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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
Hi,
I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David |
#2
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
You want to replace arc lamps with LEDs?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
#3
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:34:41 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David Your best bet is to look for either PAR56 or PAR64 LED style lights and replace the entire unit. The retrofit will be a compromize and probably cost the same or more than a modern replacement. Dan |
#4
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
[email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB |
#5
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB I work on these short arc discharge lamped moving heads, and it depends on who makes them as to how expensive they are to repair. Some that I service use electronic ballasts to control the lamp, and these are effectively quite complex switch mode power supplies that produce around 100 volts AC at anything up to 15 amps, depending on the power of the fitted lamp. They can be quite challenging in terms of time, to get going again when they fail. Parts-wise, they don't tend to use anything too special that you wouldn't find in switchers in a more conventional application. Most of these units also have another switcher in them to produce the DC volts for the DMX control board, as well as the supplies for the stepper motor drivers ( there's a lot of motors in them to control pan, tilt, gobo selection, filter selection, zoom, focus etc). Generally, these power supplies are pretty conventional, and reliable. The motor driver boards fail, but again, they are fairly straightforward, and not expensive, parts-wise, to repair. Some other makes make use of conventional choke ballasts for controlling the lamp, and these tend to be very straightforward. Often, the lamp igniter is a sealed module, but some use discrete parts. As to lamps, if you take the time to cast around on the net a bit, you can reduce the silly money that some suppliers want for them, down to very sensible levels. For sure, you will probably be buying a no-name rather than a genuine Philips say, but it will perform just the same, and last nearly as long. As to modifying these lights to take a high power LED, I agree with JB's summary - it's a non-starter. I think that you should take the trouble to repair and refurbish them if you have the capability, or if not, at least enquire what the cost of a professional repair on them would be. Arfa |
#6
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
[email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David I also work in a night club and yes, the arc lamps produce some lovely bright effects which can be controlled by lenses, but need maintenance and repair. We also have LED PAR cans, and these are used as colour washes because LEDs really aren't any good at anything else yet. It is going to be a long time before LED effectively replaces what we have had for decades now. Gareth. |
#7
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David I also work in a night club and yes, the arc lamps produce some lovely bright effects which can be controlled by lenses, but need maintenance and repair. We also have LED PAR cans, and these are used as colour washes because LEDs really aren't any good at anything else yet. It is going to be a long time before LED effectively replaces what we have had for decades now. Gareth. Interestingly, one of the agents for lighting equipment that we do work for, recently got in some new Chinese LED based moving heads for us to evaluate. I have to say that overall, they were vey good in terms of performance and light output. Not up to the level of a decent sized short-arc type, but I would say that they were pretty close to the performance of the 150 watters that are out there. A while back, I was at a new show in Vegas, and the stage lighting made use of a number of LED based spots and other effects lighting. They were absolutely blinding, even well back in the auditorium. There are also some 600 watt LED based architectural wash lamps that we service, and if you accidentally start one of those up on the bench with the DMX set for full brightness, you can't see for the next ten minutes. So the LEDs are definitely getting there, but the fixture's optics need to be designed for that type of light in the first place. Arfa |
#8
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
Arfa Daily wrote in message
... "JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB I work on these short arc discharge lamped moving heads, and it depends on who makes them as to how expensive they are to repair. Some that I service use electronic ballasts to control the lamp, and these are effectively quite complex switch mode power supplies that produce around 100 volts AC at anything up to 15 amps, depending on the power of the fitted lamp. They can be quite challenging in terms of time, to get going again when they fail. Parts-wise, they don't tend to use anything too special that you wouldn't find in switchers in a more conventional application. Most of these units also have another switcher in them to produce the DC volts for the DMX control board, as well as the supplies for the stepper motor drivers there's a lot of motors in them to control pan, tilt, gobo selection, filter selection, zoom, focus etc). Generally, these power supplies are pretty conventional, and reliable. The motor driver boards fail, but again, they are fairly straightforward, and not expensive, parts-wise, to repair. Some other makes make use of conventional choke ballasts for controlling the lamp, and these tend to be very straightforward. Often, the lamp igniter is a sealed module, but some use discrete parts. As to lamps, if you take the time to cast around on the net a bit, you can reduce the silly money that some suppliers want for them, down to very sensible levels. For sure, you will probably be buying a no-name rather than a genuine Philips say, but it will perform just the same, and last nearly as long. As to modifying these lights to take a high power LED, I agree with JB's summary - it's a non-starter. I think that you should take the trouble to repair and refurbish them if you have the capability, or if not, at least enquire what the cost of a professional repair on them would be. Arfa Do you buy 10 or so at a time compact (air cooled) "bare" discharge lamps from hk/cn and build into the original reflectors ? |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Gareth Magennis" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David I also work in a night club and yes, the arc lamps produce some lovely bright effects which can be controlled by lenses, but need maintenance and repair. We also have LED PAR cans, and these are used as colour washes because LEDs really aren't any good at anything else yet. It is going to be a long time before LED effectively replaces what we have had for decades now. Gareth. Interestingly, one of the agents for lighting equipment that we do work for, recently got in some new Chinese LED based moving heads for us to evaluate. I have to say that overall, they were vey good in terms of performance and light output. Not up to the level of a decent sized short-arc type, but I would say that they were pretty close to the performance of the 150 watters that are out there. A while back, I was at a new show in Vegas, and the stage lighting made use of a number of LED based spots and other effects lighting. They were absolutely blinding, even well back in the auditorium. There are also some 600 watt LED based architectural wash lamps that we service, and if you accidentally start one of those up on the bench with the DMX set for full brightness, you can't see for the next ten minutes. So the LEDs are definitely getting there, but the fixture's optics need to be designed for that type of light in the first place. Arfa Yep, well that's kind of why the current PAR cans are so crap - no reflector or lens! Just a whole bunch of forward facing LEDs. I'd like to see some of these new spots, though, might try a bit of Googling later. Cheers, Gareth. |
#10
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
[email protected] wrote in message
... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David http://electronics.mcmelectronics.co...lights&x=0&y=0 |
#11
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"Klaatu" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Thanks for any help! David http://electronics.mcmelectronics.co...lights&x=0&y=0 OK for home use or even a small function in a dark pub but *nowhere* near enough lumens for serious use in a club/disco/stage environment. Looking at the data, it's 20W [presumeably RGB] LED array is likely to produce no more than 500-800Lm. This is not going to compare well with even low power HID projectors with sources of 20x this lumen output. I've seen a prototype RGB LED source in a lab in the Netherlands last year with an output of ~10kLm, intended for moving light projectors. This was a liquid cooled beast of 300W but very compact in optical dimensions. With a purpose designed optical system, this would be a good HID equivalent, but still couldn't compete with the really 'big boys', the 575/700/1200W powered monsters! JB |
#12
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB I work on these short arc discharge lamped moving heads, and it depends on who makes them as to how expensive they are to repair. Some that I service use electronic ballasts to control the lamp, and these are effectively quite complex switch mode power supplies that produce around 100 volts AC at anything up to 15 amps, depending on the power of the fitted lamp. They can be quite challenging in terms of time, to get going again when they fail. Parts-wise, they don't tend to use anything too special that you wouldn't find in switchers in a more conventional application. Most of these units also have another switcher in them to produce the DC volts for the DMX control board, as well as the supplies for the stepper motor drivers there's a lot of motors in them to control pan, tilt, gobo selection, filter selection, zoom, focus etc). Generally, these power supplies are pretty conventional, and reliable. The motor driver boards fail, but again, they are fairly straightforward, and not expensive, parts-wise, to repair. Some other makes make use of conventional choke ballasts for controlling the lamp, and these tend to be very straightforward. Often, the lamp igniter is a sealed module, but some use discrete parts. As to lamps, if you take the time to cast around on the net a bit, you can reduce the silly money that some suppliers want for them, down to very sensible levels. For sure, you will probably be buying a no-name rather than a genuine Philips say, but it will perform just the same, and last nearly as long. As to modifying these lights to take a high power LED, I agree with JB's summary - it's a non-starter. I think that you should take the trouble to repair and refurbish them if you have the capability, or if not, at least enquire what the cost of a professional repair on them would be. Arfa Do you buy 10 or so at a time compact (air cooled) "bare" discharge lamps from hk/cn and build into the original reflectors ? Is that addressed to me ? Not sure that I'm following exactly what you're asking ?? Are you assuming that these particular lamps come built into a reflector assembly like the ones that go in back-projector TVs for instance ? If so, the answer is no. These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. Some of the higher powered lamps have a screw connection at either end and a bulge in the outer envelope over the discharge tube. These fit in a simple clamp that holds the discharge area of the lamp at the focal point of the reflector. Google for instance MSD 250 and HTI 1200 to see pictures Arfa |
#13
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
Arfa Daily wrote in message
... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, Is that addressed to me ? Not sure that I'm following exactly what you're asking ?? Are you assuming that these particular lamps come built into a reflector assembly like the ones that go in back-projector TVs for instance ? If so, the answer is no. These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. Some of the higher powered lamps have a screw connection at either end and a bulge in the outer envelope over the discharge tube. These fit in a simple clamp that holds the discharge area of the lamp at the focal point of the reflector. Google for instance MSD 250 and HTI 1200 to see pictures Arfa So more like the more standardised industrial floodlight application and consequential sensible pricing. Rather than the compactified projector TV situation of somewhat power-for-power standardised bare bulbs, but cemented into myriad shapes and sizes of reflectors that then fit and connect into customised enclosures |
#14
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
William Sommerwerck wrote:
You want to replace arc lamps with LEDs? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a very reasonable question and goal. There are a number of available LED-based lights and spotlights that can be adapted to use as replacements for a goodly number of arc-lamp applications. |
#15
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
JB wrote:
[email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB You sound like you know nothing about CARBON ARC lamps.. |
#16
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
On Thu, 3 May 2012 02:26:10 +0100, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. That's the idea I'd like to try. We have two Chauvet Q Spots that do something similar with a bright white LED, though I doubt the particular LED they use would be bright enough. It seems to be mounted directly to a heat sink if I remember right, and if it *has* to be mounted on a heat sink that would be a big problem. But if it could be mounted on an extending piece of metal even if it has to be perforated or whatever, it seems it could then be put through the reflector and positioned wherever it needs to be. It would take some thought and work to make such an adaptor, but then the fixture would be good to go again using a lot less power, creating a lot less heat and the resulting damage from heat, and there would be no need to buy bulbs again instead of every six months or so. Also fixtures wouldn't be shut down by problems with lamping on, which is the biggest problem we have with our fixtures. From what I understand, two of our electronic ballast Mac 500s are not worth fixing because the ballast costs $1300+, even though the rest of both fixtures seem to be in good condition. Something else. The Mac 101s kick ass with a nice solid beam in pretty much all colors. Do you know what wattage LEDs they are? Someone told me 3 watt, but I haven't been able to find where it says that specifically. Anyway, I would like to find some LED "par can" type fixtures that put out a similar beam, and I've seen 3 watt LED pars advertised but don't know if it would be the same or not. The idea is that if we can get some of those, we could strip our old messed up 600s down pretty much to the frame and mount the LED pars in them to get something similar to the 101s. They would be run as two different fixtures, but we'd only have to fool with pan and tilt on the 600s part... So do you know of any LED pars, the cheap type from China, that might do the job? Or what specifically I should look for in an attempt to find them? |
#17
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
On Thu, 03 May 2012 07:52:42 -0800, Robert Baer
wrote: William Sommerwerck wrote: You want to replace arc lamps with LEDs? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a very reasonable question and goal. There are a number of available LED-based lights and spotlights that can be adapted to use as replacements for a goodly number of arc-lamp applications. What do you understand by arc-light ? Two carbon electrodes running at full atmospheric pressure (possibly by some wind shielding) or something else ? Most light output from the 1880's arc street lamps was due to the hot electrodes and not much from the arc itself (mostly UV). Film studios used arc lamps during the silent film era, but caused a lot of eye problems to the actors due to the UV radiation. But after the 1930's anyone actually using arc-lamps for illumination purposes ? Sure, as a kid I have experimented using the carbon core of a D-size battery as an arc light electrode running from 220 V with some current limiting, but after a while, this was not too interesting :-( |
#18
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
What do you understand by arc-light? Two carbon
electrodes running at full atmospheric pressure (possibly by some wind shielding) or something else? The former. The question seemed absurd! But after the 1930's is anyone actually using arc-lamps for illumination purposes? How do you defrine "illumination"? Aren't they still used to promote major events? |
#19
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
On Thu, 03 May 2012 21:23:20 +0300, upsidedown wrote:
On Thu, 03 May 2012 07:52:42 -0800, Robert Baer snip Most light output from the 1880's arc street lamps was due to the hot electrodes and not much from the arc itself (mostly UV). Film studios used arc lamps during the silent film era, but caused a lot of eye problems to the actors due to the UV radiation. But after the 1930's anyone actually using arc-lamps for illumination purposes ? Sure, as a kid I have experimented using the carbon core of a D-size battery as an arc light electrode running from 220 V with some current limiting, but after a while, this was not too interesting :-( I was a movie theater usher back in the 1970's. The projectors used carbon arc lamps. Not sure if that counts as being for "illumination," though... -- One Bell System - it sometimes works. |
#21
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
[email protected] wrote:
On Thu, 3 May 2012 02:26:10 +0100, "Arfa wrote: These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. That's the idea I'd like to try. We have two Chauvet Q Spots that do something similar with a bright white LED, though I doubt the particular LED they use would be bright enough. It seems to be mounted directly to a heat sink if I remember right, and if it *has* to be mounted on a heat sink that would be a big problem. But if it could be mounted on an extending piece of metal even if it has to be perforated or whatever, it seems it could then be put through the reflector and positioned wherever it needs to be. It would take some thought and work to make such an adaptor, but then the fixture would be good to go again using a lot less power, creating a lot less heat and the resulting damage from heat, and there would be no need to buy bulbs again instead of every six months or so. Also fixtures wouldn't be shut down by problems with lamping on, which is the biggest problem we have with our fixtures. From what I understand, two of our electronic ballast Mac 500s are not worth fixing because the ballast costs $1300+, even though the rest of both fixtures seem to be in good condition. Something else. The Mac 101s kick ass with a nice solid beam in pretty much all colors. Do you know what wattage LEDs they are? Someone told me 3 watt, but I haven't been able to find where it says that specifically. Anyway, I would like to find some LED "par can" type fixtures that put out a similar beam, and I've seen 3 watt LED pars advertised but don't know if it would be the same or not. The idea is that if we can get some of those, we could strip our old messed up 600s down pretty much to the frame and mount the LED pars in them to get something similar to the 101s. They would be run as two different fixtures, but we'd only have to fool with pan and tilt on the 600s part... So do you know of any LED pars, the cheap type from China, that might do the job? Or what specifically I should look for in an attempt to find them? You have some contrary ideas. Start with some FACTs. 1) ALL light-emitting devices create HEAT as they are NOT 100% efficient (this includes that nearby star that we call the sun). 2) All solid-state light emitters (incandescent, LED) work at higher efficiency, longer life, and better color balance when the generated heat is removed. 3) LED emitters are rather sensitive to the semiconductor temperature; the color spectrum and lifetime being the most affected. 4) EXCESS heating of the LED die will severely shorten its lifetime and mess up the color spectrum during use. Remote heatsinks, like what you propose, is contrary to the efficiency and life you seem to expect. Take a bare die "1 watt" LED and run it - you might get in the region of 100mW before the die gets too hot. Put it on a heavy copper heatsink and you may get 1.5 watts of operation before the die gets too hot. Then mount it on a LARGE TE cooler running to get its surface towards -20C or better; that might allow 2 watts of operation (wild guesses here). The reflector system could be separate from the LED, but the mechanical designs of the LED mounting, LED heatsink(s) and the reflector(s) need careful integration (design engineering anyone?) for the particular use in mind. There are extremely bright LED fixtures / systems made to replace street lights that are at least the equal to halogen fixtures (for the same purpose). |
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Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, Is that addressed to me ? Not sure that I'm following exactly what you're asking ?? Are you assuming that these particular lamps come built into a reflector assembly like the ones that go in back-projector TVs for instance ? If so, the answer is no. These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. Some of the higher powered lamps have a screw connection at either end and a bulge in the outer envelope over the discharge tube. These fit in a simple clamp that holds the discharge area of the lamp at the focal point of the reflector. Google for instance MSD 250 and HTI 1200 to see pictures Arfa So more like the more standardised industrial floodlight application and consequential sensible pricing. Rather than the compactified projector TV situation of somewhat power-for-power standardised bare bulbs, but cemented into myriad shapes and sizes of reflectors that then fit and connect into customised enclosures Yes, pretty much. Google those two types that I said, and you will see exactly what they look like. Twenty to forty quid for a no-name, depending on power rating. A bit more for a Philips or Osram Arfa |
#23
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
[email protected] wrote in message ... On Thu, 3 May 2012 02:26:10 +0100, "Arfa Daily" wrote: These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. That's the idea I'd like to try. We have two Chauvet Q Spots that do something similar with a bright white LED, though I doubt the particular LED they use would be bright enough. It seems to be mounted directly to a heat sink if I remember right, and if it *has* to be mounted on a heat sink that would be a big problem. But if it could be mounted on an extending piece of metal even if it has to be perforated or whatever, it seems it could then be put through the reflector and positioned wherever it needs to be. It would take some thought and work to make such an adaptor, but then the fixture would be good to go again using a lot less power, creating a lot less heat and the resulting damage from heat, and there would be no need to buy bulbs again instead of every six months or so. Also fixtures wouldn't be shut down by problems with lamping on, which is the biggest problem we have with our fixtures. From what I understand, two of our electronic ballast Mac 500s are not worth fixing because the ballast costs $1300+, even though the rest of both fixtures seem to be in good condition. Something else. The Mac 101s kick ass with a nice solid beam in pretty much all colors. Do you know what wattage LEDs they are? Someone told me 3 watt, but I haven't been able to find where it says that specifically. Anyway, I would like to find some LED "par can" type fixtures that put out a similar beam, and I've seen 3 watt LED pars advertised but don't know if it would be the same or not. The idea is that if we can get some of those, we could strip our old messed up 600s down pretty much to the frame and mount the LED pars in them to get something similar to the 101s. They would be run as two different fixtures, but we'd only have to fool with pan and tilt on the 600s part... So do you know of any LED pars, the cheap type from China, that might do the job? Or what specifically I should look for in an attempt to find them? High power LEDs definitely need cooling. Sometimes, it's done through a special PCB that has an internal metal layer, but 'proper' high power examples require screwing down to decent sized metal heatsinks. Also, in order to get best efficiency and life from the LEDs, they prefer to be pulse driven, so that's some additional electronics that's required. I also don't think that you would get much success trying to substitute a flat plane light source like a LED, into optics that have been designed to work with a short arc discharge lamp that emits light in pretty much every direction except at the very ends. The eliptical reflector is designed to collect light from this type of source, and focus it into a loose forward beam that is then distance-focused by the multistage lens system at the front. Presumably for that sort of money, the ballast is electronic ? If so, just repair it and save yourself $1200. Most ballast faults that I've had, are down to failed power semiconductors. No great shakes to find or replace. Also, in contrast to most manufacturers of electronic equipment these days, I've found lighting manufacturers to be quite helpful in terms of service information. I'm not sure how Martin are in this regard, but it would be worth an ask. Arfa |
#24
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"Robert Baer" wrote in message net... JB wrote: [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, I work in a nightclub and we have a bunch of old moving lights that still work okay except for lamp problems. They use arc lamps and it's not worth the cost it would take to get them in condition to fire the lamps again, plus there is the cost of the lamps, the cost of electricity to run them, and the damage that the heat does... I would like to try finding a really bright white LED light source to see if we can position it and make it work in our fixtures, if that's a practical thing to attempt. Can anyone tell me where I can find some bright LED light sources that might be suitable to try? Sadly the optics in these type of 'moving light' projectors are not suited to an LED retrofit, either optically or thermally. Quite apart from the the high lumen output of the high pressure lamps currently in your projectors [at least 10x to 20x that of a typical high power LED array], the arc size is extremely small to facilitate good optical control [an LED array of the similar lumens would be ~50mm diameter and useless for imaging optics]. Basically an optical system has to be designed specifically for an LED source for it to work correctly. The optics in your projectors are designed specifically for short-arc, high pressure metal halide or ultra high pressure mercury lamps, and are superb at what they do. Although as you rightly say, the maintenenace isn't cheap. JB You sound like you know nothing about CARBON ARC lamps.. I keep seeing mention of carbon arc lamps popping up in the thread. Where do these come into the equation ? I thought they pretty much went out of use with 1970's movie house projectors ? Arfa |
#25
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
Arfa Daily wrote in message
... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote in message ... "JB" wrote in message ... [email protected] wrote in message ... Hi, Is that addressed to me ? Not sure that I'm following exactly what you're asking ?? Are you assuming that these particular lamps come built into a reflector assembly like the ones that go in back-projector TVs for instance ? If so, the answer is no. These moving heads have the reflector as part of the fixed optics. The lamp is 'bare' and fits into a ceramic holder that is then fixed in some way behind the reflector, such that the lamp pokes through the centre hole in the reflector to a distance where the internal quartz glass discharge tube sits at the focal point. Some of the higher powered lamps have a screw connection at either end and a bulge in the outer envelope over the discharge tube. These fit in a simple clamp that holds the discharge area of the lamp at the focal point of the reflector. Google for instance MSD 250 and HTI 1200 to see pictures Arfa So more like the more standardised industrial floodlight application and consequential sensible pricing. Rather than the compactified projector TV situation of somewhat power-for-power standardised bare bulbs, but cemented into myriad shapes and sizes of reflectors that then fit and connect into customised enclosures Yes, pretty much. Google those two types that I said, and you will see exactly what they look like. Twenty to forty quid for a no-name, depending on power rating. A bit more for a Philips or Osram Arfa compared to the 300 or 400 squid for the much the same active element fire-cemented into a customised reflector for a projection system |
#26
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
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#27
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
I keep seeing mention of carbon arc lamps popping up
in the thread. Where do these come into the equation? They came into the equation when the original poster used the term "arc lamp". As the article says... "In popular use, the term arc lamp means carbon arc lamp only." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_lamp |
#28
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
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#29
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... I keep seeing mention of carbon arc lamps popping up in the thread. Where do these come into the equation? They came into the equation when the original poster used the term "arc lamp". As the article says... "In popular use, the term arc lamp means carbon arc lamp only." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_lamp Ah, I see. A misunderstanding of the OP's not-quite-precise definition of his lamp type. He was of course referring to a short-arc discharge lamp, which is a fundamentally AC device, with an arc maintained between a pair of tungsten electrodes set into a gas-filled quartz discharge tube, as opposed to a pair of carbon rods normally fed from a low voltage high current DC source. I'm not sure that the Wiki article is strictly up to date with the technology, as surely, any lamp based on an arc being maintained between two electrodes, irrespective of the specific technology involved, must qualify in strict definition, as an "arc lamp", mustn't it ? Arfa |
#30
Posted to sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,sci.electronics.repair
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
I keep seeing mention of carbon arc lamps popping up
in the thread. Where do these come into the equation? They came into the equation when the original poster used the term "arc lamp". As the article says... "In popular use, the term arc lamp means carbon arc lamp only." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_lamp Ah, I see. A misunderstanding of the OP's not-quite-precise definition of his lamp type. He was of course referring to a short-arc discharge lamp, which is a fundamentally AC device, with an arc maintained between a pair of tungsten electrodes set into a gas-filled quartz discharge tube, as opposed to a pair of carbon rods normally fed from a low voltage high current DC source. I'm not sure that the Wiki article is strictly up to date with the technology, as surely, any lamp based on an arc being maintained between two electrodes, irrespective of the specific technology involved, must qualify in strict definition, as an "arc lamp", mustn't it? Yes, and that's /exactly/ what the article says. All lamps -- including fluorescents -- that strike an arc between electrodes, are arc lamps. Note the phrasing -- "In popular use..." I'm glad I read the article. (I even rewrote bits of it.) I didn't know how ballasts are used to start a fluorescent. (I'm still confused as to how a device in parallel with the lamp can limit current through it. But let's not get started.) |
#31
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How to find super bright, white, LEDs?
For a video projector system where the illumination is directed down a
mirrored light tunnel onto the active silicon DLP or whatever , I wonder how much light is wasted from a mercury arc source and a reflector. The ones I've seen the area of the colour wheel / light tunnel is perhaps 10 percent of the open aperture end of the reflector and as the bulb is not a point source perhaps only something like 10 percent is used. With a bank of LEDs the directionality is ideal , you can mount on the surcace of a sphere and direct them all , individually , at the wanted area. |
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