Anyone else coming across this ? Twice in about 2 months, an owner of new
music kit wanting me to repair intermittant faults after being used only a
few times from new. So loosing his warranty rights. 2 different companies ,
reason for first owner foregoing his rights, unknown. This second time
owner was quoted 2 months minimum turn around, sending back to the factory
(import/asembly plant) in another part of the country, but otherwise no
charge. Is there an excessive number of returns these days or what is the
reason?

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:30:03 +0100, "N_Cook"
wrote:

Anyone else coming across this ?

Yes. It's a major source of my business. Usually it's someone who
has purchased an extended warranty with onsite repair, that is on try
#3 to get it fixed right. Some things just can't be done at the
customers home or office. Similarly, with purchases of Apple Care,
who really don't want to wait up to 4 months to get their whatever
fixed. If they really need their computer to working now, they'll
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me.

Twice in about 2 months, an owner of new
music kit wanting me to repair intermittant faults after being used only a
few times from new. So loosing his warranty rights. 2 different companies ,
reason for first owner foregoing his rights, unknown. This second time
owner was quoted 2 months minimum turn around, sending back to the factory
(import/asembly plant) in another part of the country, but otherwise no
charge. Is there an excessive number of returns these days or what is the
reason?

It's the 2 month delay that is probably the primary incentive. A
friend, looking over my shoulder, casually mentioned that it took a
large telescope manufacturer about 7 months to return his telescope
for out of warranty repair. Delays are also not very consistent. I've
seen amazingly fast turn around by HP and Dell on warranty repairs
(usually exchange for another repaired unit), followed by atrocious
delays the next month, sometimes losing the item. My guess is that
all these vendors are using outsourced repair facilities, which are
having their own problems ranging from too much business (overload),
to variations on ineptitude.

Locally, the various authorized service centers, are constantly
complaining about delivery delays on replacement components. Their
contract with the manufacturer requires that they use only brand new
parts, obtained directly from the manufacturer. No eBay or
cannibalized parts. So, the customers waits, even though the missing
part is sitting only a few feet away.

Drivel: You have no idea how many laptop hinges I repair. Actually,
I have no idea either as I don't keep count, but it's plenty. Broken
hinges seem to be a problem. Some vendors cover them under warranty,
while others claim that since their hinges are perfect, it must be
customer abuse that caused them to break apart.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:51:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

I forgot to include my warranty certificate:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

"Jeff Liebermann"

I forgot to include my warranty certificate:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html

** ROTFL !!

You have inspired me to maybe create something similar.

The audio gear I see and repair is all used in live entertainment, both
portable and installed systems.

At least 90% of the failures are CAUSED by careless an continuous abuse of
the gear - I consider turning all the knobs on a Marshall up to 10 and
thrashing it to death to be in that category.

So, my repair guarantee goes like this:

" I guarantee that if you continue to abuse any item I have repaired for you
OR do again the same stupid thing that caused it to fail before - it is
GUARANTEED to fail again.

The usual service charges apply to all items covered under this guarantee. "



..... Phil

"Jeff Urban"
"Jeff Liebermann"

"they'll
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me. "

I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ?


** Think Jeff L had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he referred to
himself as "disreputable".

Because Jeff L has apparently not sought or been granted "Authorised
Repairer " status for any brands - he might be seen as disreputable by
some people. As with many things, the direct opposite is actually the case.

So called "Authorised Repairers" are under the most odious kinds of contract
which force them to become aligned with the maker's or importer's demands
and whims rather than their own or their customer's natural interests.

Few if any customers understand this difference and falsely imagine they are
still dealing with a normal repairer.

A normal repairer charges for every job, will tell customers what they found
wrong and how to avoid a repeat. They also do their best to avoid returns
under repair warranties - so shonky " patch up " repairs are just not on.
If the item is clearly a lemon, they will gently point that out too.

OTOH contract warranty repairers do not charge, tell the customer nothing
( or else a pack of bull ) and do work that need only last until the maker's
warranty period expires. They will not openly criticise anything sold under
the brand names they are contracted to work on - no matter how awful it is.

IOW, a contracted repairer is at permanently at war with his own customers.

I can hardly imagine any situation more *disreputable*.



..... Phil

"Jeff Liebermann"
" Jeff Urban"

If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
is disreputable about that ?

The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
competence.

** ROTFL - I doubt there is even one importer or manufacturer in Australia
capable of making that determination with any accuracy. After all, how
would any of them know ?? They are NOT operating repair businesses, have
no understanding of them and generally take no interest in the topic.

Anecdote:

One time, back in the 80s, I worked for a repair business that had
"authorised" service arrangements for several brands of guitar amp -
including Marshall, Acoustic and ELFA.

The Greek lunatic who imported Acoustic into Australia decided that he could
" micro-manage " the servicing of his brand by making up " kits " of spare
parts that all service techs would have to buy to repair various classes of
fault. All one needed to do was tell HIM the fault scenario and he would
nominate the kit that you needed to purchase. Ordering individual parts as
required was simply no longer an option.

He claimed to me on the phone that all the auto importers and makers were
doing the same thing and it was more " efficient ". Soooo, I told him about
the fault in the unit I had on the bench - that it suffered from loud,
very intermittent crackling noises. After a long pause, he said to ship the
unit down to him, in Melbourne, 500 miles away.

The boss and I did no such stupid thing, of course.

Anecdote 2.

A Melbourne based maker of guitar amps ( ELFA) had issues with their latest
models:

1. The quad op-amps ( all RC4136s) in the pre-amp section were from a faulty
batch ( rejects?) with about a 50% failure rate in the first 3 months. The
maker had earmarked all their remaining stock for manufacture and REFUSED to
supply any spares to us for warranty repairs.

2. Some nut case, probably as an after thought, had fitted stereo headphone
sockets to the amps with no series limiting resistors. The left and right
earphone connections were simply linked to the internal amplifier module and
the speaker connected itself when there was no plug in place.

Soooo, soon as anyone plugged a mono jack into the headphone socket - bang
went the Sanken 60 watt amp module inside. Then, soon as the mono plug was
removed, a 40 volt DC rail was linked to the 12 inch speaker and burnt it
out.

The 12 inch speaker was made right here in Sydney and despite the scenario
being non warrantee, the people in Melbourne wanted US to send the 6 kg
wrecks down to them for appraisal before they would agree to supply a new
one.

The boss told them to shove it.

From then on, we sourced all needed parts ourselves ( including speakers)
got Marshall and Fender mains and output transformers re-wound as needed and
saved ourselves and our customers a lot of grief. We did no more warranty
work.



...... Phil

Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:30:03 +0100, "N_Cook"
wrote:

Anyone else coming across this ?

Yes. It's a major source of my business. Usually it's someone who
has purchased an extended warranty with onsite repair, that is on try
#3 to get it fixed right. Some things just can't be done at the
customers home or office. Similarly, with purchases of Apple Care,
who really don't want to wait up to 4 months to get their whatever
fixed. If they really need their computer to working now, they'll
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me.

Twice in about 2 months, an owner of new
music kit wanting me to repair intermittant faults after being used only
a
few times from new. So loosing his warranty rights. 2 different companies
,
reason for first owner foregoing his rights, unknown. This second time
owner was quoted 2 months minimum turn around, sending back to the
factory
(import/asembly plant) in another part of the country, but otherwise no
charge. Is there an excessive number of returns these days or what is the
reason?

It's the 2 month delay that is probably the primary incentive. A
friend, looking over my shoulder, casually mentioned that it took a
large telescope manufacturer about 7 months to return his telescope
for out of warranty repair. Delays are also not very consistent. I've
seen amazingly fast turn around by HP and Dell on warranty repairs
(usually exchange for another repaired unit), followed by atrocious
delays the next month, sometimes losing the item. My guess is that
all these vendors are using outsourced repair facilities, which are
having their own problems ranging from too much business (overload),
to variations on ineptitude.

Locally, the various authorized service centers, are constantly
complaining about delivery delays on replacement components. Their
contract with the manufacturer requires that they use only brand new
parts, obtained directly from the manufacturer. No eBay or
cannibalized parts. So, the customers waits, even though the missing
part is sitting only a few feet away.

Drivel: You have no idea how many laptop hinges I repair. Actually,
I have no idea either as I don't keep count, but it's plenty. Broken
hinges seem to be a problem. Some vendors cover them under warranty,
while others claim that since their hinges are perfect, it must be
customer abuse that caused them to break apart.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS


Is this the scenario.
These companies import populated boards from China etc and asssemble in this
country ( England). Apart from a designer there may be no one technical
enough in the assembly plant to do repair. Which is fine when there are
plenty of new units around to send out as in-warranty replacements. But that
only works if the rate of returns is say 2 percent , the returns sold on in
that specialist auction house in Nottingham . But if the returns is more
like 10 percent then it will impact on the viability of the company

My favorite example is the cell phone. I have a small side business
repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.

I'm curious. My current cell phone -- a Korean Lucky Goldstar -- is almost
five years old. Never had problems with it, and it's in great shape. (I
rarely abuse my purchases.) What, exactly, are the things you see that
suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?

On a related note... I was talking with a friend who's my age, and owns a
company that makes consumer audio equipment. He agreed with me that pride of
ownership has largely disappeared. Nothing seems to be of lasting value.
Products become obsolete after only a few months.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 04:08:59 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

My favorite example is the cell phone. I have a small side business
repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.

I'm curious. My current cell phone -- a Korean Lucky Goldstar -- is almost
five years old. Never had problems with it, and it's in great shape. (I
rarely abuse my purchases.) What, exactly, are the things you see that
suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?

Mechanical damage, broken hinges, scratched screens, fingernails
through the key tops, mangled connector covers, broken antennas,
cracked earphone connectors, cracked power/accessory connectors, water
damage, dirt, filth, crud, good, pogs, labels, cracked case, bulging
batteries, etc.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/cell-phones-02.jpg
These are some of the recent arrivals, after some cleaning. The
really beat up phones, I don't bother trying to fix (unless I need the
parts). My guess is that I have about 150 phones in stock.

Other vendors:
http://www.recellular.com
http://www.dotcells.com
etc...

Incidentally, LG phones are generally good quality, fairly easy to
fix, and tend to survive. I've had problems with the ENV2 models
falling apart. I'm currently using an LG VX-8300.

On a related note... I was talking with a friend who's my age, and owns a
company that makes consumer audio equipment. He agreed with me that pride of
ownership has largely disappeared. Nothing seems to be of lasting value.
Products become obsolete after only a few months.

Products are obsolete on arrival. The next generation and possibly
one or two generations after that are in the design, manufacture, and
distribution chain when the current version hits the market. Because
the obvious answer to any problems with the current model is to just
wait for the "new and improved" model that follows, there's no
incentive to fix any of the first generation problems.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, LG phones are generally good quality, fairly easy to
fix, and tend to survive.

As I was leaning over a railing, talking on it, my LG slipped from my
hand and fell 14 feet onto concrete. It landed flat. Back came off,
battery popped out. Nary a scratch and works perfectly since.

"Jeff Liebermann"

Some ****** asked:

What, exactly, are the things you see that
suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?

Mechanical damage, broken hinges, scratched screens, fingernails
through the key tops, mangled connector covers, broken antennas,
cracked earphone connectors, cracked power/accessory connectors, water
damage, dirt, filth, crud, good, pogs, labels, cracked case, bulging
batteries, etc.


** I was given a " Palm Pilot " to fix once.

About two weeks prior to my receiving it - a whole container of yoghurt
( flavour unknown) had leaked over it while in a woman's handbag. The woman
concerned had then only wiped it over with a cloth and noted it did not
work.

She left the battery inside - so of course it was ruined.

My own mobile has copped a spillage of bleach and also of liquid detergent
in a similar way - but by immediately removing the battery and rinsing it
with warm water, it lives to fight another day.

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??

Get the damn battery OUT immediately - then rinse and dry it pronto.



..... Phil

On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:06:04 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, LG phones are generally good quality, fairly easy to
fix, and tend to survive.

As I was leaning over a railing, talking on it, my LG slipped from my
hand and fell 14 feet onto concrete. It landed flat. Back came off,
battery popped out. Nary a scratch and works perfectly since.

Have you noticed that most cell phones have rounded corners and
bottoms? The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped. However,
that doesn't seem to be a design feature in smartphones, which more
closely resemble a box due to the requirement of having a large
rectangular screen. Drop a smart phone, and they're history. The
number of cracked screens on the iPhone and Droid should offer a clue.
They do have somewhat rounded corners, but with a metal frame, any
edge impact transfers directly to the glass screen.

There are some better ideas, but these will need to wait for a change
in public acceptance of what a cell phone should look like:
http://gadgetsin.com/bugatty-cell-phone-shaped-as-bugatti-veyron.htm
http://www.porhomme.com/2008/12/the-concept-handgun-with-built-in-cellphone/
http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/dya-cell-phone-slides-diagonally-to-make-or-receive-a-call/
http://www.cellfoam.com
etc...


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:09:39 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??

Because they want you to destroy their product so that you'll buy a
new one. Every product that is repaired is one less product that is
sold.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
If you're into ecology and conservation, repair is a good thing. If
you're into designed obsolescence, then it's a bad thing.

Get the damn battery OUT immediately - then rinse and dry it pronto.

The common perception among cell phone vendors and manufacturers is
that the condition and disposition of the phone, AFTER IT'S SOLD, is
not their problem. If you trash the phone, unless you've purchased
the overpriced extended equipment warranty, it's your problem, not
theirs. In most cases, they don't even bother to repair the wet
phone, and simply issue a replacement (or try to sell you an upgrade).
I suppose safety might be a possible justification for removing the
battery, but selling the customer a new phone is far more profitable.

I suppose we could include some verbage in the voluminous book of
legal disclaimers and limitations of responsibility that seems to be
included with all consumer products these days. Removing the battery
would fit nicely between "Do not eat the phone" and "Do not go
swimming with your cell phone".

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:09:39 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??

Because they want you to destroy their product so that you'll buy a
new one. Every product that is repaired is one less product that is
sold.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
If you're into ecology and conservation, repair is a good thing. If
you're into designed obsolescence, then it's a bad thing.

Get the damn battery OUT immediately - then rinse and dry it pronto.

The common perception among cell phone vendors and manufacturers is
that the condition and disposition of the phone, AFTER IT'S SOLD, is
not their problem. If you trash the phone, unless you've purchased
the overpriced extended equipment warranty, it's your problem, not
theirs. In most cases, they don't even bother to repair the wet
phone, and simply issue a replacement (or try to sell you an upgrade).
I suppose safety might be a possible justification for removing the
battery, but selling the customer a new phone is far more profitable.

I suppose we could include some verbage in the voluminous book of
legal disclaimers and limitations of responsibility that seems to be
included with all consumer products these days. Removing the battery
would fit nicely between "Do not eat the phone" and "Do not go
swimming with your cell phone".


Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)

Best one IMHO was the directions I got with a stainless steel coffee
percolator:

"Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:09:39 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??

One vendor tries to be ummmm... helpful:
http://www.printingchoice.com/8-examples-of-horrific-fine-print/
Near the bottom of the page:
"Motorola Razr: Do not try to dry your phone in a microwave"
Well, it's a start.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)

Best one IMHO was the directions I got with a stainless steel coffee
percolator:

"Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."


Sure, but that because you would have to lay it on it's side. ;-)


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."

You are an engineer somewhere ? I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
should be if you aren't. That's the way to think. Look at how some
things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
what they were thinking.

I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
and watch the result through a current resistor, **** like that, but I
am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others. But
I can think of it from their viewpoint. All they care is get it on the
shelves intact working and sellable. After that the minimum warranty
possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
But the US government works for us.

Think I'm ****ing kidding ?

J

Best one IMHO was the directions I got
with a stainless steel coffee percolator:
"Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

William Sommerwerck wrote:

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)

In fact, anyone with a computer capable of playing youtube videos or a tv
with the discovery channel has seen the effect of a microwave on a CD.

On the other hand, a coffee percolator is not a young person's device,
only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
the concept of no metal in a micro. :-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
find itself liable for a free replacement. * In many cases, a customer could
visit the nearest cell phone store and get a replacement in less time.

Nikon once ran an ad about a photographer in India who'd accidentally dunked
his F. He carried it some distance in a bucket of fresh water (which was
then standard for photo equipment -- you kept the camera wet until you got
it to a service tech), periodically removing it to snap a shot! (It's not
clear how the film survived this treatment.)

Almost 30 years ago, while on a canoe trip, my Olympus XA got completely
immersed. I immediately bought another one, but I discovered -- several
years later -- that it still worked! And it still is working! It didn't rust
or corrode. Amazing. Structural plastics -- ya gotta love 'em.

* About 15 years ago, I took my HP 4M into work, because we were doing so
much printing there weren't enough printers to go around. (The company later
bought me a replacement toner cartridge.) As I was carrying it out of my
apartment, the paper tray came loose and crashed on the concrete steps,
breaking. This was around the time of a major California earthquake, and HP
had run an ad telling how another model of laser printer had fallen to the
floor without damage. I pointed out that HP couldn't very well use this fact
as an inducement to buy their products, then object when I asked for a
replacement tray that had been subjected to similar abuse. After some
haggling, I was sent a slightly used tray at no charge.

On the other hand, a coffee percolator is not a young person's device,
only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
the concept of no metal in a micro. :-)

Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
microwave, and nothing bad will happen.

The issue isn't metal, per se -- a metal plate reflects microwaves as the
cavity walls do -- but sharp spots at which the field intensity is so high
that you get corona discharge or arcing.

I once put a jar of Adam's peanut butter in the microwave to warm it -- and
you should have seen the arcing at the tiny -- really tiny -- bits of
aluminum that were left on the lip from the seal.

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 01:11:21 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Urban
wrote:

"The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."

You are an engineer somewhere ?

Yep. Wit out mah spellin chequer, I kin spel just like an engineer.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-liebermann/0/823/151

I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
should be if you aren't. That's the way to think.

Thanks. The down side of being an engineer is the bad habit of
looking at any product and thinking that it could have been designed
better. For example, the doctor recommended I get some exercise. So,
I bought a bicycle, then another, etc, until I now have far too many
bicycles:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/index.html
Instead of riding them, I've been looking at the way they work, and
the way the components are designed. I've read some books on design,
researched patents, performed my own repairs, rebuilt a few bikes, and
pondered the logic behind the designs. Of course, I think I can do
better and have designed and built a few experimental components that
I might eventually sell. The problem is, I'm so busy analyzing the
bicycles, I don't have much time left to actually ride them. According
to the bicycle computah, I've only ridden about 100 miles in the last
3 months.

Look at how some
things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
what they were thinking.

Yep. However, that's not exactly the way I do it. I think "What
problem were they trying to solve"? If you understand the motivation,
you usually understand the rational. That's often difficult when
dealing with industrial design and artistic concerns. The problem may
have been nothing more than product differentiation, or trying to look
sufficiently different than the rest of the pack. For example, the
rounded corners have many potential benefits besides surviving a drop
test. Rounded corners appeal more to women, while men prefer more
angular products. It's easier to mold parts with rounded angles, than
with angular corners. It may have been simply functional, so that the
iPhone doesn't rip one's pocket or purse liner. It might have been
human factors, where talking on a phone with a sharp edge digging into
one's palm, is not exactly ergonomic.

I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
and watch the result through a current resistor, **** like that, but I
am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others.

Welcome to the age of specialization. It's a dangerous place to be as
when your specialty is suddenly exported overseas, you're potentially
unemployable. I saw the problem early. Officially, I was an RF
engineer. However, I made the effort to get experience in many
adjacent fields, and bounced around the company doing almost
everything. Hint: avoid specialization.

But
I can think of it from their viewpoint.

You need to attend a few product brainstorming and subsequent design
review meetings to really understand how things work. Reverse
engineering is possible only if the motivations that inspired the
designs are logical. I've seen designs that were based on faulty
marketing, bad guesses as to user needs, managerial egos, and simple
stupidity. The designs that worked and sold were deemed brilliant.
Those that failed were deemed, ummm.... something else. For example,
the first incantation of the iPod player, was the Diamond Rio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300
which pre-dated the iPod by about 3 years. It was very similar to the
iPod, but instead was a flop. There were many problems, but the big
one as that Apple solved the legal issues prior to release, while
Diamond did not. Diamond spent the initial years fighting lawsuits,
while Apple had already made a deal with the recording industry. You
could not have determined any of this just looking at the product and
trying to reverse engineer the logic behind the design.

All they care is get it on the
shelves intact working and sellable.

Nope. I could easily design almost anything that will appear on the
shelf and be sellable. The trick is to make it profitable for
everyone involved. There's also litigation avoidance, bad press,
timing, reviews, distribution, warehousing, shipping, promotion, ad
infinitum that has to be dealt with. Those are often more difficult
and time consuming than the product design. I recall several product
launches that had to be delayed because of some obscure problem, such
as wrong wording on the legal disclaimers page/book or failure to
display some certification agency's logo with the proper font size.

I've worked on several products where the initial product design took
about 2 weeks. Prototypes and troubleshooting added another 3 weeks.
However, getting it into production, out the door, and into the hands
of paying customers, took an additional 30 weeks, little of which had
much to do with the initial design. In effect, the design was
"frozen" after 2 weeks.

After that the minimum warranty
possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
But the US government works for us.

Not really. If you were ever to do your own product, you'll soon find
that the legal system heavily favors the plaintiff. In Europe, court
costs are paid by the loser, so there's a tremendous counter incentive
to solving problems by litigation. In the US, it's paid by both
parties, meaning that even if you prevail in court, you can easily
lose your potential profits or the company to the legal costs. Product
liability, tort reform, and patent law all currently favor the
"injured" party in the US.

Think I'm ****ing kidding ?

Yes, because engineers don't talk or write like that.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 07:34:19 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
microwave, and nothing bad will happen.

Yep. Some come with metal racks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microwave_metal_shelf.JPG
As long as there is something inside the oven cavity that will ABSORB
the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber, such as with an
empty microwave oven, and the resultant standing waves will build up a
sufficiently large field to initiate arcing.

Of course, put anything, except food, in a microwave oven, and your
warranty is torched.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

As long as there is in the oven that will ABSORB
the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber,
such as with an empty microwave oven, and the
resultant standing waves will build up a sufficiently
large field to initiate arcing.

Even with something to absorb the energy, you can still get arcing from
sharp metal edges.

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know -- what
would happen if a guy put a vacuum tube -- say a biggish
octal one, like a 5Y3 or a 6V6 -- into a microwave and
nuked it?

You'd certainly get arcing from the pins. It's not obvious (to me) how the
tube's elements would react.

On 4/3/2011 5:29 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

William Sommerwerck wrote:

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?

I've nuked CDs and derived many seconds of amusement from that ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"William Sommer****** is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...


** How would a bull****ting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total ********.




...... Phil

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"William Sommer****** is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...

** How would a bull****ting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer
could find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total ********.

Phil... SHUT UP.

On 4/3/2011 3:42 PM William Sommerwerck spake thus:

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know -- what
would happen if a guy put a vacuum tube -- say a biggish
octal one, like a 5Y3 or a 6V6 -- into a microwave and
nuked it?

You'd certainly get arcing from the pins. It's not obvious (to me) how the
tube's elements would react.

Ah, I forgot about the pins. OK, let's say we really have too much time
on our hands and want to continue the experiment, so we get something to
plug the tube into, say a pin straightener, with no exposed metal. What
then?

(What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like that purplish
glow you sometimes see emanating from the plates of overdriven tubes ...)


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"William Sommer****** is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...

** How would a bull****ting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer
could find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total ********.

Phil... SHUT UP.


** **** off and die you vile TROLLING pig.


..... Phil

"David Nebenzahl"

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.


** The blue/ purple glow is emanating from " impurities" in the glass - it
is generated by electrons hitting the glass at high speed.

Most audio power tubes (ie 6L6GCs, EL34s, EL84s and 6550s ) have cut outs
in the plate structures that allow this to happen.

The blue glow will be there when the tube is new ( if it's there at all )
and is not a sign of a problem.

It may be fairly steady or respond to high drive levels - ie when the
plate voltage nearly doubles in magnitude with signal peaks.


..... Phil

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.

If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/3/2011 5:05 PM William Sommerwerck spake thus:

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?

Everything on planet Earth has been put into a microwave. Search YouTube
for "vacuum tube microwave" and you'll get several relevant hits.

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 19:34:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.

If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.

So even after a getter flash there is still a certain amount of
impurities? I've never seen a 6L6 that didn't have some blue inside
when in operation. It looks as though the blue only occurs where the
electron beams hit the inside of the glass. At least in new tubes.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

On Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:27:32 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 19:34:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.

If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.

So even after a getter flash there is still a certain amount of
impurities? I've never seen a 6L6 that didn't have some blue inside
when in operation. It looks as though the blue only occurs where the
electron beams hit the inside of the glass. At least in new tubes.

Yep. As I vaguely recall (which means I didn't Google for a
reference) glass has the irritating habit of collecting impurities and
volatiles during manufacture. Irving Langmuir figured this out in the
1920's working on light bulbs. He would draw the best vacuum possible
and in a few days, find the bulb full of water vapor and other gasses.
The hot filament would break down the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
The oxygen would then oxidize the electrodes, and blacken the inside
of the bulb.

So, he invented a method of baking the glass to remove the volatiles
prior to evacuation and an acid bath to remove some of the impurities.
It also works nicely for vacuum tubes, but like all such processes, is
far from perfect. There's always some impurities left behind.

When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
envelope or seal. The getter does best with reactive gases and does
nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
(or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow. Most
likely helium and argon mix. The small helium molecule will also
diffuse through the glass from the outside air. See photos at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas#Discharge_color

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"

When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
envelope or seal.

** The term covers that eventuality too.

Any tube that has even a tiny air leak will glow a pinkish purple inside
like a *******.


The getter does best with reactive gases and does
nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
(or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow.


** Maybe - but how would any significant amount of Argon get inside the
tube UNLESS there was air leaking in ?

Remember, Argon makes up less than 1% of air and does not react with metal
parts.

The vacuum inside a tube is less than one millionth of atmospheric pressure.

BTW:

Nitrogen mixed with a little CO2 makes a nice, white glow under low
pressure - its called a "Moore Tube"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_McFarlan_Moore

His untimely death was a bit shocking.


..... Phil

On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:53:16 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Jeff Liebermann"

When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
envelope or seal.

** The term covers that eventuality too.

Ok. My bad grammar. I meant that if the tube is deemed "gassy", it's
probably not an air leak in the envelope or seal. It's more likely
gaseous diffusion of helium or neon through the envelope.

Any tube that has even a tiny air leak will glow a pinkish purple inside
like a *******.

Yep. I've seen the pink glow. The only way I could tell the
difference between the nitrogen glow of an air leak:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized_air_glow
and that of a helium diffusion through the glass leak:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas#Discharge_color
was that the nitrogen glow would not last very long as the filament
would burn out due to oxidation.

The getter does best with reactive gases and does
nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
(or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow.

** Maybe - but how would any significant amount of Argon get inside the
tube UNLESS there was air leaking in ?

Remember, Argon makes up less than 1% of air and does not react with metal
parts.

Oops. Y'er correct. Only helium and neon will diffuse through glass.
Argon and larger gas molecules won't diffuse through glass.

The vacuum inside a tube is less than one millionth of atmospheric pressure.

Yeah, but the pressure differential is 14.7 lbs/sq-in. Over the
surface of the 6L6, that's about (assuming a cylinder):
Surface Area = 2 Pi r^2 + 2 pi r h
= (2 * 3.14 * 0.7^2) + (2 * 3.14 * 0.7 * 3.0)
= 16 sq-in
Surface pressure = 16 * 14.7 lbs/sq-in = 235 lbs.
(Yes, I'm guessing at the dimension for a 6L6 as I don't have one
handy). That's quite a bit of pressure pushing the helium and neon
atoms through the glass. Still, for helium, the diffusion rate is
slow (helium through pyrex at STP):
http://teaching.matdl.org/teachingarchives/browser/trunk/matml/transport/problems/hepyrex-solution.pdf?format=raw
8.0 x 10^-8 m^3/hr

Nitrogen mixed with a little CO2 makes a nice, white glow under low
pressure - its called a "Moore Tube"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_McFarlan_Moore
His untimely death was a bit shocking.

I guess his murderer didn't do a proper patent search before starting
work on his invention. We're more civilized these daze. Instead of
murder, we have litigation. It's much like murder in slow motion.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558