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Grotty "digital" sound
Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate
sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. |
Grotty "digital" sound
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Its probably just a low bitrate mp3. But even low bitrate mp3's shouldn't sound so bad in a noisy pub environment that people won't go there again. Are you sure the speakers have not been damaged? Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
Gareth Magennis wrote in message
... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Its probably just a low bitrate mp3. But even low bitrate mp3's shouldn't sound so bad in a noisy pub environment that people won't go there again. Are you sure the speakers have not been damaged? Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Gareth. There are 4 speakers and each sounds rubbish. It coincided with replacement of the source, the mechanics of the CD deck gave up, but a mis-match between source and the existing amp would make sense. As its consistently bad I doubt it could be due to consistently bad internet material. There is a long run of cable between the box on the wall and the amp , can't help the matter |
Grotty "digital" sound
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Gareth Magennis wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Its probably just a low bitrate mp3. But even low bitrate mp3's shouldn't sound so bad in a noisy pub environment that people won't go there again. Are you sure the speakers have not been damaged? Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Gareth. There are 4 speakers and each sounds rubbish. It coincided with replacement of the source, the mechanics of the CD deck gave up, but a mis-match between source and the existing amp would make sense. As its consistently bad I doubt it could be due to consistently bad internet material. There is a long run of cable between the box on the wall and the amp , can't help the matter How is the Internet connected to the amplifier? I would guess something amiss in this interface. Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Jun 10, 1:17*pm, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote: "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Gareth Magennis wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Its probably just a low bitrate mp3. But even low bitrate mp3's shouldn't sound so bad in a noisy pub environment that people won't go there again. Are you sure the speakers have not been damaged? Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Gareth. There are 4 speakers and each sounds rubbish. It coincided with replacement of the source, the mechanics of the CD deck gave up, but a mis-match between source and the existing amp would make sense. *As its consistently bad I doubt it could be due to consistently bad internet material. There is a long run of cable between the box on the wall and the amp , can't help the matter How is the Internet connected to the amplifier? * I would guess something amiss in this interface. Gareth.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Do younger folks also complain - I think their hearing may be so damaged from those walkman type devices that they may not even realize the distortion, or think it is intended. |
Grotty "digital" sound
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Grotty "digital" sound
Mr Cook, why don't you just ask the owner if you can troubleshoot the
system? You seem to know enough to figure out what's wrong. |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:09:29 +0100, "N_Cook"
wrote: Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Find a suitable MP3 player, Android phone, iPhone, or laptop that will play MP3's. Make an adapter to whatever amplifier is being used. Play some of the same flavor of music for the management. Many people cannot recognize crappy audio when they hear it, but can tell the difference between good audio and bad when there is an A/B comparison available. Such a test will also help expose whether the problem is the internet radio or if someone trashed the amplifier during installation. That also begs the question of why they're playing internet radio, when a simple and cheap MP3 player would suffice as a replacement for the CD juke box. As always, no problem can be solved without first giving it a name. In this case, I suggest "fuzzy sound" or "high end scratch". However, if an audiophile is involved, a suitably complicated name, such as "multi-dimensional dynamic CODEC mixing artifacts" should keep them busy so that you can find the problem. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Grotty "digital" sound
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. Well, you might be right. It's been so long since I've played a fluff encrusted record that I don't recall what sounds like. I thought that it would sound like adding high frequency scratch, but now I'm not certain. I do have a functional turntable, and can probably find enough lint from the inside of my pocket to simulate the experience, but methinks it's easier to simply await clarification by the OP. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Jun 10, 1:51*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:09:29 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote: Musak in my pub was a CD juke-box , other than too loud at times, adequate sound rendition. That packed up and they replaced it with an "internet" juke-box pulling sound files off broadband. Amp speakers and wiring stayed the same, just source changed. Now whatever sound level, the sound is terrible, but not to the management of course. Reminds me of the vinyl days and fluff accumulates around the needle and that fuzziness gets worse and worse , but with that you just lift the pickup and blow off the fluff. Hasten to add , not just me, a musician friend of mine is considering never going in there again, What is the name for this distortion? presumably from being compress and decompressed so sung words are unintelligible and instrument timbre become indistinguishable from general mush. Find a suitable MP3 player, Android phone, iPhone, or laptop that will play MP3's. *Make an adapter to whatever amplifier is being used. Play some of the same flavor of music for the management. *Many people cannot recognize crappy audio when they hear it, but can tell the difference between good audio and bad when there is an A/B comparison available. Such a test will also help expose whether the problem is the internet radio or if someone trashed the amplifier during installation. Good idea. That also begs the question of why they're playing internet radio, when a simple and cheap MP3 player would suffice as a replacement for the CD juke box. I assume that, like in the US, public eating and drinking places must pay license fees for the music played there. Using a commercial internet radio service would keep the pub owner out of trouble with the copyright holders, with a minimum of effort on his part. Internet jukeboxes also permit access to a wide variety of tunes, so that his customers can play exactly what suits them. |
Grotty "digital" sound
Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. Well, you might be right. It's been so long since I've played a fluff encrusted record that I don't recall what sounds like. I thought that it would sound like adding high frequency scratch, but now I'm not certain. I do have a functional turntable, and can probably find enough lint from the inside of my pocket to simulate the experience, but methinks it's easier to simply await clarification by the OP. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I would say the bottom end is there, where there is minimum "information" is coming through but mid to top, where voice content is, is mushy, as I said like fluff lifting the needle off vinyl. This is a commercial enterprise so they like to have a coinbox attached to the music source, whatever the sound acquisition process. At a previous pub a customer who was a pro sound engineer installed their system. Worked well and still is used. A 15 inch woofer buried in the central area of the pub and 4 small speakers around the room. The woofer gives a strong sense of a sound environment to the whole pub but lack of volume from the small speakers means people can still speak to one another, without strain. Incidently his DI box installation to the room PA was wrong, so live musiscians rarely used it. There was a mismatch or long lead problem there , again a muffled sound if the DI was used |
Grotty "digital" sound
Thinking about the fluffy needle business.
Was it lifting the needle or simple damping of high frequency, low energy, vibrations of the needle , or both? |
Grotty "digital" sound
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, Gareth Magennis wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. I liked your previous suggestion: its being overdriven. Can you turn down the source, Nigel? |
Grotty "digital" sound
"Wond" wrote in message
... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, Gareth Magennis wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. I liked your previous suggestion: its being overdriven. Can you turn down the source, Nigel? I saw a demo once where successive amounts of RAM were switched out of the digital signal path and the sound got rougher and rougher. Makes me wonder if there's maybe a RAM problem in there somewhere. Mark Z. |
Grotty "digital" sound
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Jeff Liebermann wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. Well, you might be right. It's been so long since I've played a fluff encrusted record that I don't recall what sounds like. I thought that it would sound like adding high frequency scratch, but now I'm not certain. I do have a functional turntable, and can probably find enough lint from the inside of my pocket to simulate the experience, but methinks it's easier to simply await clarification by the OP. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I would say the bottom end is there, where there is minimum "information" is coming through but mid to top, where voice content is, is mushy, as I said like fluff lifting the needle off vinyl. This is a commercial enterprise so they like to have a coinbox attached to the music source, whatever the sound acquisition process. At a previous pub a customer who was a pro sound engineer installed their system. Worked well and still is used. A 15 inch woofer buried in the central area of the pub and 4 small speakers around the room. The woofer gives a strong sense of a sound environment to the whole pub but lack of volume from the small speakers means people can still speak to one another, without strain. Incidently his DI box installation to the room PA was wrong, so live musiscians rarely used it. There was a mismatch or long lead problem there , again a muffled sound if the DI was used There would have to be something seriously amiss if the sound from a DI was muffled. And you would need a seriously long cable to cause these symptoms. The only possible way I can see this (and possibly your present symptoms) could be achieved is by using that nasty signal cable which has the inner conductors coated overall in conductive plastic. If this thin, black covering is not stripped away from the soldered signal ends, it can partially short out the connection, and cause all sorts of weird intemittent problems. Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
This exchange is typical for this and other groups. Yes, it's //always//
right to start with simple suggestions (as I requested for my recent VCR problems). But ultimately, you have start getting down and dirty. Western society is modeled (in part) on Greek culture, but unlike the Greeks, we are not content to theorize about problems -- only "doing" will solve them. I urge Mr Cook to ask the pub owner to let him troubleshoot the system. If the owner won't let him -- then (other than theoretical curiosity) what is the point of discussing this? By the way, no one has answered my question about how to remove the transport board without ripping the VCR to shreds. |
Grotty "digital" sound
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... This exchange is typical for this and other groups. Yes, it's //always// right to start with simple suggestions (as I requested for my recent VCR problems). But ultimately, you have start getting down and dirty. Western society is modeled (in part) on Greek culture, but unlike the Greeks, we are not content to theorize about problems -- only "doing" will solve them. I urge Mr Cook to ask the pub owner to let him troubleshoot the system. If the owner won't let him -- then (other than theoretical curiosity) what is the point of discussing this? By the way, no one has answered my question about how to remove the transport board without ripping the VCR to shreds. The point in discussing this is to educate ourselves by sharing information. Now, have you ever come across the type of cable I have just described, and what can happen if you are unaware that the black coating is actually conductive, or would you rather not know about this kind of thing? Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:22:36 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:36:55 +0100, "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Or that the source is not now clipping a pre-amplifier/plugged into a phono pre-amp by mistake? Nope. That's backwards. The RIAA equalization curve for an amplifier phono input boosts the lows and attenuates the highs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization In this case, it sounds like too much highs, which would not fit the curve. I thought it was the other way round in this case, i.e. that the highs were unintelligible (like fluff around a needle, according to Mr. Cook). Gareth. Well, you might be right. It's been so long since I've played a fluff encrusted record that I don't recall what sounds like. I thought that it would sound like adding high frequency scratch, but now I'm not certain. I do have a functional turntable, and can probably find enough lint from the inside of my pocket to simulate the experience, but methinks it's easier to simply await clarification by the OP. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I would not volunter to put myself there for advising or repairing or modding - pub "politics". Jukebox bought/leased ? from one company , amp from another company , wiring and speakers from some previous installation. |
Grotty "digital" sound
Gareth Magennis wrote in message
... "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... This exchange is typical for this and other groups. Yes, it's file://always// right to start with simple suggestions (as I requested for my recent VCR problems). But ultimately, you have start getting down and dirty. Western society is modeled (in part) on Greek culture, but unlike the Greeks, we are not content to theorize about problems -- only "doing" will solve them. I urge Mr Cook to ask the pub owner to let him troubleshoot the system. If the owner won't let him -- then (other than theoretical curiosity) what is the point of discussing this? By the way, no one has answered my question about how to remove the transport board without ripping the VCR to shreds. The point in discussing this is to educate ourselves by sharing information. Now, have you ever come across the type of cable I have just described, and what can happen if you are unaware that the black coating is actually conductive, or would you rather not know about this kind of thing? Gareth. I've never come across that. But then up to a couple of months back I've never come across non-burnt, clean and dry , as made pcb material , going conductive on Marshall amps at valve voltages |
Grotty "digital" sound
The point in discussing this is to educate ourselves by sharing
information. Now, have you ever come across the type of cable I have just described, and what can happen if you are unaware that the black coating is actually conductive, or would you rather not know about this kind of thing? I'd be a liar if I said it didn't interest. me I might need just that information next week or next month or next year when I'm working on my own or someone else's equipment. But you can talk something to death. At some point, someone has to start troubleshooting this system. Theory is great in getting you started, but only hard observations will guide you to the solution. At least in cases like this, where there is no obvious explanation for the problem. As long as we're sharing... I once used faucet washers to isolate rack-mounted audio equipment from the rack. But it didn't eliminate the ground loops. I then discovered that black faucet washers are often conductive. Red ones aren't. |
Grotty "digital" sound
On 11/06/2012 2:37 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
I assume that, like in the US, public eating and drinking places must pay license fees for the music played there. Using a commercial internet radio service would keep the pub owner out of trouble with the copyright holders, with a minimum of effort on his part. Internet jukeboxes also permit access to a wide variety of tunes, so that his customers can play exactly what suits them. Do they still have silent records? Sylvia. |
Grotty "digital" sound
Sylvia Else wrote in message
... On 11/06/2012 2:37 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote: I assume that, like in the US, public eating and drinking places must pay license fees for the music played there. Using a commercial internet radio service would keep the pub owner out of trouble with the copyright holders, with a minimum of effort on his part. Internet jukeboxes also permit access to a wide variety of tunes, so that his customers can play exactly what suits them. Do they still have silent records? Sylvia. I created a silent minidisc last week , to clone the TOC to one with a corrupted TOC, worked a treat. |
Grotty "digital" sound
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Sylvia Else wrote in message ... On 11/06/2012 2:37 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote: I assume that, like in the US, public eating and drinking places must pay license fees for the music played there. Using a commercial internet radio service would keep the pub owner out of trouble with the copyright holders, with a minimum of effort on his part. Internet jukeboxes also permit access to a wide variety of tunes, so that his customers can play exactly what suits them. Do they still have silent records? Sylvia. I created a silent minidisc last week , to clone the TOC to one with a corrupted TOC, worked a treat. I saw a "silent disco" at a Festival a while ago - everyone wears radio headphones. Extremely amusing to watch! Gareth. |
Grotty "digital" sound
On 13/06/2012 9:21 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
I saw a "silent disco" at a Festival a while ago - everyone wears radio headphones. Extremely amusing to watch! At least they get to decide individually how much hearing damage they want. Sylvia. |
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