. And prior to
the Audion, there /were/ no active devices -- devices that /amplified/.

Several years ago we had an insane argument, in which a significant number of
posters claimed that transducers were amplifiers, twisting the definitions of
these terms into perverse forms.

We are now told that a PIN diode -- which is no more than a switch -- is an
active device, apparently because it's made of semiconductor material, which
/just happens/ to be used in active devices. So -- duh -- they must both be
active devices.

What does the material have to do with it? A switch is a switch. Switches are
not, and have never been, considered active devices. Do PIN diodes get a
special break, just because they're semiconductors? Are we now supposed to
classify the power switch on a table radio as an active device?

Calling an electrical generator an active device is meaningless, because it
doesn't draw any useful distinction with "inactive" devices (such as a rake or
a step ladder). An if an electrical generator is an "active" device, why isn't
a log? A log can be burned to produce energy.

Human beings are incredibly stupid. They believe what their parents tell them,
and almost always stick ferociously to their childhood beliefs throughout
life. They believe that whatever pops into their heads is true, and these
beliefs can only rarely be shaken. Worst of all, humans hardly ever ask "How
do I know whether something is true or not?" Of course, in a democracy it
doesn't matter. One person's point of view is as good as any other person's.

Whatever it is, I believe that quite possibly by now the OP has been committed to a sanitarium.

On 01/30/2014 07:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...

Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every
electronic component was an active device.

** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are
exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it.

What do you mean by "electronic"? Aren't /all/ devices used in
electronic equipment "electronic" /by definition/?


The term "active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!!

True -- the context is amplification.


I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended
to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk
working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect
the fact, too.

I don't care what most people think. I only care about the truth. To
call an ordinary rectifier an active component is beyond stupid. It is
not "active", in any reasonable sense of the term.

Phil, you're like most human beings. You believe what you want to
believe, without thinking about it.


And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!!

The article is wrong. Too bad.

Electronics is intelligent control of electrons, like the name says.

"William Sommer****** is a Pschyo ****"


I don't care what most people think.


** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean.

Autistic ****wits like WS cannot grasp this obvious truism.


I only care about the truth.


** Shame how YOU are the biggest DAMN LIAR out.




..... Phi

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...

I don't care what most people think.

** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean.

That's one of the reasons the world is so screwed up.

On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

I don't care what most people think.

So, why keep trying to make them care what
you think?

"mike" wrote in message ...
On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

I don't care what most people think.

So, why keep trying to make them care what you think?

Maybe someday I might change a mind or two.

In all my life, I have never met one person who said, "You know, Bill, you're
right. I don't use my intelligence well."

mike wrote:

On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

I don't care what most people think.

So, why keep trying to make them care what
you think?


Some people care about reality. All 'Diode' means is two terminals,
but many think only of 'Rectifier'.

In article ,
says...

Whatever it is, I believe that quite possibly by now the OP has been committed to a sanitarium.

Big device between an active device and active components!...

I think this all started with the intention of talking about
active components. But I see it has spread out of control like
syphilis.

Jamie

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:54:48 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku
wrote:

On 2014-01-25, Jerry Peters wrote:
dave wrote:
On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 01/23/2014 06:45 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


It is not a switch or a valve.


It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out.
Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every
store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and
compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency
signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How can
a passive diode do that?


Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will
oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device. An
active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. As
in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is what
we are going for.


An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.

So a relay is an active device?

We should probably apply the "active" or "passive" designation to circuits
rather than devices. When we say that a device is active, it means that the
only sensible way of using it is in the role where it provides an active
circuit.

A passive circuit is one in which the energy source for driving the output
signals is derived from the input signals, rather than from some auxiliary
power supply.

Anything else is an active circuit.

Because the energy for driving outputs is derived from inputs in a passive
device, a passive device can never amplify power; though if it contains
inductors, it can step voltage up or down and thereby modify impedance.

A logic inverter circuit built on a relay is definitely active. Justification:
the device produces an output which is based on the input, but which does not
draw energy from the input at all to power the output. Power is applied to the
switch, in series with a load resistor. This energy source is not considered
an input signal.

If the relay's switch is used to pass through or cut off a signal (say as part
of a multiplexer), then we can regard it as passive. When the signal passes
through the relay, it does so without amplification: the output is powered by
the input. The next and previous device are not isolated from each other's
impedances in any way by the relay; it is transparent. Moreover, the relay's
coil is powered by *its* input: the switching mechanism itself does not have
its own source of power.

(Note that by the same logic, we could argue that a FET used for signal
switching also gives rise to a passive circuit.)


And just to trip you up,what about USB to TIA 232 converters?

?-)