I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another looking
for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now known
as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't seen
anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the length
of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are marked
NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under the skin
(also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no 4/3A
size.

Dizzy I tellya.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............

On 5/1/2013 4:35 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now
known as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't
seen anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the
length of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are
marked NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under
the skin (also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they
measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no
4/3A size.

Dizzy I tellya.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............
Methinks you protest too much.
What is it about your application that can't tolerate a battery being
..2% too short?

Ever measured the value of a resistor?
How about the diameter of a bolt.
Or the amount of coffee in a tin.

Funny story.
Back in the old days when a tin of tuna was marked 6oz.,
I drained the water and weighed the net weight.
Then I bitched at ChickenOfTheSea. They gave me the
runaround, but once they decided that I was willing to
hold as long as it takes, the came back with the admission
that there was typically 3.5oz. of tuna in the can.
And they saw no problem with that.

Hey, it's OK to say you don't know (but it's not required).

What I asked is if there are any size standards, and where they might be..
because I can't find 'em.

Like I mentioned, this was referring to not being able to find accurate,
published (available to anyone, even you) lengths of common cells.

The reason for asking was to try to determine if there is a shorter version
of the high capacity cells available.

The arrangement of the 12 cells in the pack is 3 "sticks" (end-to-end) of 4
cells each.
The difference it makes is that the 4/3A cells I bought are longer, not
shorter, and I don't need a precision caliper to see the sticks are ~1/4"
longer.
Is that the .2% you were harping about?

The difference is not modifying a ruggedized military grade xenon arc lamp
if I can discover that there may be a cell size available, that I don't know
about.

You're free to price a 22-1002 NIMH battery pack at Xenonics or military
supply source to see if it might be more economical to rebuild packs with
fresh, high capacity cells.

I didn't have the used battery pack to examine earlier because I couldn't
find any new or used ones that were reasonably priced.. I half expected
there to be some consistency in cell sizes.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2013 4:35 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now
known as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't
seen anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the
length of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are
marked NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under
the skin (also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they
measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no
4/3A size.

Dizzy I tellya.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............
Methinks you protest too much.
What is it about your application that can't tolerate a battery being .2%
too short?

Ever measured the value of a resistor?
How about the diameter of a bolt.
Or the amount of coffee in a tin.

Funny story.
Back in the old days when a tin of tuna was marked 6oz.,
I drained the water and weighed the net weight.
Then I bitched at ChickenOfTheSea. They gave me the
runaround, but once they decided that I was willing to
hold as long as it takes, the came back with the admission
that there was typically 3.5oz. of tuna in the can.
And they saw no problem with that.

On 01.05.2013 13:35, Wild_Bill wrote:
I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now
known as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't
seen anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the
length of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are
marked NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under
the skin (also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they
measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no
4/3A size.

Dizzy I tellya.

Almost all battery powered devices has springs in the battery holders.
Why do you think the springs are for?

I thing you are hunting ghosts.

On 5/1/2013 1:23 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
Hey, it's OK to say you don't know (but it's not required).

What I asked is if there are any size standards, and where they might
be.. because I can't find 'em.

Like I mentioned, this was referring to not being able to find accurate,
published (available to anyone, even you) lengths of common cells.

Ok, so what if you found a single standard that was all encompassing.
How does that help you buy cells? You're still gonna get whatever they
send you. And high capacity cells tend to push the envelope...pun intended.
Also, high capacity cells sometimes don't work so well in high drain
applications.
I put some computer grade 18650's in an electric screwdriver.
Performance sucked. I guess there's a reason why it came with
cells rated at half the capacity for high-drain applications.

What did they say when you called a major battery supplier or two or three?

The reason for asking was to try to determine if there is a shorter
version of the high capacity cells available.

The arrangement of the 12 cells in the pack is 3 "sticks" (end-to-end)
of 4 cells each.
The difference it makes is that the 4/3A cells I bought are longer, not
shorter, and I don't need a precision caliper to see the sticks are
~1/4" longer.
Is that the .2% you were harping about?

No, those were your numbers
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

The difference is not modifying a ruggedized military grade xenon arc
lamp if I can discover that there may be a cell size available, that I
don't know about.

You're free to price a 22-1002 NIMH battery pack at Xenonics or military
supply source to see if it might be more economical to rebuild packs
with fresh, high capacity cells.

I feel your pain, but I still don't think a standard will help you at all,
unless you buy from the same place as the original.

And the length of the "stick" may include some interconnect between
the cells.

A cells will be shorter.

I didn't have the used battery pack to examine earlier because I
couldn't find any new or used ones that were reasonably priced.. I half
expected there to be some consistency in cell sizes.
That's a reasonable half-expectation.

I can tell you that I've rebuilt a few computer battery packs with
18650's and the space was always smaller than the batteries.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............


"mike" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2013 4:35 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now
known as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't
seen anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the
length of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are
marked NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under
the skin (also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they
measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no
4/3A size.

Dizzy I tellya.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............
Methinks you protest too much.
What is it about your application that can't tolerate a battery being
.2% too short?

Ever measured the value of a resistor?
How about the diameter of a bolt.
Or the amount of coffee in a tin.

Funny story.
Back in the old days when a tin of tuna was marked 6oz.,
I drained the water and weighed the net weight.
Then I bitched at ChickenOfTheSea. They gave me the
runaround, but once they decided that I was willing to
hold as long as it takes, the came back with the admission
that there was typically 3.5oz. of tuna in the can.
And they saw no problem with that.

I'm thinking of a quantity of less than 1.. which maybe equals the number of
times you've rebuilt a battery pack.

Battery pack.. hard plastic case with cells in it.

Battery pack, not a compartment for common retail store batteries..
ruggedized military grade light.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"tuinkabouter" wrote in message
...
On 01.05.2013 13:35, Wild_Bill wrote:
I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.

Where do the 18650, 17670 and (fractional) A sizes come from? EIA now
known as ECIA, IP&E, iNEMI?
Probably not EIA/ECIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_standards
IEC, maybe.
I've looked at the consumer battery size charts (wiki etc) and haven't
seen anything that's even close to being concise.

Great Googly Moogly.

Update:
I bought some used OEM battery packs and upon opening one, found the
length of the cells to be about 63mm (63.4 x 18mm dia). The skins are
marked NT410LAH, but the actual metal shell is marked H410LAH-C under
the skin (also 1K05F likely a date/production number).
These cells are stated to be 4100mAh NIMH. Coincidently, GC brand has a
GC410LAH cell.

Previously posted in Feb, I was inquiring about cell lengths.
Excerpt:
I received my order of 4/3 A NIMH 4500mAh cells (with tabs) and they
measure
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

Apparently, it's another issue of non-standardized "standards".

Specs for 18650 flat top cells show 65.5 x 18mm.
Most sellers show flat top 4/3A cells as over 65 x 17mm
Specs for 17670 flat top cells show 66/67 x 17.5mm

As a point of levity, an Amazon seller shows 4/3A flat top cells to be:
Width: 0.66" Height: 2.61" Diameter: 0.69"

I saw a mention of a 7/5A cell size.. really? Can't come up with another
letter?
So maybe the OEM cells in this instance are 14/12A.

Panasonic OEM/industrial chart shows "18670 (L-Fat-A)" cells.. but no
4/3A size.

Dizzy I tellya.

Almost all battery powered devices has springs in the battery holders.
Why do you think the springs are for?

I thing you are hunting ghosts.

Only one manufacturer, Panasonic, showed any accurate specs for the sizes of
their cells, but didn't list the 4/3A size cells.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...l-hydride.aspx
Those numbers under the Diameter and Length headings show the size +/- size
tolerances that can be expected.

And this is why I don't usually call manufacturers and vendors.. because I
expect I'll need to keep repeating myself until it's time for them to go
home.

The difference in size I mentioned was the cells I bought are 66.11mm, and
the cells that were in the used battery pack are 63.4mm.
I didn't have the used pack when I contacted a battery vendor, which I
needed to explain twice, so I bought some cells based upon the measurement
he sent me, and they were actually a little shorter than the measurement he
specified.

The reason for my inquiry was that I might discover (learn for myself) a
cell size that I don't know about.. which would be about 63mm long.

Significantly shorter cells' capacities are limited to ~2000mAh, not the
4100mAh of the OEM cells.
Quality equipment designers want to know the precise size and weights of
various parts to be considered for their new designs.

The tone of my initial post today was my usual sarcasm, as I'm not taking
this seriously enough to lose sleep over, however, I have been expecting to
be able to find a source for cell sizes. Lots of hours of looking online,
and not much real data.

With the multitude of portable devices past and present, I woulda guessed
that there would be more listings of sizes and size comparisons than 1
Wikipedia page and a Panasonic data sheet from 2005.

Premium quality battery manufacturers (mostly just Japanese brands) have
several grades/series of rechargeable cells specifically intended for
particular applications..
Mp3 player or industrial tool, for example.
Maybe 5 grades of each different chemistry.

I suppose you coulda guessed that computer and power screwdriver power
demands are not the same.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2013 1:23 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
Hey, it's OK to say you don't know (but it's not required).

What I asked is if there are any size standards, and where they might
be.. because I can't find 'em.

Like I mentioned, this was referring to not being able to find accurate,
published (available to anyone, even you) lengths of common cells.

Ok, so what if you found a single standard that was all encompassing.
How does that help you buy cells? You're still gonna get whatever they
send you. And high capacity cells tend to push the envelope...pun
intended.
Also, high capacity cells sometimes don't work so well in high drain
applications.
I put some computer grade 18650's in an electric screwdriver.
Performance sucked. I guess there's a reason why it came with
cells rated at half the capacity for high-drain applications.

What did they say when you called a major battery supplier or two or
three?

The reason for asking was to try to determine if there is a shorter
version of the high capacity cells available.

The arrangement of the 12 cells in the pack is 3 "sticks" (end-to-end)
of 4 cells each.
The difference it makes is that the 4/3A cells I bought are longer, not
shorter, and I don't need a precision caliper to see the sticks are
~1/4" longer.
Is that the .2% you were harping about?

No, those were your numbers
closer to 66.11mm in length (not 66.25 mentioned previously).

The difference is not modifying a ruggedized military grade xenon arc
lamp if I can discover that there may be a cell size available, that I
don't know about.

You're free to price a 22-1002 NIMH battery pack at Xenonics or military
supply source to see if it might be more economical to rebuild packs
with fresh, high capacity cells.

I feel your pain, but I still don't think a standard will help you at all,
unless you buy from the same place as the original.

And the length of the "stick" may include some interconnect between
the cells.

A cells will be shorter.

I didn't have the used battery pack to examine earlier because I
couldn't find any new or used ones that were reasonably priced.. I half
expected there to be some consistency in cell sizes.
That's a reasonable half-expectation.

I can tell you that I've rebuilt a few computer battery packs with
18650's and the space was always smaller than the batteries.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

The following is not meant sarcastically or personally.

In trying to adapt CR123A lithium cells to a Polaroid 360 designed for PX-24
alkaline batteries, I had to insert several brass washers to make up the
difference in length. Differences of a fraction of a millimeter don't seem
important.

My experience with Chinese batteries is that the manufacturers don't care
about the exact dimensions. The batteries are sometimes too fat to fit.

I did quite a bit of reasearching without finding much data for rechargeable
cells. The cells I bought from TNR Batteries are FDK America brand, made in
Japan (not just the lowest price I could find on Shenzhen/eBag).

I've modified circuit boards and battery compartments in plastic housings
before, not a big deal with a Dremel/rotary tool. And when it's an older
device, newer cells generally have more capacity in smaller cells, so it
works out easily.

When I'm making up new battery packs I don't have any trouble with exact
sizes because they don't have to fit in an existing hard plastic space. I
use plastic sheet stock on the sides and shrink thick skins on them, because
they can go into belt pouches.

I've only noticed one other instance where a little extra NIMH battery
length made it a little more difficult to insert/remove AA NIMH cells in a
charger.. yeah, they were from a discount store, off brand.

There will obviously be variations in dimensions of any particular size of
cell, and even some China manufacturers specify size tolerances for their
cells (Tenergy).

The issue I brought up was that there doesn't seem to be any concise
listings of different cell sizes, not their exact dimensions and tolerances.

For almost all *letter* sizes of rechargeables, there are generally several
sub-sizes.

We've never seen more portable devices than there are presently. It's a bit
curious that battery size comparisons and datasheets/information seem to be
so obscure.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
The following is not meant sarcastically or personally.

In trying to adapt CR123A lithium cells to a Polaroid 360 designed for
PX-24 alkaline batteries, I had to insert several brass washers to make up
the difference in length. Differences of a fraction of a millimeter don't
seem important.

My experience with Chinese batteries is that the manufacturers don't care
about the exact dimensions. The batteries are sometimes too fat to fit.

"tuinkabouter"

Almost all battery powered devices has springs in the battery holders.
Why do you think the springs are for?


** To apply pressure to the electrical contacts


I thing you are hunting ghosts.

** Rechargeable cells that are intended to be manufactured into custom
packs are made in a great many sizes and there is little benefit ( for the
makers) in exact standardisation.

So they don't pay it much attention.

And no-one but a fool would attempt to catalogue it all.


..... Phil

mike formulerede spørgsmålet:

Funny story.
Back in the old days when a tin of tuna was marked 6oz.,
I drained the water and weighed the net weight.
Then I bitched at ChickenOfTheSea. They gave me the
runaround, but once they decided that I was willing to
hold as long as it takes, the came back with the admission
that there was typically 3.5oz. of tuna in the can.
And they saw no problem with that.

Andy Rooney in his 60-minutes essays once talked about everything
getting smaller, like paper towls, cans of washingpowder or food etc.

But ended with admitting they were not better themselves: 60 minutes
only was about 45 minutes of programming, the rest commercials :-)

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

After numerous additional more hours of searching, all I was able to find
out was that NEDA cooperates in the "standardization of names" for
components such as batteries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...rs_Association

The IEC is an organization "dealing with" electrical, electronic and related
technologies.
This publication is specifies marking, designation, dimensions, tests and
requirements for portable sealed nickel-metal hydride.

The IEC publication 61951-2 second edition 2003-2004 includes NIMH cells in
Part II.
The report covers letter designations related to grades of performance,
temperature capabilities, recharging rate capibilities and discharging
endurance.
These letters are not the AA, AAA, C, D etc assigned to different sizes, but
instead classification letter prefixes or suffixes.

The 4/3A cells aren't even shown, although the (several) other sizes of A
cells are, but the pub is already a decade old.
The IEC reports/publications don't appear to be easily accessible for
non-members.. oic, the pubs are for sale, same as BSI pubs.

It's not likely that any manufacturers are required to comply with
standards, although some companies traditionally have, as it makes product
procurement easier.. like mil-specs designate numerous characteristics of
parts and materials.. when the particular mil-spec is looked up, there are
all the characteristics.

Stated in the Energizer compliance statement "All Energizer and Eveready
products are designed to meet or exceed the requirements of the various
national and international industry battery standards.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/batt_stds_compliance.pdf

Then they list reference publications for various organizations' standards
including IEC, NEMA, ANSI, ASTM and JIS, indicating their products'
compliance with industry standards.

NEMA/ANSI C18.2 pub's purpose is: to ensure the electrical and physical
interchangeability of products from different manufacturers.. and also to
provide guidance to consumers, manufacturers, designers and other end users.

Funny thing is, the pub doesn't include where the info can be found.. just
rest assured that they spent a lot of effort compiling the data, even though
they might be the only people to have ever seen it.

After all this time it occurred to me that one of the internal safety
components in the military cells may have been ommitted so the cells could
be shorter, because the military doesn't risk/face damage or injury
litigation the way battery manufacturers do with consumer end users.

I think my quest is concluded.. if 18x63 or 64mm long 4/3A cells exist, no
one is interested in selling them.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...

I get dizzy roaming around from one supplier/manufacturer to another
looking for any standards as they apply to differently sized cells.