Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-)
So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my earlier posts, here it is : http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866 It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes, and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends, after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it. What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And still it leaked ... Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ... With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to come off ... Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on. AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!! No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously purchased ... As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output. Arfa |
#2
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my earlier posts, here it is : http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866 It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes, and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends, after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it. What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And still it leaked ... Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ... With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to come off ... Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on. AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!! No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously purchased ... As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output. Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa |
#3
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my earlier posts, here it is : http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866 It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes, and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends, after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it. What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And still it leaked ... Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ... With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to come off ... Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on. AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!! No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously purchased ... As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output. Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa Apart from a wry smile :-) I would be interested in the cause and solution ! -- Best Regards: Baron. |
#4
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa Apart from a wry smile :-) I would be interested in the cause and solution ! -- Best Regards: Baron. Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression. Arfa |
#5
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
On Jan 28, 9:37*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... * :-) So, today, I finally got the time to go to our burger joint to fit the pressure reduction valve that I bought a couple of weeks back, to stop the 6 bar pressure relief valve ahead of the unvented water heater, from lifting off its seat all the time. For those who haven't seen the valve in my earlier posts, here it is : http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/safeguar...cing-343-21866 It has a 22 mm through bore, and comes complete with custom 22 to 15 mm reducing olives, as well as standard 22 mm olives, if you are going to fit it direct to 22 mm pipe. So far, so good. Off goes the water, on go the taps. All drained down, and three inches whipped out of the 15 mm pipe where it's going, in no time. I then fitted the compression nuts over the pipes, and then put the two sections of the reducing olives over the pipe ends, after carefully studying the supplied diagram to make sure that they were going in right. The diagram is quite clear, and the assembly order is exactly as you would expect. Basically, the 'inner' part of the olive comprises a 'straight' section about 5 mm long that fits into the body of the valve. Behind this, there is a 'flare' at about 45 deg that matches a correspondingly angled 'seat' in the valve body. Behind that is a 'conical' section of again about 45 deg, tapering down the opposite way to a 15 mm hole to accommodate the 15 mm pipe. This is the piece of the adaptor, that is going to grip down onto the 15 mm pipe. There is then a completely separate piece that is a brass ring about 5 mm deep, that has a corresponding conical seat inside its front face, and a square rear face to go against the inside face of the compression nut. Unfortunately, the online instruction sheet doesn't show this, so I've had to try and describe it. What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. Except it didn't. Both sides dripped like a good 'un. The low pressure side was actually worse than the high. And from here on in, the day just got worse. I had been careful not to pull the nuts up more than about a quarter turn beyond where the adaptor had obviously gripped the pipe, as I am fully aware that over-tightening a compression fitting can distort it and prevent it sealing. So I carefully pulled it up a bit tighter. Not a jot of difference. Water off again. Disassembled. Inner part of adaptor seemed to be tightly pinched onto the pipe. I carefully examined the flare and the seat in the valve, but both looked ok and undamaged. However, as that was about the only place that I could see that water could be getting past, I put a good wodge of PTFE tape around the flare, and bolted back up. And still it leaked ... Thinking that perhaps I was wrong then about where the water was getting out, I then nipped to B&Q and bought a couple of end-feed 22 to 15 mm reducers, that had nice long straight bits at the 22 mm end. As a safety net, I also bought a pair of 15 mm straight couplers. Glad I did ... With the valve back off, I fitted the supplied 22 mm traditional olives over the reducers, and inserted them into the valve body. Nice fit, and the olive is butting up to the seat in the valve nicely. Out with the cutter again, and a bit more pipe removed to accommodate the new length of the valve with it's reducer 'tails' fitted, and to allow the original reducing olives to be removed, as of course, these are now firmly clamped to the pipe, never to come off ... Valve back in place, compression nuts pinched up, olives appear to be clamped firmly to the 22 mm sides of the new reducers. Other ends of the reducers soldered to incoming and outgoing 15 mm pipes. Water back on. AND THE ******* LEAKED. BOTH EFFIN' SIDES !!!!! No amount of additional tightening, PTFE'ing, swearing at it or kicking of the cat that wandered past the back door, would improve it. So, with time marching on towards opening, I gave up, and fitted a piece of 15 mm pipe back into the gap, using those two couplers that I had fortuitously purchased ... As both (very different) ways that I've tried to mount this thing have failed to work in the same way, and the fact that the low pressure side is actually worse than the high, the only conclusion that I can come to, is that the example that I have has been machined badly at the olive seats, or else the product overall, is a piece of ****. During over 40 years of DIY plumbing, I think I've seen most general problems of this type, and I don't ever remember one defeating me before. I'm not an expert by any means, but compression joints and adaptors, are hardly rocket science. I'm not sure what to do now. I was thinking that I might be able to get an O ring in between the olive and the seat, but I'm not sure that would be successful.. Anyone got any suggestions, or can think of anything that I'm doing wrong, or missing. Incidentally, when it was in place, with the pressure gauge fitted, it did at least seem to be working, with a steady 3 bar output. Arfa FWIW, I usually buy a threaded body PRV which geneally has a union nut on one end to allow the PRV to be easily removed from the line for serviceing. I can then use solder to thread adaptors to connect to the piping if metal or PEX compression to thread adaptors for plastic piping.. Take your PRV and put a valve on the output side pipe and a hose bib fitting on the input pipe and connect it to a hose bib [or whatever you call the tap you connect a garden hose to over there] and that allows you to test it for leakage. I agree, though, that I have seen far too many flare and compression fittings that were so badly machined that they would never seal up. I also had a gas valve in my house when I bought it [10 yeas old] that the body was porous and the gas leaked right through. It was a very cheezy valve made in Ch**a. To be on the safe side I replaced all the fitings from the feed line to the controller valve to be sure of fixing the leak, using best quality parts, naturally. Neil S. |
#6
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? d;~} Arfa |
#7
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"nesesu" wrote in message ... FWIW, I usually buy a threaded body PRV which geneally has a union nut on one end to allow the PRV to be easily removed from the line for serviceing. I can then use solder to thread adaptors to connect to the piping if metal or PEX compression to thread adaptors for plastic piping.. Take your PRV and put a valve on the output side pipe and a hose bib fitting on the input pipe and connect it to a hose bib [or whatever you call the tap you connect a garden hose to over there] and that allows you to test it for leakage. I agree, though, that I have seen far too many flare and compression fittings that were so badly machined that they would never seal up. I also had a gas valve in my house when I bought it [10 yeas old] that the body was porous and the gas leaked right through. It was a very cheezy valve made in Ch**a. To be on the safe side I replaced all the fitings from the feed line to the controller valve to be sure of fixing the leak, using best quality parts, naturally. Neil S. Hi Neil. Pretty much what I'm intending to do in terms of pressure testing. There are all sorts of solutions I could employ. There are, for instance, 22 mm to 15 mm flexi tails available, that will screw straight onto a threaded body such as this (like a tap (American faucet ??) connector. They make their seal by use of a fibre or rubber washer that butts against the flat edge of the threaded section. This means that the problem of compressing an olive into the seat to the point where it seals, is eliminated. Of course, it does rely on that flat face being reasonably machined, but that does appear to be the case on this PRV, from what I can see. Arfa |
#8
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily wrote:
Hi Neil. Pretty much what I'm intending to do in terms of pressure testing. There are all sorts of solutions I could employ. There are, for instance, 22 mm to 15 mm flexi tails available, that will screw straight onto a threaded body such as this (like a tap (American faucet ??) connector. They make their seal by use of a fibre or rubber washer that butts against the flat edge of the threaded section. This means that the problem of compressing an olive into the seat to the point where it seals, is eliminated. Of course, it does rely on that flat face being reasonably machined, but that does appear to be the case on this PRV, from what I can see. Arfa, there are compounds that you can buy which are gaskets in a tube. It has been over 20 years that I used them so I don't remember their name. The one I used was a black goop that one squeeze (squoze?) out of a tube to seal cracked or damaged automotive connectors. I used it on plumbing connectors where one edge was no longer smooth and they worked fine. There are two kinds, one which hardens out of the tube and one which does not. Make sure the correct one. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:
Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa Apart from a wry smile :-) I would be interested in the cause and solution ! -- Best Regards: Baron. Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression. Arfa Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me... Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing water to leak through the casting from the inside. Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem. Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined surface was. The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to replace the faulty tap. -- Best Regards: Baron. |
#10
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote:
"Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? d;~} Arfa Could be one o them paralytic oscillations Ron |
#11
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"Baron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily Inscribed thus: Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa Apart from a wry smile :-) I would be interested in the cause and solution ! -- Best Regards: Baron. Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression. Arfa Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me... Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing water to leak through the casting from the inside. Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem. Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined surface was. The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to replace the faulty tap. -- Best Regards: Baron. Interesting. The consensus at the moment from those good folk over on UK DIY, is that I still didn't pull it up tight enough. They reckon that the frictional resistance of 22 mm fittings can be so high that you can pull them up until they squeak, but in fact you are fighting this friction in the threads, and although you think that you must have gotten it tight enough to have seated the olive, you actually haven't. They say that the solution is to put sealing compound on both the olive, and the threads, and this will act as a lubricant when pulling it up, resulting in the force going into making the joint, rather than just tightening the nut. I have also had the thought of using a 22 mm tap connector on it. That way you get the seal from a rubber or fibre washer against the thread end, rather than having to get a good 'squash' of the olive onto both the pipe, and the seat in the valve body. What thinks you to this off the wall idea ? Arfa |
#12
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Ron wrote in message
... On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote: "Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? d;~} Arfa Could be one o them paralytic oscillations Ron As used in symphonic cisterns |
#13
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:37:55 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote: What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. I beg to differ. If I'm decoding your posting correctly, you have both a flared end on a copper pipe, as well as a compression fitting (ferrule or olive), on the same copper pipe. That's not going to work. The flare and the ferrule are pulling against each other as you tighten the nut. My guess(tm) is that you have a valve that will take EITHER a flare end (which requires a flaring tool), or a compression fitting, but not both. Incidentally, I hate plumbing. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#14
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"Ron" wrote in message ... On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote: "Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? d;~} Arfa Could be one o them paralytic oscillations Ron I used to get those a lot when I was younger, and drank a lot on Friday nights. I oscillated continuously between being upright and flat on my back .... :-) Arfa |
#15
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... Ron wrote in message ... On 29/01/2012 11:23, Arfa Daily wrote: "Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? d;~} Arfa Could be one o them paralytic oscillations Ron As used in symphonic cisterns I've got one of those as well. Sings a really pretty tune as it fills ... Arfa |
#16
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message ... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:37:55 -0000, "Arfa Daily" wrote: What should happen, is that as you pull up the compression nut, the conical seat of the outer ring, presses on the conical taper of the inner part of the adaptor, crushing it onto the 15 mm pipe. At the same time, the 45 deg flare a little further in, should be pulling up against the corresponding seat in the valve body, to form a seal. I beg to differ. If I'm decoding your posting correctly, you have both a flared end on a copper pipe, as well as a compression fitting (ferrule or olive), on the same copper pipe. That's not going to work. The flare and the ferrule are pulling against each other as you tighten the nut. My guess(tm) is that you have a valve that will take EITHER a flare end (which requires a flaring tool), or a compression fitting, but not both. Incidentally, I hate plumbing. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Me too. No, I haven't got a flared end on the pipe. Except in automotive applications i.e. brake and clutch hydraulics lines etc, pipework this side of the pond does not employ end flaring. Trust me, the fitting is being assembled correctly, and it is machined surfaces that should be being pulled up together to form the seal. The one that is not working fully at this time, is the one between the brass olive, and the seat in the valve body. The idea is that the brass olive 'distorts' it's form to match the seat at one end, whilst compressing onto the soft copper pipe at the other. However, there is a fine line between that distortion being the amount that's required to get a seal, and distorting the olive or fitting body, to the point where it will never seal. With smaller 15 mm compression fittings, this point is easily 'felt' and intuited, but it seems is rather more a case of experience and big boys' spanners, with the larger 22 mm fittings, with which I don't have a lot of experience. I have DIY plumbed for more than 40 years, but have only had to do work on 22 mm pipework, a handful of times. Arfa |
#17
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:
Interesting. The consensus at the moment from those good folk over on UK DIY, is that I still didn't pull it up tight enough. They reckon that the frictional resistance of 22 mm fittings can be so high that you can pull them up until they squeak, but in fact you are fighting this friction in the threads, and although you think that you must have gotten it tight enough to have seated the olive, you actually haven't. They say that the solution is to put sealing compound on both the olive, and the threads, and this will act as a lubricant when pulling it up, resulting in the force going into making the joint, rather than just tightening the nut. I have also had the thought of using a 22 mm tap connector on it. That way you get the seal from a rubber or fibre washer against the thread end, rather than having to get a good 'squash' of the olive onto both the pipe, and the seat in the valve body. What thinks you to this off the wall idea ? Arfa I suppose that this could happen ! I've had them leak on me. usually another quarter or half turn stopped that. I was taught to use soap on the pipe, olive and threads before assembly and tightening the gland nut. But I admit that I have heard them squeak, particularly the big ones. -- Best Regards: Baron. |
#18
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily wrote:
Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression. I built a device for testing pipes buried in the concrete basement floor of our house, for the hydronic heating system. One unit is a piece of rubber stopper with a bolt through it and washers at each end. You clamp down on the nut and it expands the rubber, sealing to the pipe ID. The other unit is similar, but the bolt is hollow, and has small pipe threads. You can attach pressure gauges, valves, air fittings, etc. as needed to pressurize the pipe section. Jon |
#19
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Baron wrote: Arfa Daily Inscribed thus: Arfa Oooops ! Ignore this (except for amusement at my misfortune ... ) Accidentally posted to wrong group :-\ Arfa Apart from a wry smile :-) I would be interested in the cause and solution ! -- Best Regards: Baron. Then you shall have it sir ! Assuming of course, that I ever get to the bottom of it. Problem is that now I've had to patch the pipe back up, it becomes more and more difficult to put it back in, just to try it out. I really need to figure a way to pressurise it assembled with 15 mm tails, but out of the installation. If I can then get it watertight, at least I know that when I put it back in, it will only be a case of a 'straight' connection 15 mm to 15 mm, be it in solder or compression. Arfa Long shot, but since I've had it happen to me... Its possible that the casting has one or more blow holes in it allowing water to leak through the casting from the inside. Some time long ago I replaced a sink mixer tap... It was fine until hot water was run through it, then it started to leak. I at first I thought that it was the compression joints at the base of the tap. In fact it was water being forced under the chrome plating and out into the cabinet underneath. The supplier refused to even acknowledge that it was the tap that was leaking and blamed the leak on badly fitted joints. Replacing the tap cured the problem. Using a high pressure test pump showed that water was in fact escaping between the chrome plating and the bottom of the tap where the machined surface was. The supplier never acknowledged the fault and refused point blank to replace the faulty tap. I had a set of cast valves crack in my shower years ago. No replacement was availible to fit the existing holes, so I used acid flux, a mapp gas torch aand filled the crack with solder. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#20
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
|
|||
|
|||
It's been a bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-(
Arfa Daily wrote: "Nelson" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0500, Arfa Daily wrote (in article ): Bit of a long post, but stick with it ... :-) [snip] Try inserting a 22uF capacitor between the valve and ground. -- Nelson Ah. Interesting thought, Nelson. Do you think it's maybe going unstable then ? What sort of voltage rating are you thinking ... ? A minimum of 250 VAc, and non-polar. ;-) -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
A bad (plumbing) day at the office ... :-( | UK diy | |||
Question on plumbing average cost- location New England...For newtoilet and change pedestal plumbing | Home Repair | |||
open office vs MS Office | Electronic Schematics | |||
How Dare Could America Industrial Property Office Be In Conspiracy With Jungang International Patent Office To Make An Extravagant International Crime ? | Woodturning |