Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On Apr 13, 2:06*pm, News wrote:
We have a little net book, running XP, and it is a lovely little machine
for browsing the web, reading mail etc. *Works perfectly except when
rebooted, which I only do after MS updates.

When shut down, for any reason, it will not restart until the battery
has run down, and I mean completely flat. *Every little volt. *Removing
the battery does not help - the battery has to be in place, but
completely expired, which normally takes a couple of days. *Then, with
the charger plugged in, it will boot normally and run perfectly, either
from battery or mains until the next upgrade/shut down.

The battery itself seems to be OK - it will run the machine for several
hours, which is all it managed when the machine was new a couple of
years ago.

Any thoughts?


Maybe try an OS with more uptime I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

In message
, NT
writes
On Apr 13, 2:06*pm, News wrote:

When shut down, for any reason, it will not restart until the battery
has run down, and I mean completely flat. *Every little volt. *Removing
the battery does not help - the battery has to be in place, but
completely expired, which normally takes a couple of days. *Then, with
the charger plugged in, it will boot normally and run perfectly, either
from battery or mains until the next upgrade/shut down.


Maybe try an OS with more uptime


grin Perhaps strangely, uptime has never been a problem. The only
time I reboot is following installation of MS updates.

I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


OK, thanks.
--
Graeme
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:18:22 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

On Apr 13, 2:06*pm, News wrote:
We have a little net book, running XP, and it is a lovely little machine
for browsing the web, reading mail etc. *Works perfectly except when
rebooted, which I only do after MS updates.

When shut down, for any reason, it will not restart until the battery
has run down, and I mean completely flat. *Every little volt. *Removing
the battery does not help - the battery has to be in place, but
completely expired, which normally takes a couple of days. *Then, with
the charger plugged in, it will boot normally and run perfectly, either
from battery or mains until the next upgrade/shut down.

The battery itself seems to be OK - it will run the machine for several
hours, which is all it managed when the machine was new a couple of
years ago.

Any thoughts?


Maybe try an OS with more uptime I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


A little more infomation perhaps?
Anything on the screen, does it do the initial POST, any error
messages?

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

In message , Graham.
writes
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:18:22 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

Maybe try an OS with more uptime I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


A little more infomation perhaps?
Anything on the screen, does it do the initial POST, any error
messages?


Sorry. Absolutely nothing. The power light comes on, but the screen
does not react. No messages, no beeps, nothing.
--
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On Apr 13, 2:41*pm, News wrote:
In message
, NT
writes

On Apr 13, 2:06*pm, News wrote:


When shut down, for any reason, it will not restart until the battery
has run down, and I mean completely flat. *Every little volt. *Removing
the battery does not help - the battery has to be in place, but
completely expired, which normally takes a couple of days. *Then, with
the charger plugged in, it will boot normally and run perfectly, either
from battery or mains until the next upgrade/shut down.


Maybe try an OS with more uptime


grin *Perhaps strangely, uptime has never been a problem. *The only
time I reboot is following installation of MS updates.

I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


OK, thanks.


It sounds like uptime is one half of the problem. Frequent updates
result in downtime each time. Hopefully you've fixed it now, if not
though I'd simply switch off autoupdates if its not a security
critical machine, or if it is, try a few linux live CDs to see if
something more stable suits you. Mint 7 is a good replacement for xp,
and can happily keep running weeks at a time with a 2G swap partition
(the bigger the swap, the more uptime). Support has ended for 7, so no
updates, and seldom any reason to reboot.


NT


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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

News wrote:
In message , Graham.
writes
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:18:22 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

Maybe try an OS with more uptime I've no idea re the fault, best to
ask on sci.electronics.repair.


A little more infomation perhaps?
Anything on the screen, does it do the initial POST, any error
messages?


Sorry. Absolutely nothing. The power light comes on, but the screen does
not react. No messages, no beeps, nothing.


Personally I dunno. Apparently others have gotten their units to boot
by freezing them (in a real freezer) before booting up.

This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...t-492391.html:

" Toshiba NB200 won't boot
I have found a fix for this. I do computer repair for a living and have now
repaired two nb200's with this fault. Here's how:

1) Get the computer to post and boot. There's a few ways to do this if it will NEVER post. You can leave the computer
off for around 2 months. I had one which never posted no matter what I tried. After leaving it sit around for about 2
months, I tried again and it posted and booted, but once it warmed up again it wouldn't post again. You can also try
putting it in your car overnight to cool it down, or lastly you can try the freezer trick. Once you have it booted to
windows, DON'T restart or power down as it may not post again.

2) Download the latest BIOS update for your NB200 which is v2.1. Make sure it's for the correct part number which can be
found on the back of your nb200.

3) Connect your power lead and make sure the nb200 has at least 50% charge.

4) Install the v2.1 BIOS update.

Both nb200's I have repaired like this would only post intermittently before this v2.1 BIOS update. As I mentioned, 1 of
them wouldn't post at all for two months. Both nb200's were initially running the v1.2 BIOS. Immediately after this v2.1
update, both nb200's post and boot every time, even when i have left them running near a heater in a hot room. Basically
fixed.

You can find out what BIOS version you have on the main page of the BIOS setup screen.

So, get it to boot, and flash to the latest bios update."



--Winston
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

In message , Winston
writes

This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.

Cheers,
--
Graeme
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Winston
writes

This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).

If there is an accessible battery (probably not) then pull it and leave for
a week might do the same job. Or there may even be a way to force clearing
the BIOS on boot.

Paul DS

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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On Apr 19, 10:02*am, "Paul D Smith" wrote:
"News" wrote in message

...

In message , Winston
writes


This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. *Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).

If there is an accessible battery (probably not) then pull it and leave for
a week might do the same job. *Or there may even be a way to force clearing
the BIOS on boot.

Paul DS


Talking ********.

The BIOS is in Flash memory. You don't want to clear that.

MBQ
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On 19/04/2012 11:57, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Apr 19, 10:02 am, "Paul D wrote:
wrote in message

...

In , Winston
writes


This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).

If there is an accessible battery (probably not) then pull it and leave for
a week might do the same job. Or there may even be a way to force clearing
the BIOS on boot.

Paul DS


Talking ********.


I don't think he is actually.

The BIOS is in Flash memory. You don't want to clear that.


I think you will find he is referring to the BIOS Data Area data which
are held in a small amount of storage maintained in battery backed CMOS
RAM.

It has nothing to do with the Flash memory used to hold the BIOS program
code itself.

The BIOS Data area is typically copied to main ram (at 0040:0000h)
during system boot. It contains (as well as other stuff) the equipment
list, and configuration of the basic hardware like what drives are
attached, the base address of serial ports etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\================================================= ================/


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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On Apr 19, 3:30*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 19/04/2012 11:57, Man at B&Q wrote:









On Apr 19, 10:02 am, "Paul D *wrote:
*wrote in message


...


In , Winston
*writes


This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. *Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).


If there is an accessible battery (probably not) then pull it and leave for
a week might do the same job. *Or there may even be a way to force clearing
the BIOS on boot.


Paul DS


Talking ********.


I don't think he is actually.

The BIOS is in Flash memory. You don't want to clear that.


I think you will find he is referring to the BIOS Data Area


I know that. He should refer to things properly.

data which
are held in a small amount of storage maintained in battery backed CMOS
RAM.

It has nothing to do with the Flash memory used to hold the BIOS program
code itself.


The code in the Flash *is* "the BIOS". When you update "the BIOS" you
are updating the code in the Flash, not the contents of the "CMOS" as
it is sometimes referred to.

MBQ

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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

On 19/04/2012 16:04, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Apr 19, 3:30 pm, John wrote:
On 19/04/2012 11:57, Man at B&Q wrote:









On Apr 19, 10:02 am, "Paul D wrote:
wrote in message


...


In , Winston
writes


This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).


If there is an accessible battery (probably not) then pull it and leave for
a week might do the same job. Or there may even be a way to force clearing
the BIOS on boot.


Paul DS


Talking ********.


I don't think he is actually.

The BIOS is in Flash memory. You don't want to clear that.


I think you will find he is referring to the BIOS Data Area


I know that. He should refer to things properly.

data which
are held in a small amount of storage maintained in battery backed CMOS
RAM.

It has nothing to do with the Flash memory used to hold the BIOS program
code itself.


The code in the Flash *is* "the BIOS". When you update "the BIOS" you
are updating the code in the Flash, not the contents of the "CMOS" as
it is sometimes referred to.


Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.


That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.

Geoff.



--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
In 1969 the US could put a man on the moon, now teenagers just howl at it. :-(


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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200


Paul D Smith wrote:

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Winston
writes

This looks interesting from
http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...wont-boot-4923
91.html:


Thanks for that. Yes, I followed that advice, upgraded the BIOS and it
has behaved perfectly since then.


Both the solutions (freeze or leave for long time) sound like ways of
clearing the BIOS (freezing car radios used to be a way to clear their
security codes!).



Then they would be cleared every time they sat outside for fifteen
minutes in some places. -40F was common when I lived in Alaska.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
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"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.


That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.



It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


--
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Default Booting problem - Toshiba Netbook NB200

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.repair.]
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


There is a difference between an explanation making sense, and doing it.
:-)

Besides, that may not be possible, it may be an integrated CMOS chip and
battery.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
In 1969 the US could put a man on the moon, now teenagers just howl at it. :-(


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On 19/04/2012 19:14, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.


That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.



It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


Many motherboards have a jumper for doing just this (easier than
removing the cell from its holder). Laptops not always as easy.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.repair.]
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


There is a difference between an explanation making sense, and doing it.
:-)

Besides, that may not be possible, it may be an integrated CMOS chip and
battery.



I haven't seen them since the early Pentium days. (Late '90s) In
fact, I have pulled the cover off some of those old Dallas RTC modules
to remove the dead cell and installed an external socket for the new
cell. It was mounted on a small piece of perf board and screwed to one
of the blank filler plates. That was over 10 years ago and I don't
remember seeing any, since then.

I used CapStore RAM to replace those annoying battery backed 2k*8
modules. It had flash RAM, Static RAM and a supercap to allow it to
write the contents of the static RAM to the Flash RAM when power was
lost. On powerup, it wrote the contents back to the Static RAM. That
was for a communications system we built for the space station. Those
lithium cells were banned from all aerospace equipment built for NASA.


--
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John Rumm wrote:

On 19/04/2012 19:14, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.

That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.



It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


Many motherboards have a jumper for doing just this (easier than
removing the cell from its holder). Laptops not always as easy.



I've repaired hundereds of desktop computers.

I have a fairly new Dell laptop with a bad cell. You have to take
the damn thing into over 20 pieces to get to it, when it would have been
simple to put it under one of the covers on the bottom, or under the
battery pack.


--
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On 20/04/2012 14:44, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

On 19/04/2012 19:14, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.

That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.


It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.


Many motherboards have a jumper for doing just this (easier than
removing the cell from its holder). Laptops not always as easy.



I've repaired hundereds of desktop computers.

I have a fairly new Dell laptop with a bad cell. You have to take
the damn thing into over 20 pieces to get to it, when it would have been
simple to put it under one of the covers on the bottom, or under the
battery pack.


There seems to be a *huge* variety of the serviceability of laptops
these days... I had a couple recently where the CPU cooler was choked
with dust and the fan running poorly. On one (IIRC a stinkpad) you had
the have the whole thing to bits in order to get at the right side of
the motherboard. On the other (a dell I think) you could take a flap off
the bottom, release 4 screws and the whole cooler assembly and heatpipes
etc just lifted clear.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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John Rumm wrote:

On 20/04/2012 14:44, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

On 19/04/2012 19:14, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yes I realise all that. However I got the impression (admittedly reading
a little between the lines) that Paul was really referring to the CMOS
battery backed storage rather than the flash, since corrupt CMOS data
can bork a machine on startup... however I will let him confirm one way
or another.

That would make a lot of sense. The CMOS RAM needs power to retain its
contents and it is likely kept going by a lithium battery. Lithium batteries
put out less power when cold, and if allowed to cool in a freezer will
stop completely causing the memory to reinitalize when restarted.


It makes a lot more sense to remove the lithium cell and short out
the battery holder.

Many motherboards have a jumper for doing just this (easier than
removing the cell from its holder). Laptops not always as easy.



I've repaired hundereds of desktop computers.

I have a fairly new Dell laptop with a bad cell. You have to take
the damn thing into over 20 pieces to get to it, when it would have been
simple to put it under one of the covers on the bottom, or under the
battery pack.


There seems to be a *huge* variety of the serviceability of laptops
these days... I had a couple recently where the CPU cooler was choked
with dust and the fan running poorly. On one (IIRC a stinkpad) you had
the have the whole thing to bits in order to get at the right side of
the motherboard. On the other (a dell I think) you could take a flap off
the bottom, release 4 screws and the whole cooler assembly and heatpipes
etc just lifted clear.



It's annoying, after manufacturing commercial equipment that was
designed to be serviced. A philips screwdriver was all you needed to
open the case and remove any module to repair locally or return to the
factory. I talked a Ph.D. in Antarctica through a repair, over the
internet in 2000. It was a telemetry receiver needed to continue their
experiments. They damaged it in shipment, and it would have taken a
year to return it to the factory for us to repair it, then send it back
on their next supply ship.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
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