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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
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#2
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
Is there anyone here old enough to remember working on the Sony SL-2700 Betamax? I refurbish Beta's for resale and this one has a tough problem. The VCR works fine except for hifi audio - put in a hifi tape, and the hifi indicator lights but the sound is mute, both on the output and the VU LED's. The linear sound works fine if switched to that.
Tried swapping all boards related to audio, but got the same result, perhaps one of my substitute boards had the same problem. Any ideas? |
#3
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
I guess I'm stating the obvious, but...
If the Stereo light comes on, then the circuitry has detected the HiFi carrier. Have you tried signal-tracing the HiFi path? The carrier is omnipresent, so it shouldn't be too hard... |
#4
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:24:06 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Is there anyone here old enough to remember working on the Sony SL-2700 Betamax? I refurbish Beta's for resale and this one has a tough problem. The VCR works fine except for hifi audio - put in a hifi tape, and the hifi indicator lights but the sound is mute, both on the output and the VU LED's. The linear sound works fine if switched to that. Tried swapping all boards related to audio, but got the same result, perhaps one of my substitute boards had the same problem. Any ideas? I spent most of last week working on a Sony DVW-A500 broadcast VTR machine replacing leaky (some VERY leaky - acid puddles) electrolytic caps. The bulk of the time was troubleshooting the 7 bad traces from acid destroying the copper on the (coincidentally) audio processor board. Look for yellowish/brown 'mist' around the caps. By that time it's bad. EVERY cap I pulled had some leakage under it. A 'mist' an inch in diameter is likely to require re-constructive surgery. So far I've replaced around 100 caps in this machine, most just simply remove, clean the residue, replace and clean the flux. It gets more 'interesting' with 4 layer boards if it destroys the plated through hole. 2 layer boards are much easier. FWIW I buy thousands of caps every year for my employer(s) and am called doctor capacitor on occasion. G² |
#5
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
Tracing any signal in these VCR's is a real pain, the circuits are quite elaborate and everything is packed in here extremely tightly. Poor-quality ..PDF scans of the schematic diagrams don't help either. But if it comes to signal tracing, I suppose I'll have to.
I'll try checking some caps with an in-circuit ESR meter first though. Most bad caps I encounter in these are in high-temperature areas like the power supplies, but on rare occasions I have found bad ones where I least expected it. |
#6
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
The one thing about Sony Beta HIFIs is that they have a very zealous muting system. Another thing to remember is that each channel is processed separately, so usually any one bad component in the detectors should only affect one channel, unless it is a general failure of one of the ICs.
Find the muting circuit and disable it, you might find distorted audio which is rightly muted. (rightly muted means that between how it is decoded and the DBX expansion applied on playback, we are talking speaker blowing noise here) Unlike VHS, Beta uses the same heads for the AFM (HIFI) carriers. However the difference in frequencies means that just because you have a nice video carrier envelope, it does not necessarily follow that you have a perfect AFM carrier envelope. You could have a severe dropout during vertical retrace time and it really depends on the monitor you use whether you will see any vertical sync problems. Most TVs had abandoned the countdown circuit but if it does use that, some units could stay in synch for quite a long time between periods of valid synch. If you are using an LCD monitor, it is possible that the synch circuit is so good that it will lock onto noise, I do not know. Things have changed, there is no vertical oscillator anymore. That's where I would go on this, and I did work on Betas, in fact I still have one that works. The envelope and the muting. If nothing pans out there hopefully you can get enough info on the chipset. Then the fun part, if you need an IC or a hybrid, finding one. I have a small selection of OEM Sony parts from that era so if you find you need a proprieary part let me know. Even if I don't have it I know people in the business who might. |
#7
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:59:59 AM UTC-5, Phoena wrote:
On 05/25/2013 03:24 PM, wrote: Is there anyone here old enough to remember working on the Sony SL-2700 Betamax? I'm old enough to remember that only fags wanted to use Betamax. Yeah well first of all they want quality, second of all they can afford quality. They make good customers. They pay up and pick up their **** fast as soon as it's done, and they don't bother you with phone calls every three hours. They also won't **** your secretary. |
#8
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"Phoena" wrote in message ...
I'm old enough to remember that only fags wanted to use Betamax. Is this some sort of joke? If it is, I fail to see the humor. |
#9
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:59:59 AM UTC-3, Phoena wrote:
On 05/25/2013 03:24 PM, wrote: Is there anyone here old enough to remember working on the Sony SL-2700 Betamax? I'm old enough to remember that only fags wanted to use Betamax. If that were the case, Betamax would never have gone out of style. |
#10
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 6:38:49 PM UTC-3, wrote:
The one thing about Sony Beta HIFIs is that they have a very zealous muting system. Another thing to remember is that each channel is processed separately, so usually any one bad component in the detectors should only affect one channel, unless it is a general failure of one of the ICs. Find the muting circuit and disable it, you might find distorted audio which is rightly muted. (rightly muted means that between how it is decoded and the DBX expansion applied on playback, we are talking speaker blowing noise here) Unlike VHS, Beta uses the same heads for the AFM (HIFI) carriers. However the difference in frequencies means that just because you have a nice video carrier envelope, it does not necessarily follow that you have a perfect AFM carrier envelope. You could have a severe dropout during vertical retrace time and it really depends on the monitor you use whether you will see any vertical sync problems. Most TVs had abandoned the countdown circuit but if it does use that, some units could stay in synch for quite a long time between periods of valid synch. If you are using an LCD monitor, it is possible that the synch circuit is so good that it will lock onto noise, I do not know. Things have changed, there is no vertical oscillator anymore. That's where I would go on this, and I did work on Betas, in fact I still have one that works. The envelope and the muting. If nothing pans out there hopefully you can get enough info on the chipset. Then the fun part, if you need an IC or a hybrid, finding one. I have a small selection of OEM Sony parts from that era so if you find you need a proprieary part let me know. Even if I don't have it I know people in the business who might. This VCR was only used for a few hours and was stored for nearly 30 years, so I doubt it's an issue with worn heads. But now that I think of it, anything that sat so long unused probably will need some caps. I still use an old CRT TV with a countdown circuit, as I never really warmed up to LCD. I find older stuff like VHS tape looks terrible on LCD. Thanks for the offer on parts, if I need anything I will let you know. |
#11
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 5:43:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:59:59 AM UTC-5, Phoena wrote: On 05/25/2013 03:24 PM, wrote: Is there anyone here old enough to remember working on the Sony SL-2700 Betamax? I'm old enough to remember that only fags wanted to use Betamax. Yeah well first of all they want quality, second of all they can afford quality. They make good customers. They pay up and pick up their **** fast as soon as it's done, and they don't bother you with phone calls every three hours. They also won't **** your secretary. LOL!! Poetry Jeff, poetry.... |
#12
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
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#13
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"anything that sat so long unused probably will need some caps"
Oh quite probable. but if you intend to change every cap with marginally high ESR you are chasing your tail. The fact is that some are more critical than others. What's more the more ripple or delta current applied to each decreases it's lifespan. I a a pro and I will tell you now, DO NOT just change all the damn caps. It is a waste of time. You need to find the ones causing the problem. If you want to replace caps to restore original performance find the ones in the audio path and **** all the rest, unless they cause a problemm. There are exception, like in the PS. You take them on a case by case basis. If you just change all of them that don't read like new you will have succeeded in wasting a bunch of tie and money. So, in kooking for caps, find the muting line and everything that feeds it. It will have a feed from the servo for whenever it is switching speeds. It will have lines from both video and AFM detectors. If the video detects a loss of V sync, out goes the sound. any variance in signal level more than about 30 % at any time will trigger the muting. There are capacitors used in the muting, if they go open what happens ? It will always be muted. Did you get a print for the unit ? If you can't I have one person I can call maybe. Maybe. If you do have a PDF of it send it to me and I can probably localize the problem to some extent. |
#14
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Mon, 27 May 2013 18:10:36 +0000, Phoena
wrote: I'm not saying anything that hasn't been already posted on various websites and usenet groups and **** like that. Got it. Web sites and Usenet are ****. Good to know that. Sure, I'm not a genius True. Not even close to genius. but everything I said I had learned from legitimate trustworthy news sources. Yep. You read it on the internet, therefore it must be true. Of course, you checked sources and traced reports back to their original sources. You also must have verified the original data, verified the calculations, and run various statistical significance tests on the results. However, that's unlikely because the word "trustworthy" implies that you accept the news source without question. I find that unlikely as your rhetoric suggests that you don't trust anyone. Hint: I tend to read and listen to news sources with which I disagree. Al Jazerra, Arab News, Huffington Post, New Republic, and others. I know what supporters of my personal agenda have to offer, and don't need to read more of the same. What I want to know is what the opposition is thinking so I can understand their point of view and prepare a proper defense. Not Commie News Network or Faux News or MSNBS because you won't hear the truth on those networks because they are controlled by the same Zionist cabal that controlls the government and the banks. Right. We control banking, government, Hollywood, Las Vegas, the garment biz, the media, the FCC, and whatever else works well. Somewhere along the line, I seem to have forgotten to get rich. Oh well. Ever wonder how and why Jews became so powerful? Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates Permit me to offer an additional hint. One of the secrets to long term survival is to not tread on anyone's toes. Eventually, the shoe that you stomped on will be shoved down your throat. You seem to have missed that lesson. I'm old enough to remember the Beta vs VHS wars of the late 1970's. At the time, both VHS and Beta machines looked and worked badly because both camps were furiously rushing to make things work. If first impressions were the deciding factor, it would have been a coin toss. Sony had the market to themselves in 1975, but sky high royalties and anti-competitive measures force the rest of the industry to organize and adopt a competitive standard. What forced a decision was tape play time. VHS tapes would play much longer. Time to market was critical as both camps tried to squeeze more play time out of their products. As a result of this race, quality and reliability suffered on both sides. Since Sony was claiming their picture looked better, their general lack of quality hurt them badly. Betamax prices were also somewhat higher. Eventually, the public voted with their dollars and the winner was VHS. The superior technology doesn't always win. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#15
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
... I'm old enough to remember the Beta vs VHS wars of the late 1970's. At the time, both VHS and Beta machines looked and worked badly because both camps were furiously rushing to make things work. Absolutely untrue. I remember seeing Sony's first US Betamax, which was ensconced in a handsome console with a 19" display. The store (I think it was Luskin's) was playing a boxing match, and I was not aware that it was a recording. Most color TVs had no more than a 3MHz luminance bandwidth. Within that limitation, Beta could record and play back with only a slight loss of quality. This was a far cry from VHS, which was crap, crap, crap from the word "go". |
#16
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Most color TVs had no more than a 3MHz luminance bandwidth. Within that limitation, Beta could record and play back with only a slight loss of quality. This was a far cry from VHS, which was crap, crap, crap from the word "go". VHS took off because the European countries wanted to place quotas on VCRs. They really did not want people to own them, and even with very high taxes, they were selling well. So the VHS companies got together and decided it was better to sell NTSC VHS VCRs at a loss than it was to reduce production capacity. They limited the number of PAL or SECAM ones and no quotas were enacted. Eventually the sales of VHS outsripped BETA to the point that Sony could no longer sustain the home market and left it. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 It's Spring here in Jerusalem!!! |
#17
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"Right. We control banking, government, Hollywood, Las Vegas, the
garment biz, the media, the FCC, and whatever else works well. Somewhere along the line, I seem to have forgotten to get rich. " You have your rich just like everyone else, and they did not get rich by being nice. Are they nastier ? Probably not. Are there more per capita ? Yes. Jews and Zionists are - for lack of a better word handy - overrepresented in certain areas, some mentioned in the quote. You know why ? Partly becausae they are a bit more qualified for those positions. Morality aside, because White Man has no ****ing room to talk. I'm a White Man and I am serious. We are some of the nastiest mother****ers on the planet, but we do have soem serious competition. Zionists and Hebrews are two competely different things. They claim some blood linkage to a certain stretch of land in the middle east due to a religion. But everyone else is equal - with each other. One of my favorites is to say "You are equal" which is actually saying something quite different than "We are equal". You would be surprised at how many people out there don't catch that. But back to the official diversion here. Was Einstein a Zionist ? Was he Hebrew, Ashkenazi or what ? Does it matter ? Well he opposed the state of Israel. Even the creation of the state of Israel. Then we have Hebrews who also oppose Zionism as well as Israels existence, I forget the organization's name but the Rabbi I think is Yisroel Dovid Wiess. Both are called self hating Jews because of their views. I consider the whole lot to be a little off myself. Does that make me an anti-Semite ? Maybe. This bull**** about a God giving away someone else's land to a People chosen, but it requires blood. If your Mother is Jewish you are Jewish. Nothing foments racism in others more than **** like that. What's more I guess I am an equal opportunity anti-Semite because I think the Moslems are nuts as well. Clinging to archaic laws that are almost as bad as the ones written by Leviticus, whom I believe to have ingested some ergot or something before writing. Both Moslems and Jews circumcise their males, and whether it is at eight days or eight years. you are stil bigger than the kid and can strap him down. Or brainwash him into it. I call a spade a spade, I consider this **** crazy. You do not cut healthy bodies. It's not much better than FGM really. I've also read some peole on the subject of the nerve endings in the foreskin and it seems circumcision does actually impair sexual pleasure. Some say just as much as FGM, but I am not banking on that. People are clanish, that is a natural trait everyone tries to avoid, or conceal, except of course for what could be termed the modern Semites. Moslem and Jew alike. Apartheid type practices, looking the other way when "certain" violence occurs. Everybody does it. Now come the Jews who are generally better educated and have common sense. Greed ? Yes, just like anyone else, but I would say more in a position to exercise their greed. Admit it in yourself and forget the hate. Look, if I had a machine that would remove a dollar from everyone in this country and give it to me I would push the button. Again and again and again. And again......... There are alot of nasty mother****ers out there but there is no sense in "hating", whatever the **** that means. They are how they are and when we get to visit an alternate timeline and have their advantagesa (not Jews specifically, the upper classes)), let's just see how ****ing Mother Theresa like we all are at that time. When the last war comes, armegheddon, the final solution, pogrom or whatever happens, and we get this planet back down under a billion people, things will be right. It might however, be a bit boring. |
#18
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
Now actually ON topic.
Beta always was better than VHS. Even with all the advancement over the years, Beta stepped ahead. When SVHS used metal tape and upped the video carrier to 7 Mhz, Sony upped theirs to 8.6. An ED Beta recording is indiscernable from the original in NTSC, no matter how fgood a reciever you use, with digital COMB, wide I demod and allt that ****, you are very unlikely to percieve it, unless you know how to look for the effects of the COMB filter. Even then it isn't all that easy. That is one thing about both formats. Because of the nature of color under recording, they never upped the carrier frequency for that. They couldn't because the tapes would no longer be compatible, actually they wouldn't be anyway but the "retooling" was probably too expensive. |
#19
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
Beta always was better than VHS. Even with all the advancement over the years,
Beta stepped ahead. When SVHS used metal tape and upped the video carrier to 7 Mhz, Sony upped theirs to 8.6. An ED Beta recording is indiscernable from the original in NTSC, no matter how good a reciever you use, with digital comb, wide I demod and allt that ****, you are very unlikely to percieve it, unless you know how to look for the effects of the comb filter. Even then it isn't all that easy. My God. Somebody else who understands non-equal-bandwidth color encoding. I wanted an ED Beta machine. Good thing I couldn't afford it. |
#20
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
I have the old Sony training manuals. Like the one where they explain why the pits on a CD are ¼ of a wavelength of light. This was before CDR.
I read that, and also most of the trqaining manual for the Sony PCM-F1, the successor to the PCM-1. It had 48 Khz sampling which made it better than CD quality. I also read a book called "Principles Of Digital Audio" I think, and in it the author wrote that CDs were capable of four channel sound but it was never marketed, I guess because the quadrophinic phase was over. All this Dolby **** wasn't quite all there yet, although I do believe there were CDs during the release of THX1138 which borne the name for THX sound. Well they usaed it anyway. I bet hindsight is 20/2o and they wish they would have persued four channel CDs. Center and sub are easy, but this would be a real four channel. Years ago. Thinking logic here, that would probably half the playing time of a CD. One of the most important factors in the development of the CD was that it only be a certain diameter, so that in dash car units could be sold. Create a need and fill it. Now there is already a car. Make players and sell disks. That is how successful business works. I find it interesting sometimes to explore just why what happened. Why did Beta fail ? It didn't. It failed in the market. It was better and there is no doubt but average people didn't see the difference (if they were shown) and also wanted the longer recording time. Things were different ?, the COMB filter ? People used to watch TVs with bad CRTs and ****. Yup, the blue is gone, or the red, or the otha one. They would still watch it. you know, I wonder if that has an impact on their phyche to any measurable degree. They paint some jails pink........ |
#21
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
I read that, and also most of the trqaining manual for the Sony
PCM-F1, the successor to the PCM-1. It had 48 KHz sampling which made it better than CD quality. I'm confused. The PCM-F1 had 44.056kHz sampling when using an NTSC-format video recorder. You could choose between 14-bit and 16-bit quantization, though. In "Principles Of Digital Audio" the author wrote that CDs were capable of four channel sound but it was never marketed. CDs can have any number of channels, within the limit of how rapidly data can be read from the disk. There was a standard for four-channel recordings, in which the disk ran twice as fast and had 1/2 the two-channel playing time. Unfortunately, there was no backward compatibility -- the four-channel disks could not be played in two-channel on regular players. So they were never made. I bet hindsight is 20/20 and they wish they would have persued four- channel CDs. Center and sub are easy, but this would be a real four channel. Years ago. At least we have SACD and Blu-ray audio. I'd promoted surround sound since 1970, and had to wait 30 years until a simple, not-horribly expensive system became available (SACD). (I still have quad open-reel tapes and a deck to play them on.) One of the most-important factors in the development of the CD was that it only be a certain diameter, so that in dash car units could be sold. That wasn't the only consideration. Ease of handling and playing time were also factors. People used to watch TVs with bad CRTs and ****. Yup, the blue is gone, or the red, or the otha one. They would still watch it. Many years ago I was visiting friends in Delaware. I joined them to watch TV with some of their friends. Their set was badly adjusted. I tweaked the tracking, and they were amazed at the improvement. They thought I was some kind of genius. (I am, but not when it comes to servicing color TVs.) |
#22
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"I'm confused. The PCM-F1 had 44.056kHz sampling when using an NTSC-format
video recorder. You could choose between 14-bit and 16-bit quantization, though. " Been so damn long. It may be that the PCM-1 had that but it was dropped in the PCM-F1. I know it had a switch for better quality. It did not take more tape, but it made the recording incompatible. I kinda wondered incompatible with WHAT ? Hardly anyone had these things. But anyway, CD quality is not quite true sixteen bit, it is a bit faked and the reason for that is to get the minutes on a disk no more than the size they are. the other channels are irrelevant really, I just mentione that because not that many people know it, and they also do not know that most of the time their seven channels of sound are derived from two, or if lucky,three distinct channels, at least at the mixing board. Don't get me wrong, the mixing board can show you and demonstrate as many channels as it wants, but that does not mmean you are getting that mant channels. You cannot have 99.5 FM on one and 1220 AM on the other, it doesn't work that way beyond two channels usually. It does sometimes, for ALOT of money, but most people only think they have that. Most of them just have two channels. You can have the fanciest surround sound reciever and nineteen speakers and all these modes like hall, auditorium, Folsom prison, my niggas car, the garage, but if all you input to that reciver is left and right there are only two channels. I know full well how they are matrixed and delayed and all that **** to "create" the rest. I did it myself a long time ago actually. Those who really do run digital all the way to the amp might actually have more channels, but then not on all source material. HAHAHAHAH, you just can't win I guess. And then, even with the "trigophonic" system i threw together when I was a kid, my Ma said "I only have two ears". Now I do not do surround. I mean me. I'll put a million speakers in some asshole's house if he has the money, but for me it is strictly stereo. Two well placed speakers that sound good and the sound sounds like it is coming right from them, which it is, and the stereo imaging is in the hands of the recording engineer. And I hear it as he heard it. GTHAT is high fidelity, not this nineteen speaker unk of today. |
#23
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
wrote in message ...
Now I do not do surround. I mean me. I'll put a million speakers in some asshole's house if he has the money, but for me it is strictly stereo. Two well placed speakers that sound good and the sound sounds like it is coming right from them, which it is, and the stereo imaging is in the hands of the recording engineer. And I hear it as he heard it. THAT is high fidelity, not this nineteen speaker junk of today. You know nothing about what you talk about, either technically or aesthetically. I've been involved with surround sound for 43 years, probably longer than you've been alive. I suspect you're the sort of person who deliberately says ridiculous things just to get peoples' goats. Well, my goats will stay in their pens. At least Cliff Claven is amusing. |
#24
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
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#25
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Tue, 28 May 2013 09:35:14 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . I'm old enough to remember the Beta vs VHS wars of the late 1970's. At the time, both VHS and Beta machines looked and worked badly because both camps were furiously rushing to make things work. Absolutely untrue. I remember seeing Sony's first US Betamax, which was ensconced in a handsome console with a 19" display. The store (I think it was Luskin's) was playing a boxing match, and I was not aware that it was a recording. SL-6200 perhaps? http://www.betainfoguide.net/Pix.htm I've never seen one. I will confess to not being an expert on video quality. I also didn't care much for TV in any form. However, the lady friend dragged home a brand new Betamax SL-8200(?) and assigned me the task of setting it up and making it play. I'm not sure of the model number but I do recall it was a top loader. It worked fairly well for about a month. Then, things started to fail. I don't recall the exact failures. Rather than tinker with it, we sent it to the authorized repair center (initially under warranty). It returned functional, but with a deteriorated picture. After about 3 additional repairs and no improvements, we parked it in the garage. I then bought her a no-name cheap VCR at the local department store. As I recall, it was about half the price of the Sony. It lasted about a year before it totally died. When we parted ways, she took both with her. It was 15 years later before I bought another TV. I never did a side by side comparison between VHS and Beta, so I can't really be sure that Beta is really better. As I recall, I didn't see much difference. My uninformed impression was that both were mechanical nightmares, that were easily jammed and broken by mishandling and bad tapes. Perhaps if the VCR and TV were maintained to peak performance, Betamax might have shown it's superiority, but with the poor lifetime and generally miserable picture that I experienced, I suspect that "normal" operation would not have shown much difference. Most color TVs had no more than a 3MHz luminance bandwidth. Within that limitation, Beta could record and play back with only a slight loss of quality. This was a far cry from VHS, which was crap, crap, crap from the word "go". Like I said, the superior technology doesn't always win. Sony may have had the edge in picture quality, but what the GUM (great unwashed masses) wanted was long play, and cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, and cheaper. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#26
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
William Sommerwerck wrote:
wrote in message ... Now I do not do surround. I mean me. I'll put a million speakers in some asshole's house if he has the money, but for me it is strictly stereo. Two well placed speakers that sound good and the sound sounds like it is coming right from them, which it is, and the stereo imaging is in the hands of the recording engineer. And I hear it as he heard it. THAT is high fidelity, not this nineteen speaker junk of today. You know nothing about what you talk about, either technically or aesthetically. I've been involved with surround sound for 43 years, probably longer than you've been alive. I suspect you're the sort of person who deliberately says ridiculous things just to get peoples' goats. Well, my goats will stay in their pens. At least Cliff Claven is amusing. the my niggas car part was funny. I noticed the audio drivers on most computers have such silly modes, some of which are completely horrible, like "wide stereo" or something similar. As for real surround systems in the home, I have a fairly old 5 channel system. To be honest, yeah, there's at least 4 idle speakers most of the time. Sometimes something explodes, and there's some noise behind you, and some movies have the ugly CGI intro from the releasing company that might wake up all speakers for a few seconds. I'm usually more startled not by the sounds, but by the completely random effects they'll mix in surround, and only at random points in a movie. The movie folks do a really half assed job with surround sound is the short version of the story. If fuses blew on the amp, I'd not be in a hurry to start replacing them. I'd probably disable channels in the surround decoder. |
#27
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
I never did a side by side comparison between VHS and Beta,
so I can't really be sure that Beta is really better. As I recall, I didn't see much difference. I hope the following doesn't sound unduly ad hominem. However, the differences are plain. 1 Betamax has more-stable tape motion. Without TBC, VHS has enough jitter to produce a sometime-ragged-looking picture. 2 Betamax appears to have slightly better luminance /and/ chroma bandwidth. 3 Sony's refusal to license its polarity-inversion chrominance-recording system forced JVC to use a quadrature system, which badly degraded color fidelity. If you want conclusive proof, look for an article in one of the video mags (sorry, I don't remember which or when) where a source was repeatedly dubbed. Betamax held up for three or four dubs. VHS fell apart very quickly. Betamax represents a "reasonable" compromise for a consumer product. I consider myself a critical viewer, but I could watch Beta tapes without getting unduly upset. VHS was another matter. |
#28
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message ...
The movie folks do a really half assed job with surround sound is the short version of the story. That might be true. But I've spent many years listening to orchestral recordings enhanced with surround -- either from the recording itself, or a hall synthesizer -- and the improvement is huge. Circa 1980, I had a really high-quality quad system, with Lux electronics and Infinity speakers. People -- including a hi-fi dealer -- said "I don't like quad, but I like your system". |
#29
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:28:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: If fuses blew on the amp, I'd not be in a hurry to start replacing them. I'd probably disable channels in the surround decoder. Chuckle. I have an old Heathkit AA-2010 quad channel amplifier. http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/ca.html?ca=23000 I'm down to one channel now, as the other three have blown up over the years. When the last channel dies, I'll probably fix it and start over. My ears are somewhat screwed up, so quad sound never did anything for me. In the early 1970's, I attened an AES (Audio Engineering Society) convention, where the hot topic was quadraphonic everything. I tried on quad earphones and heard nothing interesting. I listened to a serious discussion between "experts" over whether the listener wants concert hall realism, which meant sitting in front of the orchestra in stereo, or whether he wants to be "immersed" in the sound, which meant sitting in the middle of the orchestra in quad. Meanwhile, the movie theaters were having a bit of a problem with quad sound, which tended to produce dead spots. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#30
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On Tue, 28 May 2013 18:34:12 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: There was a standard for four-channel recordings, in which the disk ran twice as fast and had 1/2 the two-channel playing time. Unfortunately, there was no backward compatibility -- the four-channel disks could not be played in two-channel on regular players. So they were never made. It was dropped in the IEC specification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-channel_compact_disc_digital_audio I may have told this story before... I was working for Intech in Santa Clara during the 1970's. There were several divisions under one roof, including one that made high end A/D and D/A converters. Sony was using Intech converters in their recorders and parked a small team of engineers in the building to do who knows what with the converters. Intech catalogs were loose leaf pages in a red ring binder. I still have a few floating around. The red ring binders were everywhere and apparently, the Sony people used them for collecting their data and test results. It eventually became the "red book". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#31
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"You know nothing about what you talk about, either technically or
aesthetically. I've been involved with surround sound for 43 years, probably longer than you've been alive. ..." Where ? I'm 52 and the only thing we had here 40 years ago that resembled surround was quadrophonic. Movies weren't even in stereo. I still have a Marantz CD4 decoder that I've used to transcribe vinyl to digital. There is no carrier but it is a damn good phono preamp. When I was a kid I discovered something, that when you connect a speaker between the two hots (+ or red) of an amp you get the difference signal. That is how the elcheapo method worked actually to get the rear channels but they used a resistor to common to allow some of the L+R, but only a portion of it. This does not work with amps that run the two channels out of phase, but those are kinda rare. Now they use OP AMPs pretty much for the basic surround. Digital delay is added for the effects like "hall", "auditorium" and so forth. It is all in a chip but if you look back in the prints of older equipment that used discrete components you can figure it out. Also, along came a guy named Bob Carver who tried to do some tricks with digital delay and called it sonic holography. that baby was supposed to enhance the stereo image by sending a "null echo" for lack of a better term, to the opposite speaker. IIRC you were supposed to have them a certain distance apart for this "magic" to work properly. All junk as far as I am concerned. That is an opinion. In movies, the effects and ambience are excessive to the point wherte you can hardly understand the dialogue and you have to crank it to hear it, and then a car blows up or something and it happens to be three AM. This annoys enough people that the TV manufacturers started equipping TVs with audio compressors, calling it "Smart Sound" or "Level Sound" or a few other names. If you lived in Europe or something 40 years ago maybe you had surround sound there, I have no way of knowing. All I know is that here in the US, the TV news has more dynamic range than the supposedly high fidelity FM radio. That's not so good either. We modulate at four times the level of European stations, why ? Also look at the difference in the European version and the US one of Golden Earring - Moontan. The US version has the grooves much more modulated. Why ? Cheap turntables. Signal to noise ration is easier to deal with when things are LOUD, in fact something like that is stated in the original explanation of how Dolby noise reduction works. (or worked, I think they just make surround chips now) The sheeple will actually buy an amp with 5 % more power for alot more money with all other things being equal. Seriously, you will not notice the difference between 110 watts and 120 watts if all other specs are equal. We know that. Marketing knows that. Alot of the market does not know that so guess what they sell. Except for the PC that feeds everything now, I am not really interested in audio equipment less than 20 years old. Older even. There are some exceptions, I might like a pair of Martin Logans or something like that, but those are not at Walmart. They may be well worth the money but I will not spend that much unless I hit the lottery, and I don't play because it's a sucker bet. Maybe I'm an old fuddy duddy. I see an RJ45 on an amplifier and I say to myself "Why ?". do we really need this **** ? And to me, really it doesn't sound better. You still don't see the THD rating on mosat speakers, you know why ? Because then peole might figure out paying twice as much for an equal power amp with 0.003 % THD instead of 0.005 % is a waste of money because most speakers hit 1 % even at one watt. Shhh, don't tell. You made a mistake. I said I think stereo is it, and all this surround **** is junk and you failed to realize that is an opinion. That is my opinion, absolutely. These days the only TV or movies I watch is on the PC. I have the TV output and it's hooked up to an amp. I WISH that amp has a mono selector. It actually does, but becasue I use the tape monitor in case I want to rip analog to the PC, the mono button does not work. Luckily most of the stuff I watch is ono anyway, just PLEEEEEZE do not try to ****ing enhance is or give it fake stereo. Although they did remix some of the Star Trez TOS, but it seems they only did the effects and left the dialogue alone. Thank Peter Pan for that much. |
#32
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"You know nothing about what you talk about, either technically or
aesthetically. I've been involved with surround sound for 43 years, probably longer than you've been alive. ..." I've snipped correct or generally correct statements. When I was a kid I discovered something, that when you connect a speaker between the two hots (+ or red) of an amp you get the difference signal. That is how the el cheapo method worked actually to get the rear channels but they used a resistor to common to allow some of the L+R, but only a portion of it. This does not work with amps that run the two channels out of phase, but those are kinda rare. This is called DynaQuad. It was first officially proposed by David Hafler. The difference signal has a higher ratio of reflected-to-direct sound, so with the speakers to the sides or rear, there is an enhancement of ambience. Now they use OP AMPs pretty much for the basic surround. Actually, matrixed surround is handled by DSP. Digital delay is added for the effects like "hall", "auditorium" and so forth. It is all in a chip but if you look back in the prints of older equipment that used discrete components you can figure it out. Figure out what? Along came a guy named Bob Carver who tried to do some tricks with digital delay and called it sonic holography. that baby was supposed to enhance the stereo image by sending a "null echo" for lack of a better term, to the opposite speaker. IIRC you were supposed to have them a certain distance apart for this "magic" to work properly. Sonic Holography did not use digital processing. I had one of them, and with my own live recordings, the results were much closer to what I heard at the mikes. All junk as far as I am concerned. That is an opinion. In movies, the effects and ambience are excessive to the point wherte you can hardly understand the dialogue and you have to crank it to hear it, and then a car blows up or something and it happens to be three AM. This annoys enough people that the TV manufacturers started equipping TVs with audio compressors, calling it "Smart Sound" or "Level Sound" or a few other names. Not a valid opinion. When surround is used to record or synthesize hall ambience, it is a huge improvement. You made a mistake. I said I think stereo is it, and all this surround **** is junk and you failed to realize that is an opinion. That is my opinion, absolutely. It might be an opinion, but it is verifiably an invalid opinion. Anyone who's heard good surround knows otherwise -- because surround brings you significantly closer to what you hear at a live performance. |
#33
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On 5/29/2013 5:43 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"You know nothing about what you talk about, either technically or aesthetically. I've been involved with surround sound for 43 years, probably longer than you've been alive. ..." I've snipped correct or generally correct statements. When I was a kid I discovered something, that when you connect a speaker between the two hots (+ or red) of an amp you get the difference signal. That is how the el cheapo method worked actually to get the rear channels but they used a resistor to common to allow some of the L+R, but only a portion of it. This does not work with amps that run the two channels out of phase, but those are kinda rare. This is called DynaQuad. It was first officially proposed by David Hafler. The difference signal has a higher ratio of reflected-to-direct sound, so with the speakers to the sides or rear, there is an enhancement of ambience. Now they use OP AMPs pretty much for the basic surround. Actually, matrixed surround is handled by DSP. Digital delay is added for the effects like "hall", "auditorium" and so forth. It is all in a chip but if you look back in the prints of older equipment that used discrete components you can figure it out. Figure out what? Along came a guy named Bob Carver who tried to do some tricks with digital delay and called it sonic holography. that baby was supposed to enhance the stereo image by sending a "null echo" for lack of a better term, to the opposite speaker. IIRC you were supposed to have them a certain distance apart for this "magic" to work properly. Sonic Holography did not use digital processing. I had one of them, and with my own live recordings, the results were much closer to what I heard at the mikes. All junk as far as I am concerned. That is an opinion. In movies, the effects and ambience are excessive to the point wherte you can hardly understand the dialogue and you have to crank it to hear it, and then a car blows up or something and it happens to be three AM. This annoys enough people that the TV manufacturers started equipping TVs with audio compressors, calling it "Smart Sound" or "Level Sound" or a few other names. Not a valid opinion. When surround is used to record or synthesize hall ambience, it is a huge improvement. You made a mistake. I said I think stereo is it, and all this surround **** is junk and you failed to realize that is an opinion. That is my opinion, absolutely. It might be an opinion, but it is verifiably an invalid opinion. Anyone who's heard good surround knows otherwise -- because surround brings you significantly closer to what you hear at a live performance. Let me strongly affirm William Sommerwerck's comment above. I have also lived in the world of Carver Sonic Holography (or4iginal and 2 subsequent redesigned and improved versions) as well as many discrete true 4 channel surround sound systems on open reel, CD4/Shibata LPs, derived surround from Dynaquad, CBS SQ Quad, Dolby, Ambisonics, and synthesized surround from Advent SoundSpace, , Yamaha DSPs, Sound Concepts bucket brigade CCD processor, and quite a few others. Used with discretion these have profoundly improved the reconstruction of a very credible and most enjoyable sound field vastly superior to the collapsed image which remains when only the front system is employed without surround. |
#34
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
On 5/29/2013 12:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:28:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: If fuses blew on the amp, I'd not be in a hurry to start replacing them. I'd probably disable channels in the surround decoder. Chuckle. I have an old Heathkit AA-2010 quad channel amplifier. http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/ca.html?ca=23000 I'm down to one channel now, as the other three have blown up over the years. When the last channel dies, I'll probably fix it and start over. My ears are somewhat screwed up, so quad sound never did anything for me. In the early 1970's, I attened an AES (Audio Engineering Society) convention, where the hot topic was quadraphonic everything. I tried on quad earphones and heard nothing interesting. I listened to a serious discussion between "experts" over whether the listener wants concert hall realism, which meant sitting in front of the orchestra in stereo, or whether he wants to be "immersed" in the sound, which meant sitting in the middle of the orchestra in quad. Meanwhile, the movie theaters were having a bit of a problem with quad sound, which tended to produce dead spots. Subsequent to the original release of quad headphones, in the late 60s, considerable research was done on ear / brain localization and spatial imaging, funded in part by the Air Force / DARPA (to facilitate heads up display direction of arrival cues for pilots being fired upon from 360 degrees in azimuth). Some seminal work was done at the University of Darmstadt, Germany, the prior art upon which Bob Carver's original "sonic hologram' patent was granted. The technical significance of the findings was the intra-aural spacing of the typical human and the resulting time difference of arrival from the earlier to the later ear, combined with the comb filter created by the external ear's ridge structure (pinnae) allowed the brain to build a mental map of where things arrived from acoustically. A given angle of arrival in azimuth and elevation at a given frequency would have a learned interpretation of where it arose from. This was in addition to the reverb decay times and spectra influencing / defining the enclosed space in which the audio was captured / simulated. The bottom line was that headset design could not inherently replicate the intra-aural delays and especially the comb filter results accurately for all individuals, since each of us has a unique set of parameters. Partially successful alternatives such as binaural recording and playback have overcome this to some extent but not fully. |
#35
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"He was offered the first Presidency of the State of Israel and turned it down. "
I am aware of that. I think he refused it on principle, but really I think he should have taken the job. Did Einstein's principles make him an anti-Semite ? "You should look up the source of the word Palestine and Palestinian." I did some time ago but forgot, the Romans ? I know they (Palestinians) didn't name it themselves. Does that negate any and all sovereignty claims ? Apparently in some peolle's eyes it does. " but it requires blood. If your Mother is Jewish you are Jewish. Well, more bullshirt. You are a raving antisemite and a total ignoramus. " If you think an ad honinem attack is going to ruffle me forget it. I have been called worse. I have also been beaten to a pulp by three guys and shot in the face, so the namecalling is laughable. Sticks and stones, Got any ? However, regardless your demeanor here I will probably have to admit to being somewhat anti-Semmitic. that is strictly based on their adhesion to a religion that is detrimental to their well being, IN MY OPINION. Obviously they do not agree. "They are exempt from mandatory army service, but there are plenty of them who have served. " In the meantime there are Israeli Jews sitting in jail for refusing to serve in the IDF on moral grounds. I do not want to get into atrocities and kill ratio here, but nobody's right if everybody's wrong. It is a ****ing mess in the territories and both sides keep making it worse. "Well, that's it. I guess you are not a Christian either, because Jesus was born, raised, and died a Jew, and he went around preaching Judaism. " That is correct. I do have respect for Christ's ideals and I really believe that if everyone lived by His tenets (capitalisation for respectful purposes only), the world would be a wonderful place, near Utopia. He was one of the greatest prophets who ever lived, but that gives Him no right to forgive those who hurt ME. I also believe that there is nothing supernatural. In conventional terms that means no heaven or hell. There is probably some sort of afterlife but you are not meeting your ancestors. They are your ancestors because of a corporeal relationship, which is terminated upon death of the body. What little spark of whatever in the mind that developed during corporeal life may well live on, but I think as more of a part of a huge collective. But you are not John Doe. John is what your Parents named you, Doe indicates paternity (or it did when things worked right). When you are dead, all of that is gone. I also respect that there is wisdom in the Bible. The main one who I think was a nuts is Leviticus. Again, not everyone agrees. But no book holds me laws, even the government's. "The ones that have better educations do so because their families raised them that way" Which is more prevalent among them than those who just sit their kids in front of the TV. I had no video games nor TV in my room until I was a teenager. I had no phone. I had no nothing almost - except books. Jews are smarter than many in the US on average because they pay attention to life. At least the ones I know or have known. This is not exclusive, a friend of mine is not Jewish but his son is making $130,000 a year before hitting thirty years old. It's a matter of life experience when young and I participated in it among others. When you grow up among studious people, guess what. I want everyone to understand, my anti-Semitism, if it is even such, only has to do with certain things. The people themselves, Moslem or Judaic, if they do not want to kill the infidels (which would be me) we can get along. The government of Israel is a different story. I swear they are the only worse government in the world worse than than ours. |
#36
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:28:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: If fuses blew on the amp, I'd not be in a hurry to start replacing them. I'd probably disable channels in the surround decoder. Chuckle. I have an old Heathkit AA-2010 quad channel amplifier. http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/ca.html?ca=23000 I'm down to one channel now, as the other three have blown up over the years. When the last channel dies, I'll probably fix it and start over. My ears are somewhat screwed up, so quad sound never did anything for me. In the early 1970's, I attened an AES (Audio Engineering Society) convention, where the hot topic was quadraphonic everything. I tried on quad earphones and heard nothing interesting. I listened to a serious discussion between "experts" over whether the listener wants concert hall realism, which meant sitting in front of the orchestra in stereo, or whether he wants to be "immersed" in the sound, which meant sitting in the middle of the orchestra in quad. Meanwhile, the movie theaters were having a bit of a problem with quad sound, which tended to produce dead spots. That allied tuner reminded me of a cheap receiver I once had. Same look. I got a Hughes SRS unit when they started selling it. I used to use it for tv. Had some issue about volume changes on sports when I didn't need extra sound effects. Almost forgot about it. Hopefully I'll get my work room finished where I can see everything I got .. Greg |
#37
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
William Sommerwerck wrote: I never did a side by side comparison between VHS and Beta, so I can't really be sure that Beta is really better. As I recall, I didn't see much difference. I hope the following doesn't sound unduly ad hominem. However, the differences are plain. 1 Betamax has more-stable tape motion. Without TBC, VHS has enough jitter to produce a sometime-ragged-looking picture. 2 Betamax appears to have slightly better luminance /and/ chroma bandwidth. 3 Sony's refusal to license its polarity-inversion chrominance-recording system forced JVC to use a quadrature system, which badly degraded color fidelity. If you want conclusive proof, look for an article in one of the video mags (sorry, I don't remember which or when) where a source was repeatedly dubbed. Betamax held up for three or four dubs. VHS fell apart very quickly. Betamax represents a "reasonable" compromise for a consumer product. I consider myself a critical viewer, but I could watch Beta tapes without getting unduly upset. VHS was another matter. You do know that Ampex started the development of VHS before they sold out to a consortium of japanese companies to raise much needed funds for their financial survival? Ampex wanted to make a cheap, scaled down version of their existing 1% 2" tape systems, to sell at an affordable price for consumers but ran into cash flow problems. Sears and a couple others attempted to develop and market Cartrivision, another failed system. The cartridge was huge, and rental tapes couldn't be rewound. They had to be put in a separate machine at the video store to be rewound before being rented again. That made them so unwieldy that no one want ed to handle them. Only blanks could be recorded, & played, after being rewound on a home machine. Avco was the company doing the development, at the site of a former W.W.II Crosley plant on Glendale-Milford Road in Cincinnati, Ohio. The testbeds were still sitting in the warehouse when it became the original location for Cincinnati Electronics. The Betamax machines I worked on treated the tape a lot worse than VHS. Some had the tape sliding against itself to simplify they loading and unloading. Having seen both in use in a broadcast station, the cheap VHS was much better than any beta, other than the overpriced ENG version that only got 20 minutes per tape. All Sony machines needed a TBC to meet FCC requirements, but I could feed a $79 VHS tape into our Vital Industries Squeezezoom and get a picture that was stable enough to broadcast. We had a complete three deck 1" sony video editing suite, each with a TBC. The LaCarte video automation system had 12 sony U-matic players and a 'Striper' to record programs and read the time codes for the automation. That system had another TBC. We used a framestore to synchronize live video from the studio, rather than depend on not losing the feed over the 7 GHz STL. At times we used a second framestore to be able to crossfade between live feeds from two studios, in different cities. |
#38
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
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#39
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
"All Sony machines needed a TBC to meet
FCC requirements, but I could feed a $79 VHS tape into our Vital Industries Squeezezoom and get a picture that was stable enough to broadcast. " I find that extremely hard to believe. I do believe it about the Sonys because of tape drag, but I find it hard to believe they let you broadcast right out of a VHS. You sure there might not have been another TBC downsteam ? Some Sony pro equipment just incorporated the TBC, did someone turn it off or something ? |
#40
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Sony SL-2700 Betamax
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