I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

On 11/13/2011 9:00 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

It may have two windings on one coil. I deal with solenoids like that
all the time. The first strong winding pulls it in then opens a "end of
stroke" switch so it doesn't burn up. Then the second weaker winding is
just strong enough to hold it and can stay energized without burning up.
If the second weak winding is broke, you get a chattering action.

Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Or it's actually a DC coil and there is suppose to be a diode in
series some where ?

If there isn't any large amount of debris from what you think is
a dragging brake pad, I would leave it alone. It could be a design
feature to simply release the pad to allow them to slip freely and not
create a gap between the disc. This would allow for the quickest
engagement of the pads when the hoist is deactivated and thus less
mechanical slip jerk.

I suppose it could be a AC coil with at shaded ring tip in the
core, if that is the case, there should be some sign of over heated
coil wire that would indicate a few shorted turns, if you can see them.

Also, do do make coils with embedded diodes.

Jamie

Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Jamie wrote:

Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Or it's actually a DC coil and there is suppose to be a diode in
series some where ?


Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB

--
Email is valid but not checked often

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.

On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.

Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.

Jeff


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

GeorgeD wrote:

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13,
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.


I didn't look at the picture before how ever, that solenoid needs replacing!

Between the corrosion, most likely in the wire too, the laminates
are most likely bad!

THat part of the equipment should be well closed to keep it much
cleaner than that!

P.S.

I know of an area of our work place where a whole bunch of new
solenoids are stored just for that hoist! We no longer have hoist
of that type in operation. The solenoids are kept on hand for R&D
material until they run out, they also make good look bolt retractors.


Jamie

On Nov 13, 8:00*am, Ignoramus22978 ignoramus22...@NOSPAM.
22978.invalid wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Have you thought of contacting the manufactirer?

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:

That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.


Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.


Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.


Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.

Jeff



You don't need to listen to me at all, if facts bother you then just
please put me on your ignore list, I wouldn't want to be responsible for
causing you any pain and agony.

It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.


Jamie

On 11/13/2011 10:18 AM, Jamie wrote:
It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.

How ironic.

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 11/13/2011 10:18 AM, Jamie wrote:

It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.


How ironic.

Jeff

Yeah, isn't it?

Hope you enjoy your dilemma..

Have a nice day.

Jamie

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:21:30 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

Here's a picture.
http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

Clean off the corrosion before blundering forward. It's likely that
the jerkiness is cuased by corrosion or rust on the moving parts of
the solenoid. I suggest you tear it apart, clean off what can be
easily removed, use a wire brush on everything else, coat is with some
kind of sealer (clear acrylic), and make sure everything moves easily
and correctly before reassembling. If that's too much, it looks like
the solenoid can be removed with 4 screws and a cotter pin, so start
cleaning there.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
:

Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes
more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC

Michael, it's even less than that: Full-wave single-phase rectified AC
has an area under the curve of .707*Vpeak. Half-wave has half THAT area.
If you filter half-wave, and draw no current from the cap, it charges to
peak V-in.

Filtered - either half-wave or full-wave - the DC voltage never rises
above peak, regardless of draw, unless you use a doubler circuit. A
full-wave rectifier (with or without filtering) is not a doubler.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
:

Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes
more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC

Michael, it's even less than that: Full-wave single-phase rectified AC
has an area under the curve of .707*Vpeak. Half-wave has half THAT area.
If you filter half-wave, and draw no current from the cap, it charges to
peak V-in.

Filtered - either half-wave or full-wave - the DC voltage never rises
above peak, regardless of draw, unless you use a doubler circuit. A
full-wave rectifier (with or without filtering) is not a doubler.


How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.
You don't need a full wave bridge, or millions of old line operated
radios would have never worked. They were a simple rectifier & a 160
VDC electrolytic, usually around 30 µF.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 2011-11-13, BQ340 wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB


OK, I kind of suspected that also (based on my past diesel generator
experiences).

i

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.

Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.


What else do you expect from 'Skippy - V2.0'? He also thinks
Electret microphones are crystal microphones, and that you can easily
change the bandgap in LEDs to adjust the color. He's a real, no class
clown on sci.electronics.design.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 2011-11-13, GeorgeD wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.



I put some penetrating oil on the screws, I will get it off and clean
thoroughly. Thanks.

i

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

i

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
:

How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.


You are missing a basic point. 230VAC line voltage is measured RMS (root-
mean-square) it's peak is 230*sqrt(2). I said, "the voltage will never
rise above peak".

G
Lloyd

Ignoramus22978 fired this volley in
:

Two.

Ig, there is a case where a diode might be used, but you'd see it, and a
switch to cut it in and out of circuit, if it were there.

The case is where a coil is wound "strong" for pull-in, then a diode is
placed in series to lower the coil's average current during the hold phase.

However, that would be obvious, and external to the coil.

LLoyd

On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
:


How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.



You are missing a basic point. 230VAC line voltage is measured RMS (root-
mean-square) it's peak is 230*sqrt(2). I said, "the voltage will never
rise above peak".

G
Lloyd

It's nice that you are attempting to help others, very admiral of you
how ever, this person you are replying to has been on my ignore list for
some time now and for good reason. You may also learn why if you haven't
already.

I also write software at times and posted a question about options
that may exist in the "NNTP" protocol, which is used here, to exclude
down loading from the server if I happen to have a exclusion of a user
in the
header of the post. It gets messy trying to ignore these characters even
though you have your own reader configured to do so, how ever, reading
others post ends up showing you users that you don't want any thing to
do with.

I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.

I guess it's just a weakness in the protocol.

Jamie

Jamie t fired this
volley in :

I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.

Jamie, he was correct, except for forgetting that AC line voltage is the
root mean square of it's peak. A lot of people forget that.

I'm an old radio guy from the 60's, too. That was long before the advent
of switching power supplies. To get 5VDC at 1A off the mains used to
take a 1lb transformer, and about 40 cu.in. of rectifiers and filters --
and regulation sucked unless you really over-sized the transformer.

Now you can get that out of a 1/2-oz wall wart!

LLoyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Jamie t fired this
volley in :


I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.


Jamie, he was correct, except for forgetting that AC line voltage is the
root mean square of it's peak. A lot of people forget that.

I'm an old radio guy from the 60's, too. That was long before the advent
of switching power supplies. To get 5VDC at 1A off the mains used to
take a 1lb transformer, and about 40 cu.in. of rectifiers and filters --
and regulation sucked unless you really over-sized the transformer.

Now you can get that out of a 1/2-oz wall wart!

LLoyd
The point is that he goes out of his way making an idiot of himself, he
can't even get my identity correct. I am not the only user with this name.

I deal with this crap at work all the time when the electricians walk
over to me with unexplained problems, some of which are hoist how ever,
we deal with much larger cranes than what is being talked about here.

We just recently had a 10 ton crane inspected after a repair done on
the motor brake which is much different than what is being talked about
here. That one uses a DC coil with a bridge rectifier and this bridge is
actually encased in the coil pack. This coil can operate from AC or DC
how ever, the way this one is being operated is it first gets energized
via 48V AC, then a time delay relay opens its contacts to operate a
single diode inline which allows for 50% duty to the coil for holding..
It is a Peak and hold motor brake and works very well. We had to
replace it not to long ago because the contacts in the control box got
welded and what happens is with a lot of constant use the coil heats up
the spline and starts to stick and thus does not always close
afterwards. You can picture what happens to the load when the operator
releases the buttons.

Personally I stay clear of MT. He is a force to be reckon with. Also I
never made any comment on his evaluation of the math or what ever he
spit out, I just don't bother reading his crap because it normally has
nothing to do with helping any one. I only see him from other users
posting replies.


Jamie

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Jamie wrote:

The point is that he goes out of his way making an idiot of himself, he
can't even get my identity correct. I am not the only user with this name.


Maynard A Philbrook JR is the only one with the callsign KA1LPA.

http://call-signs.findthebest.com/l/63823/KA1LPA


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

This is exactly what it does.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

No, it chatters like a machine gun.

i

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:28:30 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/13/2011 9:00 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

It may have two windings on one coil. I deal with solenoids like that
all the time. The first strong winding pulls it in then opens a "end of
stroke" switch so it doesn't burn up. Then the second weaker winding is
just strong enough to hold it and can stay energized without burning up.
If the second weak winding is broke, you get a chattering action.

That would be a "Pick and Hold" solenoid. The "Pick" is the strong
winding with the switch, and the Hold would be the weak constant
winding.

And the Pick might not be able to pick without the Hold being
energized too, so it buzzes and doesn't open all the way. Or it's
bouncing on the end switch - hard to tell without looking.

Check the connections - If it's two separate windings, there might be
a loose lead.

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:47:07 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-13, BQ340 wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB


OK, I kind of suspected that also (based on my past diesel generator
experiences).

Yup, it's just a standard box solenoid, probably Dormeyer they make
zillions of them - and all crapped up inside that end-bell. If it was
something fancy it would look it.

Take it apart and clean up all the sliding and metal surfaces, a
little dab of Lubriplate white grease on the moving pole pieces inside
the solenoid, and hit it with some clear-coat to stop the surface rust
on the metal parts - and stop leaving it outside in the rain.

You do NOT want to pull an "Honest Al Babin" and start painting all
over the insides. You want to see if something is starting to crack.

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 2011-11-14, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

I bought it at auction.

I have never seen this hoist run.

At my place, I have 240v 3ph only. (well, I have a transformer that I
could wire to get 460v, but it is sitting in the corner right now).

i

On 2011-11-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Well, what I know is that I did measure voltage at the solenoid
terminals, and it was 230v.

i

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:40:30 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Well, what I know is that I did measure voltage at the solenoid
terminals, and it was 230v.

i

Recheck all your wiring. And then see if the solenoids have any markings
on them that may indicate they were replaced with 480 only ones.

That chattering would indicate they are not getting enough poop to hold.

Got a 480 transformer? Rewire back to 480 and see if it works properly
at that voltage.

If there is 230 on those terminals..it means something is not properly
if the solenoids are the stock ones. So they may not be the stock ones.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:39:50 -0600, Ignoramus22978
wrote:

On 2011-11-14, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

I bought it at auction.

I have never seen this hoist run.

At my place, I have 240v 3ph only. (well, I have a transformer that I
could wire to get 460v, but it is sitting in the corner right now).

i
Time to hook it up and set it up as a 480 power supply WITH DIFFERNT
PLUGS than your 240 system. You will run a lot of 480 stuff through
your shop..and you will need a power source to run/demo/test that
stuff.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 11/13/2011 9:51 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony wrote:
On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

This is exactly what it does.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

No, it chatters like a machine gun.

i

Follow the solenoid wires to look for an end of stroke switch. If it
has one it will be actuated and open when the solenoid is pulled in.
Check that circuit for a resistor or something else to lower the
solenoid voltage. The problem is that it gets power on the pull stroke
but no power for the hold position.