Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.

Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall clock that
uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much obliged.

- = -
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http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Jun 22, 10:10*am, wrote:
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.


This Atomic Clock works off either AC or DC:

http://www.symmetricom.com/products/...tandard/5071A/


Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall clock that
uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much obliged.


Ah. You want a WWV receiver clock.
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

Adrian C wrote:
On 22/06/2012 18:10, wrote:
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.

Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall
clock that uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much
obliged.


For flexibility of placement, quartz wall clocks have run on batteries
for many years. Having a visible power cable is ugly.

Radio controlled clocks have inherited this design requirement
unfortunately.

USB Power adaptors are pretty small, some not that larger than a plug.
Have a look at iPod or mobile phone accessories. If necessary adjust
the voltage downwards with a suitable series regulator. Single
transistor, resistor, capacitor and a zener should do it.


Another quite valid reason for "atomic" clocks being run from batteries is
that the clocks query the time sources for the exact time during the night,
when signal propagation is best. If the clock loses power during the day,
it needs to reset itself when power is restored, but probably won't be able
to receive a signal strong enough to be able to make a correction of the
time until late at night. Being on battery power solves this problem by
never having a loss of power except when the batteries finally die.

--
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A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after
that is the beginning of a new argument.


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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

wrote in message
...
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.

Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall clock

that
uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much obliged.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus,

BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime

Bimbos]






If you don't want a backlight , how much HF electronic smog/ mains coupling
is available these days in the average domestic situation. Enough to power
LCD and short burst ULF receiver operation ?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?
Your question appears to be about Radio Clocks rather than Atomic Clocks, why not call it what it is?

(Private citizens tend not to own atomic clocks, they normally reside in laboratories, and atomic clocks are powered by mains electricity, not batteries, although there is likely to be an uninterruptable power supply associated with them.)
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On 6/22/2012 4:22 PM, Dave M wrote:
Adrian C wrote:
On 22/06/2012 18:10, wrote:
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.

Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall
clock that uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much
obliged.


For flexibility of placement, quartz wall clocks have run on batteries
for many years. Having a visible power cable is ugly.

Radio controlled clocks have inherited this design requirement
unfortunately.

USB Power adaptors are pretty small, some not that larger than a plug.
Have a look at iPod or mobile phone accessories. If necessary adjust
the voltage downwards with a suitable series regulator. Single
transistor, resistor, capacitor and a zener should do it.


Another quite valid reason for "atomic" clocks being run from batteries is
that the clocks query the time sources for the exact time during the night,
when signal propagation is best. If the clock loses power during the day,
it needs to reset itself when power is restored, but probably won't be able
to receive a signal strong enough to be able to make a correction of the
time until late at night. Being on battery power solves this problem by
never having a loss of power except when the batteries finally die.

Well, that is true sometimes, but I have had good results replacing
the battery in the middle of the day. The clock normally resets just
fine.

I am very seldom up in the middle of the night to replace the battery.

Bill

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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:10:12 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?


I think you mean WWVB 60KHz clocks. Atomic clocks are cesium and
rubidium standards.

Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.


The problem is that consumer "atomic" clocks only update roughly once
per day. The receiver turns on, usually in the middle of the night
when 60KHz propagation is best, update, and turn off to conserve
battery power. There are continuously operating WWVH receivers
available, but not at consumer prices. The batteries also act as a
UPS, allowing the clock to continue operating without waiting for
night time for WWVB to update the clock.

Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall clock that
uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much obliged.


Heath GC-1000 WWV receiver. I have one that I'm slowly rebuilding.
Nifty and rather unique device.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgNtlpSumHg
They sell for about $230 on eBay. An unbuilt kit sold for $700.

I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve, but if you don't
like replacing a single AA battery every year, you might consider
replacing it with a rechargeable battery and solar charger. These
already exist:
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/8112w/index.php

For the retro effect, I suggest a wind up or hand crank type generator
for charging the battery.
http://www.k-tor.com/hand-crank-generator/

If that's too much effort, I suggest the atomic water clock:
http://www.prlog.org/10596274-the-new-atomic-h2o-clock.html
Just add fresh water every 6 months.


--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:40:54 +0000, FatallyFlawed
wrote:

(Private citizens tend not to own atomic clocks, they normally reside in
laboratories, and atomic clocks are powered by mains electricity, not
batteries, although there is likely to be an uninterruptable power
supply associated with them.)


Ummm... there are plenty of mere mortals that own cesium and rhubidium
standards that drive test equipment and sometimes clocks. The 1 pps
output from a GPS or cesium standard is quite useful for driving
clocks.
http://leapsecond.com
http://www.leapsecond.com/hpclocks/
Such atomic frequency standards are also available rather economically
on eBay. For example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280905645392 $86 for rubidium. (Note that
rubidium is not really a primary standard but is good enough for most
applications). Personally, I prefer a GPSDO (GPS diciplined
oscillator) which is more accurate and draws somewhat less power:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170862678745 $158

As for requiring mains electricity, note that the power requirements
for the miniature rubidium and cesium fountains makes it possible to
operate from batteries. The unit above runs on 12V and burns 11 watts
after stabilization. Last time I checked, the GPS satellites, which
have internal Kernco cesium clocks, do not require a 20,000km
extension cord.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

Much obliged. I like the idea of solar, but I doubt it charges well
enough. Tried solar clocks in 1985 and 1990 do dismay.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]




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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:09:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:10:12 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?


I think you mean WWVB 60KHz clocks. Atomic clocks are cesium and
rubidium standards.

SNIP
Can Americium be used to build an atomic clock? I understand a little
about how cesium and rubidium atoms are used to build atomic clocks
but since Americium is used in many smoke detectors wouldn't that be a
great science fair project or a Maker Faire project? The world's first
truly atomic wall clock? Of course, I suppose it could be argued that
radium on clock hands qualify the clock as atomic if radioactivity is
the only metric.
Eric
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 15:22:39 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:09:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:10:12 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?


I think you mean WWVB 60KHz clocks. Atomic clocks are cesium and
rubidium standards.


SNIP
Can Americium be used to build an atomic clock?


Probably not. Anything that will vaporize at reasonable temperatures
to form a "fountain" or produces an RF excited gas cell can be used.
Americium-241 is solid and melts at about 2600C:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americium
Compare with Cesium-133 boiling at 671C and Rubidium-87 at 688C:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubidium
Actually, it doesn't need to vaporize the entire contents to work.
100C is usually sufficient to create some usable gas. I just wanted
to illustrate the relative difference in temperatures required.

I understand a little
about how cesium and rubidium atoms are used to build atomic clocks
but since Americium is used in many smoke detectors wouldn't that be a
great science fair project or a Maker Faire project?


Ummm... I suggest you read The Radioactive Boy Scout before
proceeding.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Radioactive-Boy-Scout-Backyard/dp/037550351X

The world's first
truly atomic wall clock?


It's closer than you might suspect. See:
http://www.symmetricom.com/media/files/downloads/product-datasheets/DS%5FSA.45sCSAC.pdf
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/ofm/smallclock/CSAC.html
It draws only 0.1 watts. I think it's based on Thallium-205, but I'm
not sure. You don't want to know the price.

Of course, I suppose it could be argued that
radium on clock hands qualify the clock as atomic if radioactivity is
the only metric.


That reminds me. To vaporize radioactive materials into a gas is not
exactly a safe thing to do. The slightest leak, and you've zapped the
user. Triple seal the physics package will help, but there's always
going to be someone with a can opener and a product liability attorney
for a brother in law.

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

If you use NiMH batteries, which tend to self-discharge at a rather high
rate,



the 2300 mAH AA Everready NiMH(not pre-charged) that I bought at WalMart
seem to not have a high discharge rate. I use them for my LED bicycle
lighting system. the NiMH cells came with a "smart charger".
I charge them maybe once a month.

they hold a charge a lot longer than the DeWalt 9.6V NiCd packs for my
drill-driver.(and don't have the dendrite problem...) :-)

I also have some pre-charged,low self-discharge NiMH cells but they are
only 2100 mAH.


I'm not saying that is the case for ALL NiMH cells.....
but they -may- be improving on that self-discharge rate.



It also irks me that the NiMH cells in the stores don't list the mAH rating
on the packages.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

wrote in message
...
Why do all the atomic clocks require batteries?


To prevent AC line noise from drowning out the time signal?




Makes no sence that I woul dbuy aclock to not have to reset
the time just so I can play with the batteries instead.


All the clocks in my house are atomic clocks except for the one on the
microwave and stove, and I never have to reset them except for battery
changes. Read your owners manual. Battery change is done once a year on
new years day. They do DST changes automatically. The only thing to reset
is timezone.


Anyone know of a simple analog atomic (naval time by radio) wall clock
that
uses only 120v ac and no adaptor? (Online specs?) Much obliged.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]






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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:28:23 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

If you use NiMH batteries, which tend to self-discharge at a rather high
rate,


the 2300 mAH AA Everready NiMH(not pre-charged) that I bought at WalMart
seem to not have a high discharge rate. I use them for my LED bicycle
lighting system. the NiMH cells came with a "smart charger".
I charge them maybe once a month.


With typical NiMH, I loose about 20% of charge in the first 24 hrs,
and then about 1% per day. I've confirmed this with my own tinkering.
After about 3 months, I typically have a half dead battery. It varies
hugely with temperatu
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Batteries/self-compare.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery
With the LSD (low self discharge) NiMH batteries, I find that it loses
about 10% on the first day, and then very slowly drifts toward about
75% capacity within about 3 months, and then sits there forever.
However, such batteries also have less capacity than typical NiMH
cells, so you end up with about the same capacity after a few months.

The problem with using such batteries is that the clock needs to be
able to operate over a long period of time. It could be designed to
operate with a battery permanently at 50% capacity, but that would be
a waste of money for the battery. Using LiIon would be cheaper and
not waste any capacity.

However, LiIon and LiPo have another problem. They self deteriorate
at full capacity and at high temperatures.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
See Table 3. Therefore, Lithium batteries aren't going to work for
the clock. I guess one needs to use the same approach as the smart
meter vendors are doing. High capacity, non-rechargeable, seems to be
the best.
http://www.tadiranbat.com/pdf.php?id=metering_international_20_years

they hold a charge a lot longer than the DeWalt 9.6V NiCd packs for my
drill-driver.(and don't have the dendrite problem...) :-)


My Skil something drill and NiCd packs are in my car, which tends to
get rather warm. During the summer, I'll have a nearly dead battery
pack from self-discharge in about a month. During the winter, the
pack will probably last all winter.

I also have some pre-charged,low self-discharge NiMH cells but they are
only 2100 mAH.

I'm not saying that is the case for ALL NiMH cells.....
but they -may- be improving on that self-discharge rate.


Notice how all the specs are at 25C. Reality requires a higher test
temperature.

It also irks me that the NiMH cells in the stores don't list the mAH rating
on the packages.


Not a problem. All the specs are lies, but that's ok, because nobody
really understands them. The capacity tests are usually an
unrealistically low discharge rates resulting in inflated figures.
I'll give Sanyo credit for using C/5 discharge rate, which is more
realistic:
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/DATA_SHEETS/HR-3UTGA_data_sheet.pdf


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:28:23 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

If you use NiMH batteries, which tend to self-discharge at a rather high
rate,


the 2300 mAH AA Everready NiMH(not pre-charged) that I bought at WalMart
seem to not have a high discharge rate. I use them for my LED bicycle
lighting system. the NiMH cells came with a "smart charger".
I charge them maybe once a month.


With typical NiMH, I loose about 20% of charge in the first 24 hrs,
and then about 1% per day. I've confirmed this with my own tinkering.
After about 3 months, I typically have a half dead battery.


Try the Sanyo Eneloop cells; they claim about 85% after a year of
storage, and my experience using them in my camera confirms that.

Isaac
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:48:04 -0700, isw wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:28:23 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

If you use NiMH batteries, which tend to self-discharge at a rather high
rate,


the 2300 mAH AA Everready NiMH(not pre-charged) that I bought at WalMart
seem to not have a high discharge rate. I use them for my LED bicycle
lighting system. the NiMH cells came with a "smart charger".
I charge them maybe once a month.


With typical NiMH, I loose about 20% of charge in the first 24 hrs,
and then about 1% per day. I've confirmed this with my own tinkering.
After about 3 months, I typically have a half dead battery.


Try the Sanyo Eneloop cells; they claim about 85% after a year of
storage, and my experience using them in my camera confirms that.
Isaac


You didn't use your camera for a year?

Hint: Accelerated lifetime tests are usually done at elevated
temperatures and for short periods. They are then extrapolated back
to room temperatures and longer periods. The curves are well behaved
and apply to all chemistries after the initial self-discharge.
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Batteries/self-compare.htm

The 3rd generation Eneloop claims 70% after 5 years. How to recognize
which Eneloop generation:
1st gen - No crown icon
2nd gen - Crown icon near plus sign
3rd gen - Crown and metallic colored letters.

I have a set of Eneloop and they are better than ordinary NiMH for
self discharge. However, when I counted how many pictures the camera
(Canon S5-IS) would take before the charge indicator began to
complain, I found that in the short term (about 2 weeks), the ordinary
NiMH batteries took more pictures. In the long run, the Eneloop
batteries did better. My undocumented wild guess(tm) is that the
break even point is at about 2 months. That's because the initial
(i.e. immediately after a full charge) for the ordinary NiMH battery
is about 2200ma-hr, while the Eneloop are about 1900ma-hr.
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/DATA_SHEETS/HR-3UTGA_data_sheet.pdf
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/7336
http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop
This weekend (ham radio field day), I took about 30 photos with a set
of no-name 2300ma-hr NiMh batteries when the charge indicator
appeared. The batteries were charged about 4 months ago. I switched
to a set of 1st generation Eneloop batteries, that I had charged about
7 months ago, and had previously shot about 100 photos. The charge
indicator showed 50%. However, after another 50 photos, the charge
indicator still showed 50% implying that there was plenty of capacity
left. Yep, Eneloop are good batteries for cameras.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:48:04 -0700, isw wrote:

Try the Sanyo Eneloop cells; they claim about 85% after a year of
storage, and my experience using them in my camera confirms that.


+1

Jonesy


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Default Atomic CLock with pure 120v ac?

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:48:04 -0700, isw wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:28:23 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

If you use NiMH batteries, which tend to self-discharge at a rather
high
rate,

the 2300 mAH AA Everready NiMH(not pre-charged) that I bought at WalMart
seem to not have a high discharge rate. I use them for my LED bicycle
lighting system. the NiMH cells came with a "smart charger".
I charge them maybe once a month.

With typical NiMH, I loose about 20% of charge in the first 24 hrs,
and then about 1% per day. I've confirmed this with my own tinkering.
After about 3 months, I typically have a half dead battery.


Try the Sanyo Eneloop cells; they claim about 85% after a year of
storage, and my experience using them in my camera confirms that.
Isaac


You didn't use your camera for a year?


Of course not; I walk a lot and use it all the time. When the cells in
the camera go dead, I replace them with the charged spares I always
carry. With "standard" cells, the spares were often near end-of-life
when I installed them. With the Eneloops (even with their lower mA-Hr
rating), I get several months of use even after carrying them around for
some months.


--snip--

I have a set of Eneloop and they are better than ordinary NiMH for
self discharge. However, when I counted how many pictures the camera
(Canon S5-IS) would take before the charge indicator began to
complain, I found that in the short term (about 2 weeks), the ordinary
NiMH batteries took more pictures. In the long run, the Eneloop
batteries did better.


Which is completely consistent with the fact the Eneloops gain that
lower leakage by using a thicker membrane between the electrodes --
which naturally reduces the mA-Hr capacity.

All I wanted was to not run out of battery while on a several-hour walk,
and then find that the "spares" were empty too. The Eneloops solved that
problem completely.

Isaac
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