Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On 8/19/2012 12:37 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


Wind more turns. As many as you can fit in your attention span.
2 is a lot better than 1.
Measure the inductance of each winding.
Or apply volts and measure the ratio.
Accuracy of the result is proportional to the number of
turns you add and the precision of your measurements.
Most anything electrical you do will give more accuracy than weighing stuff.

Curiosity killed the cat...but I gotta ask, "why do you care?"
Sometimes people ask complicated questions when the solution
to their problem is very much simpler.
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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

mike wrote in message ...
On 8/19/2012 12:37 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the

plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but

number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding

not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one

way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of

the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and

what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the

varnish?


Wind more turns. As many as you can fit in your attention span.
2 is a lot better than 1.
Measure the inductance of each winding.
Or apply volts and measure the ratio.
Accuracy of the result is proportional to the number of
turns you add and the precision of your measurements.
Most anything electrical you do will give more accuracy than weighing

stuff.

Curiosity killed the cat...but I gotta ask, "why do you care?"
Sometimes people ask complicated questions when the solution
to their problem is very much simpler.


I forgot to say this coil has a burnt/sputtered patch


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

Simple approach... Find an ohmeter that can read very low resistances with
high resolution. You can then duplicate the coil by winding a coil with the
same resistance using the same wire on an identical form.

Right?


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On 8/19/2012 1:52 AM, N_Cook wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 8/19/2012 12:37 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the

plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but

number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding

not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one

way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of

the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and

what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the

varnish?


Wind more turns. As many as you can fit in your attention span.
2 is a lot better than 1.
Measure the inductance of each winding.
Or apply volts and measure the ratio.
Accuracy of the result is proportional to the number of
turns you add and the precision of your measurements.
Most anything electrical you do will give more accuracy than weighing

stuff.

Curiosity killed the cat...but I gotta ask, "why do you care?"
Sometimes people ask complicated questions when the solution
to their problem is very much simpler.


I forgot to say this coil has a burnt/sputtered patch


Yet you still refuse to disclose why you care.
Is the number of turns really the defining parameter for this winding?

Cut the winding off the core.
Take a high res picture of the face of the cut.
Calculate the area. Count the turns in a smaller area, multiply.


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

unfortunately only Google seems to have free access to this file
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...n3n3kAizY_sJ:h
ttp://www.crcnetbase.com/doi/pdf/10.1201/9781420027280.ch4%2B%22packing+fact
or%22+of+a+copper+wire+coil&sei=4rEwUOjmI8jT0QWb7Y HoDQ&gbv=2&ct=clnk

with distortion of the maths though


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

The copper filling factor would be the ratio of copper as weighed to the
weight if that volume was totally filled with copper. The volume is easy
enough to calculate, but how to get an estimate of the number of turns from
the filling factor. The length is calculatable from the coil weight,
ignoring weight of the impregnation


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On 8/19/2012 1:52 AM, N_Cook wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 8/19/2012 12:37 AM, N_Cook wrote:



Curiosity killed the cat...but I gotta ask, "why do you care?"
Sometimes people ask complicated questions when the solution
to their problem is very much simpler.


I forgot to say this coil has a burnt/sputtered patch


This is what makes trying to help people so frustrating.
If the coil is open or shorted and precludes normal diagnostic
measures, why not just say so?

Burnt/sputtered is useless info. Sure, we can all guess what
that means, but it's better if you just say what you mean
in terms relevant to the solution.

If you wanna rewind the coil, just say so.
It's not rocket science. If you know the diameter
of the wire and the width of the winding, you know the
number of turns per layer.
If you know the height of the winding, you can calculate
the number of layers. Multiply the two.

Now comes the unknown part. Is there anything between
the layers?
If you have precision winding equipment, can you increase the
number of layers by shifting each layer? I'm sure there's
math to determine this. I'd just draw some circles on paper and measure
the ratio when they're closest packed.
If you don't have precision winding equipment, you probably can't
get nearly as many turns as the calculations suggest.

If you wanna know, cut off the winding and make some actual measurements.

If it's a rely, you'll probably find that filling up the space works.

If it's some other problem, try being less abstruse.

I was gonna say, "sorry about the rant"...but I'd do it again...
so sorry isn't the right word.



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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

As others have pointed out (including myself, on many occasions), this is
the sort of question or problem that shows up all-too-often in UseNet groups
(and elsewhere!).

There's a story (probably apochryphal) that Edison asked a new employee to
calculate the volume of a light bulb. The young man sat for some time with
calipers and a slide rule, making little progress. Edison finally
interrupted his work, poured water into the bulb, then emptied the water
into a graduate. (The graduate's name is not recorded.)

On the assumption Mr Cook wants to wind a replacement, why should he not
simply get a form and wind wire of the appropriate thickness, then //test//
the coil * to see if it works the way he wants it to? He could have done
that by now!

I am a //great// believer in theory. You never //really// understand
something until you grasp the principles involved. BUT...! There are some
things you simply go and do, without worrying about theory, because "doing
it" involves a lot less time and trouble.

* Not to be confused with Tesla coil.


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

Perhaps a bit of integral calculus. In a coil winding manual I have a table
of wire gauge v the minimum excess advance per turn to avoid upsetting of
wound layers. Then sum the layers in terms of the number of turns per width
and this excess , including in a notional paper layer per turn (p), out to
the outer layer set an average value . Including p being negative (layers
settling into the gaps of the previous layer) and determine what value of p
gives the right length of wire to fill that volume, then that gives the
number of turns. At the first approximation ignoring curvature at the
"corners".




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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Perhaps a bit of integral calculus. In a coil winding manual I have a

table
of wire gauge v the minimum excess advance per turn to avoid upsetting of
wound layers. Then sum the layers in terms of the number of turns per

width
and this excess , including in a notional paper layer per turn (p), out to
the outer layer set an average value . Including p being negative (layers
settling into the gaps of the previous layer) and determine what value of

p
gives the right length of wire to fill that volume, then that gives the
number of turns. At the first approximation ignoring curvature at the
"corners".


You don't need integral calculus to calculate this, any more than you need
calculus to determine the number of "layers" in a recording-tape "pancake".
The approximation assuming the "discreteness" of each layer is good enough.


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William Sommerwerck wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Perhaps a bit of integral calculus. In a coil winding manual I have a

table
of wire gauge v the minimum excess advance per turn to avoid upsetting

of
wound layers. Then sum the layers in terms of the number of turns per

width
and this excess , including in a notional paper layer per turn (p), out

to
the outer layer set an average value . Including p being negative

(layers
settling into the gaps of the previous layer) and determine what value

of
p
gives the right length of wire to fill that volume, then that gives the
number of turns. At the first approximation ignoring curvature at the
"corners".


You don't need integral calculus to calculate this, any more than you need
calculus to determine the number of "layers" in a recording-tape

"pancake".
The approximation assuming the "discreteness" of each layer is good

enough.



Glad to see a contribution pertaining to the thread subject heading ,
typical Usenet , most of the thread ,so far , is off-beam.

I doubt the increase in "layer length" of wire per layer goes up lineally
with each layer but again first approximation could assume so and so simple
arithmetic series summation should be all that is required. I just measured
the outer layer "circumference" ie rounded rectangle and not as much
difference as I thought, 77mm around the centre bulge and 74mm at the edges
..

Hopefully I can now do the maths and then if I mess-up grinding across a
section of the original coil ,
so unable to count wire endings, then will at least I will have something to
go with . I don't know how the impregnation will react to a cutting disk ie
smearing.


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On Aug 19, 5:05*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
There's a story (probably apochryphal) that Edison asked a new employee to
calculate the volume of a light bulb. The young man sat for some time with
calipers and a slide rule, making little progress. Edison finally
interrupted his work, poured water into the bulb, then emptied the water
into a graduate. (The graduate's name is not recorded.)


Wait, His boss said 'calculate' the volume, not 'measure' the volume,
nor 'find' the volume. The employee was doing as asked. Why ridicule
him? Or, is the original anecdote contain a misquote?
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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On Aug 19, 12:37*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


I found that tables from wire suppliers are a great guideline. But,
nothing beats having to fight 'stacking factor' on your own.

I use 0.5 for wrapping 36 Awg enameled wire. I know I should be able
toget better than 0.7.

So take the winding area multiply by SF and divide by wire cross
section area and you'll get very close..

And, from experience, if there are a few layers, don't count on nice
neat, high density layering and stacking, doesn't work that way.

Oh, also watch out for stretching the wire, making it slightly thinner
and 'appear' to be able to put on more turns, you'vve actually reduced
the wire size instead.
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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

Robert Macy wrote in message
...
On Aug 19, 12:37 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but

number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding

not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of

the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and

what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


I found that tables from wire suppliers are a great guideline. But,
nothing beats having to fight 'stacking factor' on your own.

I use 0.5 for wrapping 36 Awg enameled wire. I know I should be able
toget better than 0.7.

So take the winding area multiply by SF and divide by wire cross
section area and you'll get very close..

And, from experience, if there are a few layers, don't count on nice
neat, high density layering and stacking, doesn't work that way.

Oh, also watch out for stretching the wire, making it slightly thinner
and 'appear' to be able to put on more turns, you'vve actually reduced
the wire size instead.

++++

By stacking factor do you mean the ratio of copper volume to the volume
occupied by the copper ? ie the last layers always need squahsing into the
available (calculated) space between former and iron core etc.

I will try that , also calculation via derivation of a formula for such
situations , and also try cutting through the coil mass and counting
directly , hopefully . For future reference as to accuracy of each method
(in one instance anyway)




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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

There's a story (probably apochryphal) that Edison asked
a new employee to calculate the volume of a light bulb.
The young man sat for some time with calipers and a slide
rule, making little progress. Edison finally interrupted his work,
poured water into the bulb, then emptied the water into a
graduate. (The graduate's name is not recorded.)


Wait, His boss said 'calculate' the volume, not 'measure' the
volume, nor 'find' the volume. The employee was doing as
asked. Why ridicule him? Or, is the original anecdote contain
a misquote?


I might have misquoted it. Edison might have said "find".

Regardless, one of the points of this anecdote is that you should look for a
good solution -- not necessarily the solution you were asked for.


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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 12:37:17 AM UTC-7, N_Cook wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of "packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.


If you have a dead unknown coil, easiest is to remove the wire
(unwind some, cut if you have to) and (1) find its gauge with
ohmmeter or microscope-and-ruler, (2) weigh the copper after it's
removed.

Get new wire, same gage and weight, and wind all of it onto the form.
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Default Determining number of turns of a coil?

Robert Macy wrote in message
...
On Aug 19, 12:37 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but

number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding

not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of

the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and

what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


I found that tables from wire suppliers are a great guideline. But,
nothing beats having to fight 'stacking factor' on your own.

I use 0.5 for wrapping 36 Awg enameled wire. I know I should be able
toget better than 0.7.

So take the winding area multiply by SF and divide by wire cross
section area and you'll get very close..

And, from experience, if there are a few layers, don't count on nice
neat, high density layering and stacking, doesn't work that way.

Oh, also watch out for stretching the wire, making it slightly thinner
and 'appear' to be able to put on more turns, you'vve actually reduced
the wire size instead.



++++

By stacking factor do you mean the ratio of copper volume to the volume
occupied by the copper ? ie the last layers always need squahsing into the
available (calculated) space between former and iron core etc.

Or do you mean 1 is the mathematical theoretical ideal packing of first
layer n, next n-1, next n etc
all precisely registered over the previous layer , within the hollows, that
in itself a fraction of the total volume occupied by the coil , again some
preciese mathematical value for a given wire gauge.
Then 0.7 is the real world ratio of copper for a machine wound coil plus
skilled worker ratio of actual to this ideal.
Then .5 is the likely ratio value for anyone else doing layup of fine wire
with hand cranked coil winder.


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On Aug 19, 9:07*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Robert Macy wrote in message

...
On Aug 19, 12:37 am, "N_Cook" wrote:





Is there an online calculator anywhere ? or failing that what sort of
"packing factor" for 0.08mm (+/- .005mm ) winding on a relay coil.
I have a good idea of the weight , subtracting an estimate of the plastic
former and this would give the length from the density of copper but

number
ot turns ?.
Impregnated coil so cannot count-off turns
Rectangular section to coil , on the inside anyway, 14x 16.4mm , 16.8mm
width, outer layer is curved at "corners" and bulging (from the winding

not
abuse) so more scatterwound than precise regular lay-up .
Outer dimensions of 21.4mm bulge / 20.3mm , or so, at outer edges one way
and 23.4/22.2mm , the other, a bit of geometry would give a good idea of

the
volume of this space but what ratio of that volume would be copper and

what
air+varnish, then what sort of weight would be contributed by the varnish?


I found that tables from wire suppliers are a great guideline. But,
nothing beats having to fight 'stacking factor' on your own.

I use 0.5 for wrapping 36 Awg enameled wire. I know I should be able
toget better than 0.7.

So take the winding area multiply by SF and divide by wire cross
section area and you'll get very close..

And, from experience, if there are a few layers, don't count on nice
neat, high density layering and stacking, doesn't work that way.

Oh, also watch out for stretching the wire, making it slightly thinner
and 'appear' to be able to put on more turns, you'vve actually reduced
the wire size instead.

++++

By stacking factor do you mean the ratio of copper volume to the volume
occupied by the copper ? ie the last layers always need squahsing into the
available (calculated) space between former and iron core etc.

I will try that , also calculation via derivation of a formula for such
situations , and also try cutting through the coil mass and counting
directly , hopefully . For future reference as to accuracy of each method
(in one instance anyway)


I don't know the 'exact' definition of SF, but I always thought it
meant the ratio of copper cross sectional area vs available window
cross sectional area

I drew out a round wire WITH insulation and stacked it into a cross
sectional area and quite frankly was shocked at how poorly that works
out. At least that result is the BEST that can be done, since it
relates to the physical geometry of laying wires down. One other thing
to watch for is the insulation thikcness. For enaled wire there is
single, double, and tirple coating.
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N_Cook wrote in message
...
Perhaps a bit of integral calculus. In a coil winding manual I have a

table
of wire gauge v the minimum excess advance per turn to avoid upsetting of
wound layers. Then sum the layers in terms of the number of turns per

width
and this excess , including in a notional paper layer per turn (p), out to
the outer layer set an average value . Including p being negative (layers
settling into the gaps of the previous layer) and determine what value of

p
gives the right length of wire to fill that volume, then that gives the
number of turns. At the first approximation ignoring curvature at the
"corners".



My formula uses the assumption that the length per turn increases, layer to
layer, linearly by 2 wire diameters per "corner" so 8 x .08mm per turn. For
44SWG .08mm wire I assumed the manual coil winder excess turn advance of 8
percent. From the weight of wire then the length. Then using my formula ,
came to 30 layers and a p value of -.013 mm
That gave 5790 turns

I disc ground through the coil and because I can weigh to 0.01 gm counted
off a sample of 952 turns and then ratioed by weight to 6420 turns .
Perhaps for machine wound coil can drop the 8 percent to 7 percent for 44
swg to give a better result.

So now know the inductance as well as the DC impedance (plus a useful
formula for the future , for 44 swg anyway)




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On Aug 20, 2:29*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
By stacking factor do you mean the ratio of copper volume to the volume
occupied by the copper ? ie the last layers always need squahsing into the
available (calculated) space between former and iron core etc.

Or do you mean 1 is the mathematical theoretical ideal packing of first
layer n, next n-1, next n etc
all precisely registered over the previous layer , within the hollows, that
in itself a fraction of the total volume occupied by the coil , again some
preciese mathematical value for a given wire gauge.
Then 0.7 is the real world ratio of copper for a machine wound coil plus
skilled worker ratio of actual to this ideal.
Then .5 is the likely ratio value for anyone else doing layup of *fine wire
with hand cranked coil winder.


Stacking Factor refers to the overall total ratio.

Knock yourself out laying th wires down carfully versus simply
wrapping them. I would be interested to find out how many more turns
ou got on there by being so neat.

The time when laying wires down carefully really becomes important is
when you're winding a high voltage coil, or a high frequency coil. In
the HV coil you need to make certain the voltage gradient along the
coil is minimal - in other words, keep the voltage between overlapping
turns very low to prevent it from shorting out. In the HF coil you
need to pay attention to the interwinding capacitance, else the self
inductance comes way down on you. The two kind of relate.

This compnay carries wire down below 56 Awg and has some tables and
charts that list min/max diameters for all types of wires. hey had the
most realistic values for realizable coil winding I've found.
http://www.mwswire.com
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