Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Automotive battery charging

I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny
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Default Automotive battery charging

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:59:07 AM UTC-7, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


Gee, does he mean that for all the years that cars used generators they were doing it wrong? Even alternators are 3 phase so the 'ripple' on the DC output is relatively much smaller than a 1/2 wave rectified output.
Solar charging is also pretty much pure DC.
One charging method I have heard of that does make some sense is to charge for, say, 10 minutes and then discharge at the same rate for, say, 30 seconds then a short rest then charging again. I do not know if this has any benefit, but it does waste energy.

Neil S
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Default Automotive battery charging

klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


That's what I understand. I know there is battery FAQ out there. Check if
that's in there.

Greg
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Default Automotive battery charging

A lot of mysticism/voodoo exists wrt lead/acid battery charging and
handling.

The old "law" that a battery will be ruined if left to sit on a concrete
floor will probably live on indefinitely.

Some folks will strongly defend the rectified AC charger method, while
others will dismiss it as being a non-issue.
See the desulfator (desulphator) discussion started on the 25th, and/or read
about their use of pulses to extend useful lead/acid battery life.

The which-is-faster or which-is-better debates continue as instant
gratification becomes more popular.
Manufacturers want consumers to believe their products are extra durable and
recharge faster than any other, as an incentive to purchasing and profits.

Charging lead/acid batteries slowly and completely has always been the best
method.

The average consumer generally doesn't own enough of one brand/type of
batteries to be able to establish meaningful statistical data (numerous
identical vehicles all with batteries of the same brand, type, age and
usage).. but fleet maintenance shops often do.

Over the years, the people I've known that were frequently replacing their
car batteries have been the ones that let the battery go dead (from leaving
lights on or various electrical problems), then jump the battery to get the
car going, and never put the battery on a charger.

Aside from manufacturing defects or accidental damage, negligence and abuse
are the factors that kill batteries.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"klem kedidelhopper" wrote in message
...
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


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Default Automotive battery charging

On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


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Default Automotive battery charging

Wild_Bill wrote:
A lot of mysticism/voodoo exists wrt lead/acid battery charging and handling.


Yes.

Aside from manufacturing defects or accidental damage, negligence and abuse are the factors that kill batteries.


Some abuse comes in the form of 'preventive maintenance'.

Occasionally I hear a recommendation to put a slurry of
baking soda and water on top of my car battery to
neutralize the acid that builds up.

That was never particularly a good idea and now it is
a very bad idea because of the way modern batteries are
made. Years ago, batteries actually had a raised rim around
each cap opening that tended to prevent junk from falling
into the cells:
http://acarbattery.com/wp-content/up...teryWater2.jpg

Modern batteries don't have that feature and will funnel
crap into the cells. That soda slurry on the top of the
battery will get flushed into into it and ruin the battery
sooner or later, I guarantee.
http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH..._CARBAT_03.JPG

A gentle drizzling of tap water from the garden hose on
top of the Closed battery while scrubbing with a disposable
brush will neutralize the acid quickly and safely.

As always, wear "work clothes" and protective eyewear
when working on car batteries.

--Winston
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Default Automotive battery charging

mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.

Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.

- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby them
- big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.

that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need them.

I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger that
failed with the series regulator going dead short.

They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of the
batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back to the
smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy back the new
ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they didn't want to get
fired, and somebody does count them up.

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Default Automotive battery charging

I bought my Craftsmen riding mower in 2005. Just started it up again for
this season with full cranking power. The battery is the original battery
that came with the mower a Diehard. I do keep the mower in our basement
when it's not in use. 7 years not bad for a mower battery.

Eddie

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.

Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.

- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby them
- big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.

that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need them.

I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger that
failed with the series regulator going dead short.

They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of the
batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back to the
smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy back the new
ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they didn't want to get
fired, and somebody does count them up.

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Default Automotive battery charging

The soda paste won't do much harm to a side-terminal battery, though.

Back when engine crankcases were vented (breather caps) into the engine
compartment/atmosphere, batteries in cars with high mileage would generally
get covered with an accumulation of crud, so perodic cleaning of the tops of
the cases was generally required since the accumulation could present a
conductive path for discharging.

Many folks apply grease or those treated felt washers to the top-post type
batteries, but I just prefer to keep them clean.. an occasional brushing
with a terminal cleaner can prevent unexpected problems.

You're right about taking personal protection precautions any time battery
maintenance/service is performed.
I think anyone who's done their own car work/service has been surprised at
finding holes in their freshly laundered clothes, which weren't there
before.

I always like to get the baking soda before starting, just in case, and an
ample supply of fresh water should be a standard practice.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Wild_Bill wrote:
A lot of mysticism/voodoo exists wrt lead/acid battery charging and
handling.


Yes.

Aside from manufacturing defects or accidental damage, negligence and
abuse are the factors that kill batteries.


Some abuse comes in the form of 'preventive maintenance'.

Occasionally I hear a recommendation to put a slurry of
baking soda and water on top of my car battery to
neutralize the acid that builds up.

That was never particularly a good idea and now it is
a very bad idea because of the way modern batteries are
made. Years ago, batteries actually had a raised rim around
each cap opening that tended to prevent junk from falling
into the cells:
http://acarbattery.com/wp-content/up...teryWater2.jpg

Modern batteries don't have that feature and will funnel
crap into the cells. That soda slurry on the top of the
battery will get flushed into into it and ruin the battery
sooner or later, I guarantee.
http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH..._CARBAT_03.JPG

A gentle drizzling of tap water from the garden hose on
top of the Closed battery while scrubbing with a disposable
brush will neutralize the acid quickly and safely.

As always, wear "work clothes" and protective eyewear
when working on car batteries.

--Winston


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Default Automotive battery charging

Cydrome Leader wrote in
:

mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.

Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.

- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby them
- big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.

that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need them.

I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger that
failed with the series regulator going dead short.

They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of the
batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back to the
smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy back the new
ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they didn't want to get
fired, and somebody does count them up.



Of course,they count them.

the trick is to have substitutes to -swap- for the good ones you want. B-)
the loaders don't care as long as the numbers all add up.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


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Default Automotive battery charging

Wild_Bill wrote:
The soda paste won't do much harm to a side-terminal battery, though.


Drizzling chocolate syrup over the top of a side-terminal
battery won't do it much harm, either.

It has far less possibility of ruining the battery than
does soda paste, yet I don't see a lot of people turning
their battery into a sundae, with or without whipped cream.


Back when engine crankcases were vented (breather caps) into the engine compartment/atmosphere, batteries in cars with
high mileage would generally get covered with an accumulation of crud, so perodic cleaning of the tops of the cases was
generally required since the accumulation could present a conductive path for discharging.

Many folks apply grease or those treated felt washers to the top-post type batteries, but I just prefer to keep them
clean.. an occasional brushing with a terminal cleaner can prevent unexpected problems.

You're right about taking personal protection precautions any time battery maintenance/service is performed.
I think anyone who's done their own car work/service has been surprised at finding holes in their freshly laundered
clothes, which weren't there before.

I always like to get the baking soda before starting, just in case, and an ample supply of fresh water should be a
standard practice.


Yup. Fresh water is highly underrated.

--Winston
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Default Automotive battery charging

Jim Yanik wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote in
:

mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny

The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.

Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.

- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby them
- big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.

that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need them.

I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger that
failed with the series regulator going dead short.

They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of the
batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back to the
smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy back the new
ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they didn't want to get
fired, and somebody does count them up.



Of course,they count them.

the trick is to have substitutes to -swap- for the good ones you want. B-)
the loaders don't care as long as the numbers all add up.


last pile of duds I had went into the alley. Scrappers snatched them up
pretty fast.
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Default Automotive battery charging

On Mar 29, 4:54*pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote in
:


mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about battery
charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive off my
bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated DC is not
the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said that half wave
rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of "dentrites" that
can eventually extend and short out the plates. This is the first I've
ever heard of this. Does anyone have any further insight on this? Lenny


The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.


there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.


Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.


- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby them
- big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.


that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need them.


I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger that
failed with the series regulator going dead short.


They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of the
batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back to the
smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy back the new
ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they didn't want to get
fired, and somebody does count them up.


Of course,they count them.


the trick is to have substitutes to -swap- for the good ones you want. B-)
the loaders don't care as long as the numbers all add up.


last pile of duds I had went into the alley. Scrappers snatched them up
pretty fast.


I picked up a nice big gently used Emergency lighting/UPS battery
three years ago for 35.00 from Batteries Plus locally. I had to
convert the terminals to side mounts and it was a bit over sized for
my van but I got it in and it has worked flawlessly in Summer and
Winter, (New Hampshire). It tested out well over the equivalent of
1000CCA. Ive run it down a few times too accidentally and it has come
back with no problem, (charged off my regulated bench power supply at
3.0 A). Lenny
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Default Automotive battery charging

Cydrome Leader wrote in
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote in
:

mike wrote:
On 3/27/2012 4:59 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I'm having a discussion on another group with someone about
battery charging. I often charge my batteries including automotive
off my bench power supply. He was telling me that smooth regulated
DC is not the best thing to use for charging batteries. He said
that half wave rectified unfiltered DC will prevent the growth of
"dentrites" that can eventually extend and short out the plates.
This is the first I've ever heard of this. Does anyone have any
further insight on this? Lenny

The dendrite thing is what shorts sealed NiCd batteries.
"burp charging" is said to reduce that problem.

there are a variety of "desulfator" gadgets for lead acid batteries.

Here's what I've learned about lead acid batteries.

- small ones suck and die in a few years, no matter how you baby
them - big ones last longer and are expensive to replace.
- more and more batteries are from china and just pure crap.

that's really it. They all go bad in the end, usually when you need
them.

I blew up my set of UPS-270 batteries by charging them on a charger
that failed with the series regulator going dead short.

They just replaced several tons of UPS batteries at work. Some of
the batteries were only months old, but they're still all going back
to the smelter as part of the trade in agreement. I tried to buy
back the new ones from the guys loading up the pallets, but they
didn't want to get fired, and somebody does count them up.



Of course,they count them.

the trick is to have substitutes to -swap- for the good ones you
want. B-) the loaders don't care as long as the numbers all add up.


last pile of duds I had went into the alley. Scrappers snatched them
up pretty fast.


yeah,metals prices have climbed quite a bit;last time I needed a new car
battery,the prices were at least 50% higher.

but if you think you'll get another opportunity to score on a all-out
swap,then save a few duds in anticipation of that day.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
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