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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to testNiMH batteries?
I have a Panasonic DECT phone which takes AAA batteries. The ones I am using are 2-3 years old and although they always measure OK on a simple battery meter, give such pathetic call quality that I strongly suspect the have very few amps indeed. (compared to how the phone used to work). When left off the hook, the phone is dead within a day or so.
So I just bought on ebay some new NiMH ones called Rayzel (no reviews available) with an ominously anonymous light green casing. They claim to be 2100 MAH to replace the present 650MAH ones. They say they come from a place called Virginia but are scheduled to take 5 days to get a couple of hundred miles to me by USPS. Then I saw the video showing how these can apparently weigh as much as the normal ones but be filled with flour or crack or something and in fact be some poxy module a few millimeters in mass. Which, far from giving 2100Ma, gives in reality only 66Ma and looks as if it may well last as long as five minutes so long as no meaningful load is put on it. Is there any way of testing them to make sure they are what they say they are before leaving misleading positive feedback? I have no way of knowing how long the phone which is designed to be left on the hook is supposed to last when left off the hook. If I buy a very cheap battery tester, would it have no cut out circuits and put a proper constant load on the battery such that if left in place, the voltage may lower over the course of a few minutes connection? (or does that only happen when the battery is actually completely failing) I also have a Philips TSU500 remote in which I use slightly pricey Sanyo Eneloop batteries supposedly heavily quality controlled by Costco before sale.. They are now possibly as old as 6-8 months and used to last a week or so before stopping working. Now they can go from fully charged (2-3 days in a charger) to dead in 3 days. Again, I am wondering if there is any way to test them before I decide that they need replacing rather than that the TSU500 itself is chewing up batteries and needs replacing! |
#2
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
Assuming this isn't a joke...
I don't believe AAA cells can have 2100mAh capacity. So that's a problem. What ever happened to buying OEM batteries? If there's a battery store near (such as Interstate), try it. |
#3
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Amanda Riphnykhazova
wrote: I have a Panasonic DECT phone which takes AAA batteries. The ones I am using are 2-3 years old and although they always measure OK on a simple battery meter, give such pathetic call quality that I strongly suspect the have very few amps indeed. (compared to how the phone used to work). When left off the hook, the phone is dead within a day or so. So I just bought on ebay some new NiMH ones called Rayzel (no reviews available) with an ominously anonymous light green casing. They claim to be 2100 MAH to replace the present 650MAH ones. They say they come from a place called Virginia but are scheduled to take 5 days to get a couple of hundred miles to me by USPS. Then I saw the video showing how these can apparently weigh as much as the normal ones but be filled with flour or crack or something and in fact be some poxy module a few millimeters in mass. Which, far from giving 2100Ma, gives in reality only 66Ma and looks as if it may well last as long as five minutes so long as no meaningful load is put on it. Is there any way of testing them to make sure they are what they say they are before leaving misleading positive feedback? I have no way of knowing how long the phone which is designed to be left on the hook is supposed to last when left off the hook. If I buy a very cheap battery tester, would it have no cut out circuits and put a proper constant load on the battery such that if left in place, the voltage may lower over the course of a few minutes connection? (or does that only happen when the battery is actually completely failing) I also have a Philips TSU500 remote in which I use slightly pricey Sanyo Eneloop batteries supposedly heavily quality controlled by Costco before sale. They are now possibly as old as 6-8 months and used to last a week or so before stopping working. Now they can go from fully charged (2-3 days in a charger) to dead in 3 days. Again, I am wondering if there is any way to test them before I decide that they need replacing rather than that the TSU500 itself is chewing up batteries and needs replacing! I wouldn't be surprised if the video is a practical joke. A friend of mine sent me a link that showed that what is inside the large 6 volt lantern batteries are just a whole bunch of AA batteries. I told him that the video was crap. He didn't believe me and went out and bought one of these batteries and pried the bottom off. Just like I told him there were 4 large cells in the thing, not a whole bunch of AA cells. He did call me to tell me I was right and say he felt pretty silly. Eric |
#4
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:14:32 PM UTC-4, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Assuming this isn't a joke... I suppose it may well be a joke, look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA and you decide: It even warns viewers off the seller and says they refused to refund ALL of the money paid. I don't believe AAA cells can have 2100mAh capacity. So that's a problem. Yes, that occurred to me as well when I saw the video but there seem to be lots of them on ebay and I wondered what they really were and how to test them if they do work on arrival and aren't completely fake. There IS a major leap of faith between something marked 650MAH and an offer of 2100 MAH What ever happened to buying OEM batteries? If there's a battery store near (such as Interstate), try it. I didnt know that Interstate made AAA batteries but how do they compare in price to the ones from Virginia on ebay? Assuming the ones arent just useless |
#5
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
"Amanda Riphnykhazova" wrote in message
... The following aren't cheap, but at least they're from a major manufacturer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Panason...ht_1345wt_1382 You might also try Thomas Distributing. I buy all my rechargeables from them. http://www.thomasdistributing.com |
#6
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
Thomas Distributing show that they distribute Eneloop NiMH batteries which I wonder about in OP.
I did check with Panasonic and they say they recommend NiMH so I assume I shouldnt be using NiCAD and cant recharge Lithium ones. So how far can I push the milliamps realistically? And, again, is there any way of testing whatever I do end up with please? I suppose I can just charge them along with the present batteries and leave them next to each other for a few days and see how long they last before they die. But that says nothing about how long any batteries I get are going to LAST? |
#7
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
Now I have seen a report that for cordless phones, you should use special low discharge batteries and that ordinary NiMH ones will just die if left off the base So i am not sure I can even perform the test I thought obvious! The low discharge ones say they are something over 900MAH.
There seem to be lots of sellers specifically targeting their sales towards Panasonic cordless phones. I wonder if there is any difference or if "low discharge" means anything (in practical terms)? |
#8
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
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#9
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
"Amanda Riphnykhazova" Now I have seen a report that for cordless phones, you should use special low discharge batteries and that ordinary NiMH ones will just die if left off the base ** Total ********. There seem to be lots of sellers specifically targeting their sales towards Panasonic cordless phones. I wonder if there is any difference or if "low discharge" means anything (in practical terms)? ** None. Cordless phones are normally left on constant charge. Low discharge cells ( ie Eneloop) have advantage when the device is left with no use or charge for months on end. Like a digital camera or torch often is. ..... Phil |
#10
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
Yeah, interestingly low discharge is also described as low self-discharge, indicating that they will discharge THEMSELVES if left alone and turned off.."Like a digital camera or torch often is" It doesnt seem to say anything about whether they will discharge any more than other batteries if left 'on' in a working phone. Although the description implies it strongly, doesn't it! |
#11
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
"Amanda Riphnykhazova" wrote in message
... There seem to be lots of sellers specifically targeting their sales towards Panasonic cordless phones. I wonder if there is any difference or if "low discharge" means anything (in practical terms)? It doesn't, because you're presumably leaving the 'phone on the charger base when it's not in use. I've owned cordless phones with both nicad and NiMH batteries, and had no problems with either. You're worrying about something of no importance. |
#12
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
"Amanda Riphnykhazova" wrote in message
... When in use, a battery discharges according to how much current is drawn. Whether it's a low-self-discharge battery doesn't matter -- unless you're drawing a tiny bit of current over a long time. Common sense. |
#13
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
"Amanda Riphnykhazova" Yeah, interestingly low discharge is also described as low self-discharge, indicating that they will discharge THEMSELVES if left alone and turned off. ** Low self discharge implies the opposite. The self discharge of regular NiMH cells is quite high compared to Alkaline cells - leave them for a few weeks to a couple of months and most of the energy is gone. IIFC, Eneloop claim up to 12 months with 80% retention. Neither of which has any bearing when used with cordless phones. ..... Phil |
#14
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 10:52:42 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: ** Ever pried open a 9V alkaline battery? There are six cells inside ( LR61s) smaller than AAAA. ... Phil Sure. No problem. Just short the terminals and the internals will rapidly be revealed: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-01.jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-02.jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-03.jpg Well, to be honest, the battery was probably a counterfeit. Mo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9V_innards_AAAA_removal-1.jpg Note that a cell battery (LR8D425) is the same diameter as an LR61 cell, but is 3.5 mm longer. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#15
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Amanda Riphnykhazova
wrote: Is there any way of testing them to make sure they are what they say they are before leaving misleading positive feedback? Yes. I use a West Mountain Radio CBA-II analyzer: http://www.westmountainradio.com/product_info.php?products_id=cba4 http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/NiMH/cba-II.jpg An NiMH cell discharge graph will look something like this: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/NiMH/Duracelll-NiMH-2050.jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/NiMH/Energizer-NiMH-2300.jpg The 2300 ma-hr cell was only good for 2000 ma-hr. However, there's a catch. I ran the test with a rather fast high current 1C discharge at 2.0 and 2.3 amps respectively. You'll get results closer to the advertised capacity if you use C/10 discharge rate. However, if you really want to impress your friends and accomplises, run it at C/100 discharge rate, and you'll get some really impressive capacity numbers. I also have a Philips TSU500 remote in which I use slightly pricey Sanyo Eneloop batteries supposedly heavily quality controlled by Costco before sale. They are now possibly as old as 6-8 months and used to last a week or so before stopping working. Now they can go from fully charged (2-3 days in a charger) to dead in 3 days. Again, I am wondering if there is any way to test them before I decide that they need replacing rather than that the TSU500 itself is chewing up batteries and needs replacing! Eneloop are good batteries. There are competative low self-discharge batteries that are just as good if you want to save money. The catch is that Eneloop batteries do not like to be fast charged. Sanyo sells a slow charger that works just fine. http://www.eneloop.info/eneloop-products/faqs/faqs-chargers.html Though it is possible to charge an eneloop battery in a "Quick Charger", it is not recommended. We recommend charging eneloop batteries in a NiMh charger that is 2 hours or more. Charging eneloop batteries in a "Quick Charger" can reduce the overall life of the battery. My guess(tm) is that you used a fast charger, and killed the cells. Also, note that there are different types of Eneloop cells: 1500 times rechargeable eneloop battery (2nd generation) has a dark gray cover around the positive electrode and a crown logo on the side. HR-3UTGA (AA) / HR-4UTGA (AAA). 1000 times rechargeable eneloop battery (1st generation) has a white cover around the positive electrode and there isn't a crown logo on the side. HR-3UTG (AA) / HR-4UTG (AAA). -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#16
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
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#17
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
In article ,
Amanda Riphnykhazova wrote: Thomas Distributing show that they distribute Eneloop NiMH batteries which I wonder about in OP. I did check with Panasonic and they say they recommend NiMH so I assume I shouldnt be using NiCAD and cant recharge Lithium ones. So how far can I push the milliamps realistically? And, again, is there any way of testing whatever I do end up with please? I suppose I can just charge them along with the present batteries and leave them next to each other for a few days and see how long they last before they die. But that says nothing about how long any batteries I get are going to LAST? Depends on how you use them. For the same chemistry, the only reasonable way to increase the mA-Hr capacity is to put more electrode inside, and that means using a thinner insulator between the plates. A thinner insulator means a higher leakage, and so a faster self-discharge. So the only way you're likely to actually *get* 2100 mA-Hr out of those cells is if you use them a lot. If what you mostly do is let the device sit around, the cells will be empty when you need them despite the higher capacity. As a personal example, when I used regular NiMH cells in a little camera I carried around "just in case", it was nearly "empty" almost every time I wanted to use it. And the spare cells I carried would be dead, too. Changing to Eneloop cells, which had a lower mA-Hr capacity, gave me a camera that was always ready to go, even after a couple or three months of sitting around. And when the in-use cells finally did go empty, the spares were still nearly full despite having been charged at the same time. Isaac |
#18
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for laymanto test NiMH batteries?
On 10/26/2013 02:14 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Assuming this isn't a joke... What ever happened to buying OEM batteries? Al Dunlap |
#19
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for laymanto test NiMH batteries?
On 10/26/2013 04:49 PM, Amanda Riphnykhazova wrote:
Now I have seen a report that for cordless phones, you should use special low discharge batteries and that ordinary NiMH ones will just die if left off the base So i am not sure I can even perform the test I thought obvious! The low discharge ones say they are something over 900MAH. There seem to be lots of sellers specifically targeting their sales towards Panasonic cordless phones. I wonder if there is any difference or if "low discharge" means anything (in practical terms)? Self-discharge is what a battery does to lose charge while just sitting there. A good LiIon loses about 10% of its charge quickly, then loses very little going forward. |
#20
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for laymanto test NiMH batteries?
On 10/26/2013 08:00 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 10:52:42 +1100, "Phil Allison" wrote: ** Ever pried open a 9V alkaline battery? There are six cells inside ( LR61s) smaller than AAAA. ... Phil Sure. No problem. Just short the terminals and the internals will rapidly be revealed: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-01.jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-02.jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/Duracell-03.jpg Well, to be honest, the battery was probably a counterfeit. Mo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9V_innards_AAAA_removal-1.jpg Note that a cell battery (LR8D425) is the same diameter as an LR61 cell, but is 3.5 mm longer. My Sennheiser Pro rep told me they don't recommend using Duracell because they don't put enough electrolyte in the cells. They now ship with Energizer. |
#21
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
WOW is this getting complicated!!!
So you cant just buy a battery and charge it? You have to differentiate between different types of NiMH charger or you will kill the battery? That is AMAZING! Especially when Costco doesnt even sell chargers for their Eneloops (mine are either light or dark blue with no explanation of what is the difference) and makes no recommendations as to charging. Not to mention, how do I figure out how to charge (for example) a Reyzel without spending a fortune on the tester? Or is it generally OK to trickle charge any battery so long as you dont mind waiting? So maybe I DO have to buy Panasonic rechargeables to work properly in a Panasonic phone, assuming there aren't fakes out there! Or possibly the trickle charge from the base may well do the trick? Oh and one other thing, I am not a troll but just checked the charger I am actually using (and dont remember when I accidentally switched) but this one IS a NiCAD!!! So I assume the Eneloops are now dead for all practical purposes. Anyway I can now stop blaming the remote controller. Can I buy some sort of aa/aaa trickle charger to do the job in future? |
#22
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 07:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Amanda Riphnykhazova
wrote: WOW is this getting complicated!!! Yep. It looks simpler if you try to understand how it all works. So you cant just buy a battery and charge it? Correct. Different chemistries want different types of charging systems, charge rates, EoC (end of charge) detection methods, etc. There's quite a bit of technology inside some chargers to guess what flavor of battery their expected to charge, but at best, it's still a guess. You have to differentiate between different types of NiMH charger or you will kill the battery? That is AMAZING! Yep. That's about it. Especially when Costco doesnt even sell chargers for their Eneloops (mine are either light or dark blue with no explanation of what is the difference) and makes no recommendations as to charging. Costco isn't exactly a full service operation. If you don't like it, or prematurely kill it for some reason, just take it back and kill some more cells. Incidentally, the pack of Eneloop batteries I purchased at Costco did include the proper charger. http://costcocouple.com/sanyo-eneloop-rechargeable-battery-combo-pack/ Not to mention, how do I figure out how to charge (for example) a Reyzel without spending a fortune on the tester? If you can determine the chemistry of the Reyzel thing, you can then determine if it will survive a fast charge, and select your battery charger accordingly. I did some Googling and couldn't find anything on a Reyzel battery. Also, a discharge tester won't show you how to test the battery. It will only show the capacity of the cell, assuming that you charged it correctly. Or is it generally OK to trickle charge any battery so long as you dont mind waiting? Well, the general idea is to: 1. Follow the manufacturers recommendations. 2. Don't overcharge 3. Don't overheat The problem is knowing when to stop charging which implies that you need to know the starting SoC. If you discharge a battery to some low reference point, and calculate how many amp-hrs you'll need to get to about 125% of full charge, you'll probably do ok with a C/10 charge. For a 2000 ma-hr cell, C/10 would be a 200 ma charge current for about 12.5 hrs. However, that's not going to happen in real life. The starting point might be half charge or even 90% charge. If you apply a C/10 charge for 12.5 hrs to one of those, you've overcharged the battery. Good chargers have EoC (end of charge) detection circuits that look for a tiny dip in voltage when the battery is fully charged. However, they can be fooled by a variety of tricks, such as trying to charge a fully charged battery. In short, you're probably ok slow charging almost any NiMH battery, as long as you don't overcharge or overheat. So maybe I DO have to buy Panasonic rechargeables to work properly in a Panasonic phone, assuming there aren't fakes out there! I have several older Panasonic cordless phones that use AAA packs. They've lasted perhaps 6 years per pack in continuous charge while the handset is in the cradle. The trick they use is that they don't charge to 100.0%. My guess(tm) is that they float charge to about 80% of full charge, and stop (based on my measurements of the terminal voltage). The charging systems seems to be designed for long battery life, at the expense of talk time. That's quite the opposite of the usual advertised battery claims, where maximum capacity and extremely fast charge times, are the norm. With NiMH in a cordless phone, if you don't fully charge, and you don't go through many charge/discharge cycles, the batteries can last nearly forever. Or possibly the trickle charge from the base may well do the trick? Trickle charge (0.05C) does not work with NiMH because the charger EoC detection mechanism doesn't work at such low levels and because NiMH just hates to be overcharged: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_nickel_metal_hydride Oh and one other thing, I am not a troll but just checked the charger I am actually using (and dont remember when I accidentally switched) but this one IS a NiCAD!!! Hard to tell what you've done here. NiCd and NiMH chargers are similar but not identical. If you were lucky and didn't overcharge the NiMH cells, you're probably ok. If the batteries became warm or hot during charging, they're probably dead. So I assume the Eneloops are now dead for all practical purposes. Anyway I can now stop blaming the remote controller. A discharge test and graph would show if there's any life left. Can I buy some sort of aa/aaa trickle charger to do the job in future? For Eneloop, you could play it safe and get the Sanyo recommended NC-MQR04 or NC-MQR06 charger. The NC-MQR06 is advertised as a "quick" charger if you consider: single AA 1.5 hrs two AA 4.0 hrs four AA 8.9 hrs to be "quick". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#23
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
I would recommend the MAHA MH-C9000 charger. It's no longer modestly priced,
but it does all sorts of stuff (such as breaking in and reconditioning), and you can set the charge current as you wish. |
#24
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman to test NiMH batteries?
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 09:34:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_nickel_metal_hydride Mo http://www.powerstream.com/NiMH.htm Read section on "Overnight Charging". Note that this doesn't mean leaving the battery on charge forever, just overnight. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#25
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Video showing heavy flour in AA batteries: any way for layman totest NiMH batteries?
Well I have tended to leave the Eneloops in the NiCAD charger, thinking that it was a NiMH charger and that it had a cut out circuit in it. For days or weeks on end.
Clearly they are dead now and I would imagine I will find that they can look as if they are charging to full (or is it just a surface charge?) but in reality they will lose all their charge quickly now even if left out of the remote. And cant be reconditioned No, they didn't come with any charger, which with no charge instructions was a bit of a mistake on the part of Costco? Incidentally, what does battery recondition mean? Does it mean feeding a short burst of 120v reverse polarity to bust up crystals or is that a myth? |
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