Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the
pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6
bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting
off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my
earlier posts, here it is :

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866

It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm
reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit
it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the
taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where
it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes,
and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends,
after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were
going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is
exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive
comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of
the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a
correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical'
section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm
hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that
is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely
separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a
corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to
go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online
instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it.

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical
seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of
the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg
flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding
seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side
was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got
worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter
turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully
aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent
it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of
difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to
be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the
seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was
about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I
put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And
still it leaked ...

Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting
out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm
reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety
net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ...

With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over
the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive
is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again,
and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with
it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be
removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to
come off ...

Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be
clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the
reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on.

AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!!

No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of
the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time
marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe
back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously
purchased ...

As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have
failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is
actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is
that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or
else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY
plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't
ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but
compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure
what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in
between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful.
Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong,
or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge
fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the
pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the
6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from
lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in
my earlier posts, here it is :

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866

It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm
reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit
it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the
taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe
where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the
pipes, and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe
ends, after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they
were going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is
exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive
comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of
the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a
correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a
'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to
a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the
adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a
completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a
corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face
to go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the
online instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and
describe it.

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the
conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner
part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time,
the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the
corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure
side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just
got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a
quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I
am fully aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it
and prevent it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a
jot of difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor
seemed to be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare
and the seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as
that was about the only place that I could see that water could be getting
past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back
up. And still it leaked ...

Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting
out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm
reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety
net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ...

With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives
over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and
the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the
cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of
the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original
reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped
to the pipe, never to come off ...

Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be
clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the
reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on.

AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!!

No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of
the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time
marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe
back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously
purchased ...

As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have
failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is
actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is
that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats,
or else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of
DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I
don't ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any
means, but compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm
not sure what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O
ring in between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be
successful. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm
doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the
pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3
bar output.

Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:



"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit
the pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to
stop the 6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water
heater, from lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't
seen the valve in my earlier posts, here it is :

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866

It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15
mm reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are
going to fit it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the
water, on go the taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out
of the 15 mm pipe where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the
compression nuts over the pipes, and then put the two sections of the
reducing olives over the pipe ends, after carefully studying the
supplied diagram to make sure that they were going in right. The
diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is exactly as you
would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive comprises a
'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of the
valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a
correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a
'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite
way to a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece
of the adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There
is then a completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm
deep, that has a corresponding conical seat inside its front face,
and a square rear face to go against the inside face of the
compression nut. Unfortunately, the online instruction sheet doesn't
show this, so I've had to try and describe it.

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the
conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the
inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the
same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up
against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low
pressure side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in,
the day just got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up
more than about a quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously
gripped the pipe, as I am fully aware that over-tightening a
compression fitting can distort it and prevent it sealing. So I
carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of difference. Water
off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to be tightly
pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the seat in
the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was
about the only place that I could see that water could be getting
past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted
back up. And still it leaked ...

Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was
getting out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22
to 15 mm reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end.
As a safety net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers.
Glad I did ...

With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional
olives over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice
fit, and the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out
with the cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the
new length of the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to
allow the original reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these
are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to come off ...

Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be
clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of
the reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water
back on.

AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!!

No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or
kicking of the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve
it. So, with time marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted
a piece of 15 mm pipe back into the gap, using those two couplers
that I had fortuitously purchased ...

As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing
have failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low
pressure side is actually worse than the high, the only conclusion
that I can come to, is that the example that I have has been machined
badly at the olive seats, or else the product overall, is a piece of
****. During over 40 years of DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most
general problems of this type, and I don't ever remember one
defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but compression
joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure what to
do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in
between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be
successful. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that
I'm doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with
the pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a
steady 3 bar output.

Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Apart from a wry smile :-)
I would be interested in the cause and solution !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Apart from a wry smile :-)
I would be interested in the cause and solution !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the
bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it
becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I
really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but
out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know
that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight'
connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression.

Arfa

On Jan 28, 9:37*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... * :-)

So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the
pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6
bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting
off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my
earlier posts, here it is :

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866

It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm
reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit
it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the
taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where
it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes,
and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends,
after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were
going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is
exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive
comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of
the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a
correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical'
section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm
hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that
is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely
separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a
corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to
go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online
instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it.

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical
seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of
the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg
flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding
seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side
was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got
worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter
turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully
aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent
it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of
difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to
be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the
seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was
about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I
put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And
still it leaked ...

Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting
out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm
reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety
net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ...

With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over
the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive
is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again,
and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with
it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be
removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to
come off ...

Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be
clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the
reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on.

AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!!

No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of
the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time
marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe
back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously
purchased ...

As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have
failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is
actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is
that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or
else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY
plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't
ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but
compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure
what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in
between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful..
Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong,
or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge
fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output.

Arfa

FWIW, I usually buy a threaded body PRV which geneally has a union nut
on one end to allow the PRV to be easily removed from the line for
serviceing. I can then use solder to thread adaptors to connect to the
piping if metal or PEX compression to thread adaptors for plastic
piping..
Take your PRV and put a valve on the output side pipe and a hose bib
fitting on the input pipe and connect it to a hose bib [or whatever
you call the tap you connect a garden hose to over there] and that
allows you to test it for leakage.
I agree, though, that I have seen far too many flare and compression
fittings that were so badly machined that they would never seal up. I
also had a gas valve in my house when I bought it [10 yeas old] that
the body was porous and the gas leaked right through. It was a very
cheezy valve made in Ch**a. To be on the safe side I replaced all the
fitings from the feed line to the controller valve to be sure of
fixing the leak, using best quality parts, naturally.

Neil S.

"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then
? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?

d;~}

Arfa

"nesesu" wrote in message
...

FWIW, I usually buy a threaded body PRV which geneally has a union nut
on one end to allow the PRV to be easily removed from the line for
serviceing. I can then use solder to thread adaptors to connect to the
piping if metal or PEX compression to thread adaptors for plastic
piping..
Take your PRV and put a valve on the output side pipe and a hose bib
fitting on the input pipe and connect it to a hose bib [or whatever
you call the tap you connect a garden hose to over there] and that
allows you to test it for leakage.
I agree, though, that I have seen far too many flare and compression
fittings that were so badly machined that they would never seal up. I
also had a gas valve in my house when I bought it [10 yeas old] that
the body was porous and the gas leaked right through. It was a very
cheezy valve made in Ch**a. To be on the safe side I replaced all the
fitings from the feed line to the controller valve to be sure of
fixing the leak, using best quality parts, naturally.

Neil S.

Hi Neil. Pretty much what I'm intending to do in terms of pressure testing.
There are all sorts of solutions I could employ. There are, for instance, 22
mm to 15 mm flexi tails available, that will screw straight onto a threaded
body such as this (like a tap (American faucet ??) connector. They make
their seal by use of a fibre or rubber washer that butts against the flat
edge of the threaded section. This means that the problem of compressing an
olive into the seat to the point where it seals, is eliminated. Of course,
it does rely on that flat face being reasonably machined, but that does
appear to be the case on this PRV, from what I can see.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
Hi Neil. Pretty much what I'm intending to do in terms of pressure testing.
There are all sorts of solutions I could employ. There are, for instance, 22
mm to 15 mm flexi tails available, that will screw straight onto a threaded
body such as this (like a tap (American faucet ??) connector. They make
their seal by use of a fibre or rubber washer that butts against the flat
edge of the threaded section. This means that the problem of compressing an
olive into the seat to the point where it seals, is eliminated. Of course,
it does rely on that flat face being reasonably machined, but that does
appear to be the case on this PRV, from what I can see.

Arfa, there are compounds that you can buy which are gaskets in a tube.
It has been over 20 years that I used them so I don't remember their name.

The one I used was a black goop that one squeeze (squoze?) out of a tube
to seal cracked or damaged automotive connectors. I used it on plumbing
connectors where one edge was no longer smooth and they worked fine.

There are two kinds, one which hardens out of the tube and one which does not.
Make sure the correct one.

Geoff.




--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:



Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Apart from a wry smile :-)
I would be interested in the cause and solution !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to
the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back
up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try
it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with
15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it
watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only
be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder
or compression.

Arfa

Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me...
Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing
water to leak through the casting from the inside.

Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot
water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I
thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In
fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into
the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that
it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted
joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem.

Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping
between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined
surface was.

The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to
replace the faulty tap.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable
then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?

d;~}

Arfa
Could be one o them paralytic oscillations

Ron

"Baron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:



Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Apart from a wry smile :-)
I would be interested in the cause and solution !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to
the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back
up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try
it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with
15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it
watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only
be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder
or compression.

Arfa

Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me...
Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing
water to leak through the casting from the inside.

Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot
water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I
thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In
fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into
the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that
it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted
joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem.

Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping
between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined
surface was.

The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to
replace the faulty tap.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Interesting. The consensus at the moment from those good folk over on UK
DIY, is that I still didn't pull it up tight enough. They reckon that the
frictional resistance of 22 mm fittings can be so high that you can pull
them up until they squeak, but in fact you are fighting this friction in the
threads, and although you think that you must have gotten it tight enough to
have seated the olive, you actually haven't. They say that the solution is
to put sealing compound on both the olive, and the threads, and this will
act as a lubricant when pulling it up, resulting in the force going into
making the joint, rather than just tightening the nut. I have also had the
thought of using a 22 mm tap connector on it. That way you get the seal from
a rubber or fibre washer against the thread end, rather than having to get a
good 'squash' of the olive onto both the pipe, and the seat in the valve
body. What thinks you to this off the wall idea ?

Arfa

Ron wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable
then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?

d;~}

Arfa
Could be one o them paralytic oscillations

Ron


As used in symphonic cisterns

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:37:55 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical
seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of
the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg
flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding
seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

I beg to differ. If I'm decoding your posting correctly, you have
both a flared end on a copper pipe, as well as a compression fitting
(ferrule or olive), on the same copper pipe. That's not going to
work. The flare and the ferrule are pulling against each other as you
tighten the nut. My guess(tm) is that you have a valve that will take
EITHER a flare end (which requires a flaring tool), or a compression
fitting, but not both.

Incidentally, I hate plumbing.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Ron" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable
then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?

d;~}

Arfa
Could be one o them paralytic oscillations

Ron


I used to get those a lot when I was younger, and drank a lot on Friday
nights. I oscillated continuously between being upright and flat on my back
.... :-)

Arfa

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote in message
...
On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable
then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?

d;~}

Arfa
Could be one o them paralytic oscillations

Ron


As used in symphonic cisterns



I've got one of those as well. Sings a really pretty tune as it fills ...

Arfa

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:37:55 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the
conical
seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of
the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg
flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding
seat in the valve body, to form a seal.

I beg to differ. If I'm decoding your posting correctly, you have
both a flared end on a copper pipe, as well as a compression fitting
(ferrule or olive), on the same copper pipe. That's not going to
work. The flare and the ferrule are pulling against each other as you
tighten the nut. My guess(tm) is that you have a valve that will take
EITHER a flare end (which requires a flaring tool), or a compression
fitting, but not both.

Incidentally, I hate plumbing.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Me too. No, I haven't got a flared end on the pipe. Except in automotive
applications i.e. brake and clutch hydraulics lines etc, pipework this side
of the pond does not employ end flaring. Trust me, the fitting is being
assembled correctly, and it is machined surfaces that should be being pulled
up together to form the seal. The one that is not working fully at this
time, is the one between the brass olive, and the seat in the valve body.
The idea is that the brass olive 'distorts' it's form to match the seat at
one end, whilst compressing onto the soft copper pipe at the other. However,
there is a fine line between that distortion being the amount that's
required to get a seal, and distorting the olive or fitting body, to the
point where it will never seal. With smaller 15 mm compression fittings,
this point is easily 'felt' and intuited, but it seems is rather more a case
of experience and big boys' spanners, with the larger 22 mm fittings, with
which I don't have a lot of experience. I have DIY plumbed for more than 40
years, but have only had to do work on 22 mm pipework, a handful of times.

Arfa

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:


Interesting. The consensus at the moment from those good folk over on
UK DIY, is that I still didn't pull it up tight enough. They reckon
that the frictional resistance of 22 mm fittings can be so high that
you can pull them up until they squeak, but in fact you are fighting
this friction in the threads, and although you think that you must
have gotten it tight enough to have seated the olive, you actually
haven't. They say that the solution is to put sealing compound on both
the olive, and the threads, and this will act as a lubricant when
pulling it up, resulting in the force going into making the joint,
rather than just tightening the nut. I have also had the thought of
using a 22 mm tap connector on it. That way you get the seal from a
rubber or fibre washer against the thread end, rather than having to
get a good 'squash' of the olive onto both the pipe, and the seat in
the valve body. What thinks you to this off the wall idea ?

Arfa

I suppose that this could happen ! I've had them leak on me. usually
another quarter or half turn stopped that. I was taught to use soap on
the pipe, olive and threads before assembly and tightening the gland
nut. But I admit that I have heard them squeak, particularly the big
ones.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Arfa Daily wrote:



Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the
bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it
becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I
really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails,
but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I
know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight'
connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression.
I built a device for testing pipes buried in the concrete basement floor
of our house, for the hydronic heating system. One unit is a piece of
rubber
stopper with a bolt through it and washers at each end. You clamp down
on the nut and it expands the rubber, sealing to the pipe ID. The other
unit is similar, but the bolt is hollow, and has small pipe threads. You
can attach pressure gauges, valves, air fittings, etc. as needed to
pressurize the pipe section.

Jon

Baron wrote:

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:



Arfa


Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... )
Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\

Arfa

Apart from a wry smile :-)
I would be interested in the cause and solution !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to
the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back
up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try
it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with
15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it
watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only
be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder
or compression.

Arfa

Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me...
Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing
water to leak through the casting from the inside.

Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot
water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I
thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In
fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into
the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that
it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted
joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem.

Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping
between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined
surface was.

The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to
replace the faulty tap.


I had a set of cast valves crack in my shower years ago. No
replacement was availible to fit the existing holes, so I used acid
flux, a mapp gas torch aand filled the crack with solder.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Nelson" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote
(in article ):

Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)

[snip]

Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground.

--
Nelson



Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then
? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ?


A minimum of 250 VAc, and non-polar. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.