Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A" channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels' speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp, the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B", and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground' side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole (dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa

  #2   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


Arfa Daily wrote:

Had an Allen ? Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A" channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels' speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp, the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B", and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground' side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole (dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would be
good to understand the designer's thinking.



If both amps are fed the same signal, it reduces the maximum current
requirements for both the + and - rails. That also lowers the current
in the system ground, reducing crosstalk & possible ground loops. This
is done in some RF circuits, as well.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Arfa Daily wrote:
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A" channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels' speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp, the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B", and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground' side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole (dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


are these amps run from one power supply?
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,247
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running

very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from

the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered

directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I

noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A"

channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the

speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly

where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve

on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels'

speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels

of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,

the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three little

3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B", and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it

that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying

that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps

or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground' side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole

(dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is

mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


Antiphase amps discussed here a year or so ago re Yamaha Stagepas and/or
another amp not A&H, I forget the make. I think ther concensus view was to
balance up power draw on ps + and - rails for deep near impulse audio output


  #5   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Arfa Daily"

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.



** The idea is sometimes known as the "OOPS" system - for Out Of Phase
Stereo.

It balances the load on the common PSU at any point in time, reducing
voltage drop and electro cap ripple voltage.

Bob Carver used the idea in his famous M400a " Carver Cube" amp, et alia.

http://www.oaktreevintage.com/web_ph...eo_Amp_web.jpg

http://www.doebbe.com/hifi/pics/Carver_M400_ret_3s.jpg


Fancy A&H picking up on it .....




.... Phil




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,247
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Yamaha EMX5016 mixer amp and Stagepas range and Lab Gruppen amps use
antiphase/ out of phase arangement


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an
open circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In
order to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending
("B") power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon
from the mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole
speakon connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered
directly to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the
socket, I noticed that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way
round to the "A" channel one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay
exactly where they originally were, and looked absolutely
factory-original, even down to the one which went to the uppermost
connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on it, exactly the same as on the
"A" channel. Except the two channels were definitely wired arse-about-face
to one another. On both channels' speakons, the "1-" and "2-" pins were
linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel "A" the ground wire was
connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel, the ground was on the
"-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3 pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and
the other pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort
of 'to the power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set
to "B", and on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers
reverse the phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two
amps then process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the
final output, where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by
wiring the speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being
able to make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user
manual, and there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end,
specifically saying that under no circumstances should any attempt be made
to operate the amps in bridge. It also warns against making any
connections between the two amps or any speakers connected to them,
although in actual fact, the 'ground' side of each output is truly ground,
and is common to both amps, the whole (dual) power supply, and all
metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


Carver has also done this on some models. Not so good when someone tries to
demonstrate through a common grounded speaker switcher...

Mark Z.

  #8   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,247
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Mark Zacharias wrote in message
.com...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has

two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to

an
open circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps.

In
order to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending
("B") power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and

ribbon
from the mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole
speakon connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were

soldered
directly to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the
socket, I noticed that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way
round to the "A" channel one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay
exactly where they originally were, and looked absolutely
factory-original, even down to the one which went to the uppermost
connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on it, exactly the same as on the
"A" channel. Except the two channels were definitely wired

arse-about-face
to one another. On both channels' speakons, the "1-" and "2-" pins were
linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel "A" the ground wire was
connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel, the ground was on the
"-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the

same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the

speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3 pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B",

and
the other pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a

sort
of 'to the power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were

set
to "B", and on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers
reverse the phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two
amps then process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the
final output, where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored,

by
wiring the speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being
able to make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user
manual, and there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end,
specifically saying that under no circumstances should any attempt be

made
to operate the amps in bridge. It also warns against making any
connections between the two amps or any speakers connected to them,
although in actual fact, the 'ground' side of each output is truly

ground,
and is common to both amps, the whole (dual) power supply, and all
metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


Carver has also done this on some models. Not so good when someone tries

to
demonstrate through a common grounded speaker switcher...

Mark Z.



Someone last week asked my advice on bridging high power amps. My advise was
don't - bridge inputs if you must, thinking that any fault tends to lead to
spectacular failure all round, I'd forgotton about this ,antiphase, reason
for not bridging


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Hi Arfa,

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:

Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has
two completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was
running very hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly
traced to an open circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between
the two amps. In order to replace the resistor, it was necessary to
remove the offending ("B") power amp to get to the board underside.
The power rails and ribbon from the mixer desk section were on
removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon connector was bolted to
the rear panel and the wires were soldered directly to the board. When
I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I noticed that the "B"
channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A" channel one. I
noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay
exactly where they originally were, and looked absolutely
factory-original, even down to the one which went to the uppermost
connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on it, exactly the same as on
the "A" channel. Except the two channels were definitely wired
arse-about-face to one another. On both channels' speakons, the "1-"
and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel "A"
the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two
channels of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both
with the same polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals
were completely anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed
connections to the speakon sockets, they would be back in phase again
to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each
amp, the signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted
three little 3 pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated
"B", and the other pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the
"A" in a sort of 'to the power of' position. On the B amp, these three
jumpers were set to "B", and on the A amp they were set to "A", so
clearly, these jumpers reverse the phase of the signal coming in from
the desk section. The two amps then process the signals in antiphase
to one another right to the final output, where the 'correct' phase
relationship is again restored, by wiring the speakon connector
'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with
being able to make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the
user manual, and there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end,
specifically saying that under no circumstances should any attempt be
made to operate the amps in bridge. It also warns against making any
connections between the two amps or any speakers connected to them,
although in actual fact, the 'ground' side of each output is truly
ground, and is common to both amps, the whole (dual) power supply, and
all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest,
it would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


I'll bet that your first suspicion is right and the amps have or are
being used in bridge configuration in some other gear.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 379
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

In article , Baron wrote:

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest,
it would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


I'll bet that your first suspicion is right and the amps have or are
being used in bridge configuration in some other gear.


There's another possibility, which I saw mentioned a few years ago.

By configuring the amp so that the two channels are operating in
opposition to one another, you may increase the amp's ability to
handle short periods of very high output (brief peaks) slightly.

The reasoning is this: most of the time, high-amplitude signals are
going to be in phase between the two channels. If the two channels
are operating with the same polarity, they're both going to be drawing
on the same power-supply rail during these peaks (i.e. both will be +
or both will - at any given moment). This sudden load will tend to
draw down the power-supply bypass cap for that rail, and/or will
result in a large amount of current flowing through one side of the
power supply rectifier chain. The other rail's supply capacitor won't
have any load on it at that moment, and its rectifier won't be
carrying much if any current.

On the other hand, if you invert the audio signal coming into one
channel, and then wire up the output of that channel to the speakers
"backwards", you end up with a situation in which the two channels are
usually drawing power from _opposite_ power-supply rails. This will
decrease the worst-case sag in the rail voltages, and also tend to
reduce and even out the current flow in the rectifiers (and reduce
voltage drop and heating slightly).

As a result, an amp which was designed with a "not-so-stiff" power
supply system, may be able to deliver a slightly higher amount of peak
power before it begins to clip and distort.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Dave Platt Inscribed thus:

In article , Baron
wrote:

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic
interest, it would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


I'll bet that your first suspicion is right and the amps have or are
being used in bridge configuration in some other gear.


There's another possibility, which I saw mentioned a few years ago.

By configuring the amp so that the two channels are operating in
opposition to one another, you may increase the amp's ability to
handle short periods of very high output (brief peaks) slightly.

The reasoning is this: most of the time, high-amplitude signals are
going to be in phase between the two channels. If the two channels
are operating with the same polarity, they're both going to be drawing
on the same power-supply rail during these peaks (i.e. both will be +
or both will - at any given moment). This sudden load will tend to
draw down the power-supply bypass cap for that rail, and/or will
result in a large amount of current flowing through one side of the
power supply rectifier chain. The other rail's supply capacitor won't
have any load on it at that moment, and its rectifier won't be
carrying much if any current.

On the other hand, if you invert the audio signal coming into one
channel, and then wire up the output of that channel to the speakers
"backwards", you end up with a situation in which the two channels are
usually drawing power from _opposite_ power-supply rails. This will
decrease the worst-case sag in the rail voltages, and also tend to
reduce and even out the current flow in the rectifiers (and reduce
voltage drop and heating slightly).

As a result, an amp which was designed with a "not-so-stiff" power
supply system, may be able to deliver a slightly higher amount of peak
power before it begins to clip and distort.


Interesting analysis ! Though I thought Arfa said "Dual" power
supplies. Unless he meant dual rails from a common transformer.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Arfa Daily"


I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase,



** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and if
there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering off the
incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode - so AF used
both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and link
it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on if you have
to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase has reversed or has
a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of distorted,
noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.


.... Phil


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Arfa Daily wrote:

Had an Allen ? Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an
open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In
order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from
the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered
directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I
noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A"
channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly
where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down
to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve
on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels'
speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B"
channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the
other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to
the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B",
and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final
output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able
to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying
that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps
or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground'
side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole
(dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would
be
good to understand the designer's thinking.



If both amps are fed the same signal, it reduces the maximum current
requirements for both the + and - rails. That also lowers the current
in the system ground, reducing crosstalk & possible ground loops. This
is done in some RF circuits, as well.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.


Thanks Michael. Good thoughts.

Arfa

  #14   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an
open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In
order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from
the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered
directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I
noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A"
channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly
where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down
to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve
on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels'
speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B"
channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the
other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to
the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B",
and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final
output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able
to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying
that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps
or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground'
side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole
(dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would
be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


are these amps run from one power supply?


Sort of. It's one bloody great torroidal tranny, for sure, but it looked as
though there was enough filter caps on the board for it to be otherwise two
independant supplies. Certainly, two sets of + / - / gnd cables came out of
the psu for the two amps, but I must admit that I did not look at its design
closely enough to see if there was two sets of secondary windings, and two
rectifiers. The ground was certainly common to both amps, and one leg of the
output on each amp was that same ground.

Arfa

  #15   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.



** The idea is sometimes known as the "OOPS" system - for Out Of Phase
Stereo.

It balances the load on the common PSU at any point in time, reducing
voltage drop and electro cap ripple voltage.

Bob Carver used the idea in his famous M400a " Carver Cube" amp, et alia.

http://www.oaktreevintage.com/web_ph...eo_Amp_web.jpg

http://www.doebbe.com/hifi/pics/Carver_M400_ret_3s.jpg


Fancy A&H picking up on it .....




... Phil



Thanks Phil. That seems to be the concensus that's beginning to form here.

Arfa



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Mark Zacharias" wrote in message
.com...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to
an open circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps.
In order to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the
offending ("B") power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails
and ribbon from the mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but
the 4 pole speakon connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires
were soldered directly to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires
from the socket, I noticed that the "B" channel one was wired the
opposite way round to the "A" channel one. I noted this down to check on
later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay
exactly where they originally were, and looked absolutely
factory-original, even down to the one which went to the uppermost
connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on it, exactly the same as on the
"A" channel. Except the two channels were definitely wired
arse-about-face to one another. On both channels' speakons, the "1-" and
"2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel "A" the
ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel, the
ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the
same polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were
completely anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to
the speakon sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside
world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3 pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and
the other pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort
of 'to the power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set
to "B", and on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers
reverse the phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two
amps then process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the
final output, where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored,
by wiring the speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being
able to make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user
manual, and there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end,
specifically saying that under no circumstances should any attempt be
made to operate the amps in bridge. It also warns against making any
connections between the two amps or any speakers connected to them,
although in actual fact, the 'ground' side of each output is truly
ground, and is common to both amps, the whole (dual) power supply, and
all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


Carver has also done this on some models. Not so good when someone tries
to demonstrate through a common grounded speaker switcher...

Mark Z.


No, I guess it wouldn't be ... :-\

Arfa

  #17   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article , Baron
wrote:

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest,
it would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


I'll bet that your first suspicion is right and the amps have or are
being used in bridge configuration in some other gear.


There's another possibility, which I saw mentioned a few years ago.

By configuring the amp so that the two channels are operating in
opposition to one another, you may increase the amp's ability to
handle short periods of very high output (brief peaks) slightly.

The reasoning is this: most of the time, high-amplitude signals are
going to be in phase between the two channels. If the two channels
are operating with the same polarity, they're both going to be drawing
on the same power-supply rail during these peaks (i.e. both will be +
or both will - at any given moment). This sudden load will tend to
draw down the power-supply bypass cap for that rail, and/or will
result in a large amount of current flowing through one side of the
power supply rectifier chain. The other rail's supply capacitor won't
have any load on it at that moment, and its rectifier won't be
carrying much if any current.

On the other hand, if you invert the audio signal coming into one
channel, and then wire up the output of that channel to the speakers
"backwards", you end up with a situation in which the two channels are
usually drawing power from _opposite_ power-supply rails. This will
decrease the worst-case sag in the rail voltages, and also tend to
reduce and even out the current flow in the rectifiers (and reduce
voltage drop and heating slightly).

As a result, an amp which was designed with a "not-so-stiff" power
supply system, may be able to deliver a slightly higher amount of peak
power before it begins to clip and distort.

--
Dave Platt


Thanks Dave. This seems to be what everyone is thinking, and makes a lot of
sense when you stand back and think about it

Arfa

  #18   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"


I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the
same polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were
completely anti-phase,



** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and if
there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering off the
incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode - so AF used
both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and
link it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on if
you have to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase has
reversed or has a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of distorted,
noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.


... Phil



Interesting. Are you squaring up the generator's sine output, to give a good
sharp transition for syncing the scope ? I was looking at the phase
reversals on this particular unit, by using 2 of the channels on the scope,
and using internal auto trigger derived from CH 1. The sync circuitry on
this Hitachi scope is very good, and will produce a perfectly stable trigger
point from virtually any waveform, no matter how complex or scruffy, but I
can see where it would be useful to be able to have a fixed known trigger
point, and from there, be able to look at relative phasing between amps, and
phase shift within an amp, using a single scope channel.

Arfa

  #19   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Mark Zacharias wrote in message
.com...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has

two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to

an
open circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps.

In
order to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending
("B") power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and

ribbon
from the mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4
pole
speakon connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were

soldered
directly to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the
socket, I noticed that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way
round to the "A" channel one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay
exactly where they originally were, and looked absolutely
factory-original, even down to the one which went to the uppermost
connector tag, having a rubber sleeve on it, exactly the same as on the
"A" channel. Except the two channels were definitely wired

arse-about-face
to one another. On both channels' speakons, the "1-" and "2-" pins were
linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel "A" the ground wire was
connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B" channel, the ground was on
the
"-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two
channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the

same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were
completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the

speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3 pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B",

and
the other pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a

sort
of 'to the power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were

set
to "B", and on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these
jumpers
reverse the phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The
two
amps then process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the
final output, where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored,

by
wiring the speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being
able to make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user
manual, and there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end,
specifically saying that under no circumstances should any attempt be

made
to operate the amps in bridge. It also warns against making any
connections between the two amps or any speakers connected to them,
although in actual fact, the 'ground' side of each output is truly

ground,
and is common to both amps, the whole (dual) power supply, and all
metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended and back in its original condition, but for academic interest,
it
would be good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


Carver has also done this on some models. Not so good when someone tries

to
demonstrate through a common grounded speaker switcher...

Mark Z.



Someone last week asked my advice on bridging high power amps. My advise
was
don't - bridge inputs if you must, thinking that any fault tends to lead
to
spectacular failure all round, I'd forgotton about this ,antiphase,
reason
for not bridging



Such amps are naturally adaptable for bridging.

Mark Z.

  #20   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Arfa Daily"
"Phil Allison"
"Arfa Daily"


I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the
same polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were
completely anti-phase,



** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and if
there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering off the
incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode - so AF used
both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and
link it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on if
you have to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase has
reversed or has a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of distorted,
noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.



Interesting. Are you squaring up the generator's sine output, to give a
good sharp transition for syncing the scope ?


** FFS - that processing is inside any decent scope.

Supply it with 0.5volt rms sine wave and you are away.


The sync circuitry on this Hitachi scope is very good, and will produce a
perfectly stable trigger point from virtually any waveform, no matter how
complex or scruffy,


** Stable maybe, phase locked to the audio generator NO.

can see where it would be useful to be able to have a fixed known trigger
point, and from there, be able to look at relative phasing between amps,
and phase shift within an amp, using a single scope channel.



** Most scope have an internal /external switch you can flick anytime.

If you ever deal with tape recorders or tape echos, there is a big
difference with a play back signal.


.... Phil






  #21   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Arfa Daily"
"Dave Platt"

As a result, an amp which was designed with a "not-so-stiff" power
supply system, may be able to deliver a slightly higher amount of peak
power before it begins to clip and distort.
Dave Platt


Thanks Dave. This seems to be what everyone is thinking, and makes a lot
of sense when you stand back and think about it



** Dave is wrong.

The only time the OOPS idea increases power is when the test frequency is
low, less than 120Hz.

This is why Bob Carver did it - to reduce by half LF ripple on the PS
voltage at frequencies between 20Hz and 120 Hz to meet his published power
specs.



.... Phil







  #22   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Arfa Daily wrote:


"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an
open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In
order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon from
the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered
directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I
noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A"
channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly
where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down
to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber sleeve
on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels'
speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B"
channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two channels
of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the
other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to
the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B",
and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final
output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able
to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual, and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying
that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two amps
or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground'
side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole
(dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would
be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


are these amps run from one power supply?


Sort of. It's one bloody great torroidal tranny, for sure, but it looked as
though there was enough filter caps on the board for it to be otherwise two
independant supplies. Certainly, two sets of + / - / gnd cables came out of
the psu for the two amps, but I must admit that I did not look at its design
closely enough to see if there was two sets of secondary windings, and two
rectifiers. The ground was certainly common to both amps, and one leg of the
output on each amp was that same ground.

Arfa


It looks like others answered what I sort of suspected where they wanted
to try to balance out the + and - rails when the audio peaks. I've never
actually seen this before though.

That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?

  #23   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Cydrome Leader"

That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?



** Bob Carver was an expert at coming up with high falutin' names for
various clever dodges he used to save weight and cost.

His " Magnetic Field " amps were nothing of the kind. They simply employed
a triac based voltage regulator in the AC supply to improve the regulation
factor of a ridiculously small iron transformer.

In his M400 and PM-2 designs, these puny transformers would emit cracking
noises and *smoke* if you ever bench tested them at rated power for more
than 60 seconds. No thermal shut down was fitted to save the trannies
either.

From the blurbs on "Power Steering" it applies to 5.1 channel amps and
allows one audio channel to dominate the load on PSU at any given time.
Likely a simple boost inhibit circuit that allows the use of a puny AC
transformer again.




.... Phil




  #24   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Had an Allen & Heath PA20-CP 2 x 500 watt powered mixer in today. Has
two
completely separate and identical power amps, one of which was running
very
hot very quickly. No schematics, but problem was quickly traced to an
open
circuit resistor, by comparison ohms checks between the two amps. In
order
to replace the resistor, it was necessary to remove the offending ("B")
power amp to get to the board underside. The power rails and ribbon
from
the
mixer desk section were on removable connectors, but the 4 pole speakon
connector was bolted to the rear panel and the wires were soldered
directly
to the board. When I came to unsolder these wires from the socket, I
noticed
that the "B" channel one was wired the opposite way round to the "A"
channel
one. I noted this down to check on later.

When the amp was tested ok, I bolted it back in, and reconnected the
speakon
socket the same as it was when I unsoldered it. The wires lay exactly
where
they originally were, and looked absolutely factory-original, even down
to
the one which went to the uppermost connector tag, having a rubber
sleeve
on
it, exactly the same as on the "A" channel. Except the two channels
were
definitely wired arse-about-face to one another. On both channels'
speakons,
the "1-" and "2-" pins were linked, as were "1+" and "2+". But on
channel
"A" the ground wire was connected to the "+" pair, and on the "B"
channel,
the ground was on the "-" pair.

I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two
channels
of
my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both with the same
polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals were
completely
anti-phase, which meant that with the reversed connections to the
speakon
sockets, they would be back in phase again to the outside world.

I then went back to the power amps' front ends near where the ribbon
connector was, and found the same thing. At the same point on each amp,
the
signals were in opposite phase to one another. I then spotted three
little 3
pin header blocks, with one pin pair on each designated "B", and the
other
pair "A" and a little 1 or maybe an I next to the "A" in a sort of 'to
the
power of' position. On the B amp, these three jumpers were set to "B",
and
on the A amp they were set to "A", so clearly, these jumpers reverse
the
phase of the signal coming in from the desk section. The two amps then
process the signals in antiphase to one another right to the final
output,
where the 'correct' phase relationship is again restored, by wiring the
speakon connector 'wrongly'.

I have puzzled over this, and can think of no good reason for doing it
that
way. I did wonder at one point if it was anything to do with being able
to
make the amps bridgeable, but I downloaded a copy of the user manual,
and
there is a dire warning paragraph towards the end, specifically saying
that
under no circumstances should any attempt be made to operate the amps
in
bridge. It also warns against making any connections between the two
amps
or
any speakers connected to them, although in actual fact, the 'ground'
side
of each output is truly ground, and is common to both amps, the whole
(dual)
power supply, and all metalwork.

What am I missing here ? Not of any real consequence, as the unit is
mended
and back in its original condition, but for academic interest, it would
be
good to understand the designer's thinking.

Arfa


are these amps run from one power supply?


Sort of. It's one bloody great torroidal tranny, for sure, but it looked
as
though there was enough filter caps on the board for it to be otherwise
two
independant supplies. Certainly, two sets of + / - / gnd cables came out
of
the psu for the two amps, but I must admit that I did not look at its
design
closely enough to see if there was two sets of secondary windings, and
two
rectifiers. The ground was certainly common to both amps, and one leg of
the
output on each amp was that same ground.

Arfa


It looks like others answered what I sort of suspected where they wanted
to try to balance out the + and - rails when the audio peaks. I've never
actually seen this before though.

That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?



Probably refers to "rail-switching" where higher voltage power supply rails
are switched in on demand. (during musical peaks).

Has several advantages including being able to get away with a smaller power
transformer and smaller heat sinks. Reduces power dissipation at idle and at
low power.

It's said that such amps can sound nasty - not sure I've ever noticed that.

Mark Z.

  #25   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Phil Allison wrote:

"Cydrome Leader"

That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?



** Bob Carver was an expert at coming up with high falutin' names for
various clever dodges he used to save weight and cost.

His " Magnetic Field " amps were nothing of the kind. They simply employed
a triac based voltage regulator in the AC supply to improve the regulation
factor of a ridiculously small iron transformer.


Hmm, was anybody in the 70s not obsessed with triac pre-regulation in all
sorts of power supplies?

In his M400 and PM-2 designs, these puny transformers would emit cracking
noises and *smoke* if you ever bench tested them at rated power for more
than 60 seconds. No thermal shut down was fitted to save the trannies
either.


nice.


From the blurbs on "Power Steering" it applies to 5.1 channel amps and
allows one audio channel to dominate the load on PSU at any given time.
Likely a simple boost inhibit circuit that allows the use of a puny AC
transformer again.


I own an older 5 channel carver amp. I recall upon opening it that the
power supply seemed way small for the alleged rated power across all
channels. The manual said something about this power steering crap, but
the block schematic didn't show anything indicating it was anything other
than "you can overload a channel a little bit before it burns out or the
fuse blows." It seems ok as far as amps in the early surround sound era
were. My DVD+sound setup is straight from 1998 and is this complex mess of
stuff running into a technics decoder and from there there are 5 RCA
cables running to each channel on the carver amp. There's some goofy fiber
link between the DVD player and the technics thing. Prior to this, I had a
stack of multiple stereos running everything. For a crappy action movie
where everything explodes, balance doesn't really matter.

I'm not even sure how you'd do this these days if you didn't get one of
this does everything consumer amps.








  #26   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 818
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?



Probably refers to "rail-switching" where higher voltage power supply
rails are switched in on demand. (during musical peaks).

Has several advantages including being able to get away with a smaller
power transformer and smaller heat sinks. Reduces power dissipation at
idle and at low power.

It's said that such amps can sound nasty - not sure I've ever noticed
that.

Mark Z.


The Carver PM1.5 had both the triac and inadequate transformer, and rail
switching. High rail was + and - 125v IIRC.



Gareth.

  #27   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 818
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message
...
That reminds me- does anybody unnderstood what Carver's "power steering"
was supposed to be or mean in their amps?



Probably refers to "rail-switching" where higher voltage power supply
rails are switched in on demand. (during musical peaks).

Has several advantages including being able to get away with a smaller
power transformer and smaller heat sinks. Reduces power dissipation at
idle and at low power.

It's said that such amps can sound nasty - not sure I've ever noticed
that.

Mark Z.


The Carver PM1.5 had both the triac and inadequate transformer, and rail
switching. High rail was + and - 125v IIRC.



Gareth.



Er, actually I seem to recall now being corrected on that figure once before
by Mr Allison, and it is slightly less? 117?



Gareth.

  #28   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

According to the manual:

"CONSTANT POWER SWITCH Set the rear panel slide switch to match the impedance of the speakers used. Use the combined impedance value if you are connecting speakers in series or parallel. Choose the nearest match if the value is not exactly 4 or 8 ohms. Note that no damage will be done if the switch is left in the wrong position. However, you may not benefit from the full capability of the amplifier.
􏰀 Constant power explained The typical amplifier is optimised to produce full power into 4 ohms and therefore considerably less into 8 ohms.. The PA Series features a unique facility that ensures you get full power output into either 4 or 8 ohm speakers. It does this by reconfiguring the power supply for optimum current (4 ohms), or voltage (8 ohms)."

Perhaps this is why. They also have the ability through switches to delegate signal to the individual amps for mains and monitors.
  #29   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Cydrome Leader"

** Bob Carver was an expert at coming up with high falutin' names for
various clever dodges he used to save weight and cost.

His " Magnetic Field " amps were nothing of the kind. They simply
employed
a triac based voltage regulator in the AC supply to improve the
regulation
factor of a ridiculously small iron transformer.


Hmm, was anybody in the 70s not obsessed with triac pre-regulation in all
sorts of power supplies?



** What drugs are you on ?

Carver amps were the virtually the only ones to use the idea and the first
( M400) came out in the early 1980s.

( Yamaha made a version and sold about 5. )


.... Phil


  #30   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Gareth Magennis"


The Carver PM1.5 had both the triac and inadequate transformer, and rail
switching. High rail was + and - 125v IIRC.



** No rail switching as such, just diode steering.

The regulated DC rails were +/- 23, +/- 55 +/- 80 and +/- 125.



.... Phil




  #31   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

"Klay_Anderson" wrote in message
news:14356237.137.1320865621980.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnv30...
According to the manual:


"CONSTANT POWER SWITCH Set the rear panel slide switch to match the
impedance of the speakers used. Use the combined impedance value if you
are connecting speakers in series or parallel. Choose the nearest match if
the value is not exactly 4 or 8 ohms. Note that no damage will be done if
the switch is left in the wrong position. However, you may not benefit
from the full capability of the amplifier.
􏰀 Constant power explained The typical amplifier is optimised to produce
full power into 4 ohms and therefore considerably less into 8 ohms. The PA
Series features a unique facility that ensures you get full power output
into either 4 or 8 ohm speakers. It does this by reconfiguring the power
supply for optimum current (4 ohms), or voltage (8 ohms)."


.Perhaps this is why. They also have the ability through switches to
delegate signal to the .individual amps for mains and monitors.



Huh? I would suggest Mr. Carver was doing what he was best known for; taking
an unneeded or ordinary function, obfuscating or renaming it, and making it
a "feature".

More likely, although I have not checked the schematic, that the "impedance
switch" is like those of modern surround receivers: changing the transformer
output voltage downward for "4-ohm" operation, and higher for "8-ohm"
operation.

Like the rail-switching, this reduces quiescent power dissipation and heat
losses, but also limits full power capability.

Example:

I ran into an older McIntosh MA-6100 the other day. I didn't remember it had
a "4-ohm - 8-ohm" switch. So I tested it.

In the "4-ohm" position, it was a 50-watt per channel amp.

In the "8-ohm" position, it got about 90 watts at clipping.


Mark Z.

  #32   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Mark Zacharias"

"CONSTANT POWER SWITCH Set the rear panel slide switch to match the
impedance of the speakers used. Use the combined impedance value if you
are connecting speakers in series or parallel. Choose the nearest match
if the value is not exactly 4 or 8 ohms. Note that no damage will be done
if the switch is left in the wrong position. However, you may not benefit
from the full capability of the amplifier.
􏰀 Constant power explained The typical amplifier is optimised to
produce full power into 4 ohms and therefore considerably less into 8
ohms. The PA Series features a unique facility that ensures you get full
power output into either 4 or 8 ohm speakers. It does this by
reconfiguring the power supply for optimum current (4 ohms), or voltage

(8 ohms)."


.Perhaps this is why. They also have the ability through switches to
delegate signal to the .individual amps for mains and monitors.



Huh? I would suggest Mr. Carver was doing what he was best known for;
taking an unneeded or ordinary function, obfuscating or renaming it, and
making it a "feature".



** The paragraph is from Allan and Heath.



..... Phil



  #33   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"
"Phil Allison"
"Arfa Daily"


I fired it up again, and put a sine wave in, then hooked up two
channels of my 'scope, one to the "A" output and one to the "B", both
with the same polarity, and was surprised to find that the two signals
were completely anti-phase,


** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and if
there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering off
the incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode - so AF
used both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and
link it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on if
you have to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase has
reversed or has a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of distorted,
noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.



Interesting. Are you squaring up the generator's sine output, to give a
good sharp transition for syncing the scope ?


** FFS - that processing is inside any decent scope.

Supply it with 0.5volt rms sine wave and you are away.



I'll have to look at that on my scope, but off the top of my head, I thought
that the trigger point was still adjustable on external and could be set
anywhere on the trigger signal and if so, I'm not sure that I see how it
helps to trigger the scope externally from the same sine wave as it would
use internally on auto trigger. I can see how it would be helpful to have a
fixed trigger point, virtually at the beginning of a cycle, by squaring up
the generator's output, and then feeding that to the external trigger input.

Arfa


  #34   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Arfa Daily"

** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and if
there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering off
the incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode - so
AF used both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and
link it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on if
you have to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase has
reversed or has a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of distorted,
noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.



Interesting. Are you squaring up the generator's sine output, to give a
good sharp transition for syncing the scope ?


** FFS - that processing is inside any decent scope.

Supply it with 0.5volt rms sine wave and you are away.



I'll have to look at that on my scope, but off the top of my head, I
thought that the trigger point was still adjustable on external and could
be set anywhere on the trigger signal and if so, I'm not sure that I see
how it helps to trigger the scope externally from the same sine wave as it
would use internally on auto trigger.



** But it is NOT the same sine wave !!!!!!!!!!!!

Various audio devices invert, phase shift, phase modulate and even time
shift sine waves !!!


I can see how it would be helpful to have a fixed trigger point, virtually
at the beginning of a cycle,



** Best set the trigger level to a zero crossing of the generator feed so
the same wave on the scope starts at a zero.

I have mine so the first half cycle is positive when there is no phase
shift.

With external synch, the scope is always triggered and the level on the
screen does not matter.

FFS - TRY IT !!!!!!!!!!!



.... Phil





  #35   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Phil Allison wrote:

"Cydrome Leader"

** Bob Carver was an expert at coming up with high falutin' names for
various clever dodges he used to save weight and cost.

His " Magnetic Field " amps were nothing of the kind. They simply
employed
a triac based voltage regulator in the AC supply to improve the
regulation
factor of a ridiculously small iron transformer.


Hmm, was anybody in the 70s not obsessed with triac pre-regulation in all
sorts of power supplies?



** What drugs are you on ?


Want some?

As I said, all sorts of old power supplies were made with SCRs and
preregulators before the transformer.

The smaller HP/Agilent bench power supplies are still made this way. I
guess you get a smaller heatsink and a little more efficiency.






  #36   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,716
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?


"Cydrome Leader"

Hmm, was anybody in the 70s not obsessed with triac pre-regulation in
all
sorts of power supplies?



** What drugs are you on ?


Want some?

As I said, all sorts of old power supplies were made with SCRs and
preregulators before the transformer.



** But not in audio amplifiers !!!

You PITA ****wit troll.



.... Phil




  #37   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,910
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

Phil Allison wrote:

"Cydrome Leader"

Hmm, was anybody in the 70s not obsessed with triac pre-regulation in
all
sorts of power supplies?


** What drugs are you on ?


Want some?

As I said, all sorts of old power supplies were made with SCRs and
preregulators before the transformer.



** But not in audio amplifiers !!!

You PITA ****wit troll.


Oh goody, you're so smart, you just figured out that "all sorts of power
supplies" is not a subset of audio amplifiers. When did this occur to you?



  #38   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,772
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?



"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"

** When servicing audio, knowing the polarity of the test signal and
if there is significant phase shift is important. A scope triggering
off the incoming wave will it not reveal this in single channel mode -
so AF used both channels.

A much better way is to use the External Synch input on your scope and
link it to a fixed output on your bench audio oscillator ( create on
if you have to). This way, you see instantly if the signal's phase
has reversed or has a large phase shift.

Also, triggering will be rock steady with nearly any kind of
distorted, noisy or contaminated signal on the scope screen.

Try it out for a day or two - you will never go back.



Interesting. Are you squaring up the generator's sine output, to give a
good sharp transition for syncing the scope ?

** FFS - that processing is inside any decent scope.

Supply it with 0.5volt rms sine wave and you are away.



I'll have to look at that on my scope, but off the top of my head, I
thought that the trigger point was still adjustable on external and could
be set anywhere on the trigger signal and if so, I'm not sure that I see
how it helps to trigger the scope externally from the same sine wave as
it would use internally on auto trigger.



** But it is NOT the same sine wave !!!!!!!!!!!!

Various audio devices invert, phase shift, phase modulate and even time
shift sine waves !!!


I can see how it would be helpful to have a fixed trigger point,
virtually at the beginning of a cycle,



** Best set the trigger level to a zero crossing of the generator feed so
the same wave on the scope starts at a zero.

I have mine so the first half cycle is positive when there is no phase
shift.

With external synch, the scope is always triggered and the level on the
screen does not matter.

FFS - TRY IT !!!!!!!!!!!



... Phil



Yeah, ok. I tried it today, and I see what you're saying now. Once you've
set the trigger point on the sine sample from the generator that you're
driving the external trigger input from, then that's it fixed for all
subsequent measurements and you should be able to see any phase shifts or
inversions. When I said about squaring up the sample, I was thinking that by
doing this, not only do you phase lock the scope to the original wave, you
also have an always-known point that the triggering is locked to. If you did
the squaring with a decent comparator, that trigger point could be fixed
within a few degrees of the zero crossing for all cases, eliminating the
need to twiddle the trigger level, and pick some arbitrary point anywhere on
the rising or falling slopes of the sine.

Arfa

  #39   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,833
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

The most likely reason is that it reduces the peak current drawn from each
side of the power supply.


  #40   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,833
Default Thoughts on this little oddity, anyone ...?

That reminds me - does anybody understand what Carver's
"power steering" was supposed to be or mean in their amps?


Whatever Bob meant it to mean. Bob was notorious for coming up with
desciptions that bore little or no relationship to how the circuit actually
worked.


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electrical oddity Limp Arbor Home Repair 1 March 28th 11 04:41 PM
Garage door opener oddity uncle K Home Repair 12 October 1st 09 05:52 PM
Doorbell Oddity Charles Bishop[_2_] Home Repair 5 October 9th 08 06:36 AM
switch wiring oddity Witchy UK diy 5 September 13th 04 11:12 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"