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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Electric fence operation problem
2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses.
Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. Doubling the C setting the 3uS pulses, to give longer repeat rate and that intermediary voltage rises to about 3V but still not enough for any proper final output. Adding more C and DC is then much less than 3V. What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply Next stage would be disconnect the thyristor if that should be working but leaky and draining the intermediary DC but any other ideas? Would explain why the printing is very indistinct I suppose. DC ohms of the airgap type transformers are intermediary 0.1R//10.6R HV 0.3R//29R which seem reasonable, ie not major shorted turns if any |
#2
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Electric fence operation problem
Meat Plow wrote in message
... On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:46:36 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote: 2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. Doubling the C setting the 3uS pulses, to give longer repeat rate and that intermediary voltage rises to about 3V but still not enough for any proper final output. Adding more C and DC is then much less than 3V. What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply Next stage would be disconnect the thyristor if that should be working but leaky and draining the intermediary DC but any other ideas? Would explain why the printing is very indistinct I suppose. DC ohms of the airgap type transformers are intermediary 0.1R//10.6R HV 0.3R//29R which seem reasonable, ie not major shorted turns if any I would expect the output to be at fault when you take into consideration all the short circuits electric fencing can encounter. I've disconnected the HV section and no difference. The o/p of the intermediate is 4V pk-pk pulses with designed 3uS osc i/p. Barely enough to exceed the bank of 6 seriesed rectifier diodes . Inductances of the intermediate Tr are 0.1mH and 84mH . i'm wondering if there is shorted turns, will try and find some SMPS to try in reverse. The output Tr is E-I iron cored not HF on closer looking |
#3
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Electric fence operation problem
On Jul 7, 6:46*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. |
#4
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Electric fence operation problem
nesesu wrote in message
... On Jul 7, 6:46 am, "N_Cook" wrote: 2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. Doubling the C setting the 3uS pulses, to give longer repeat rate and that intermediary voltage rises to about 3V but still not enough for any proper final output. Adding more C and DC is then much less than 3V. What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply Next stage would be disconnect the thyristor if that should be working but leaky and draining the intermediary DC but any other ideas? Would explain why the printing is very indistinct I suppose. DC ohms of the airgap type transformers are intermediary 0.1R//10.6R HV 0.3R//29R which seem reasonable, ie not major shorted turns if any Sounds like the unit may have been hit by a lightning surge. I have seen a few and usually all the electronic parts are blown as well at the transformer winding insulation punctured. To your question of intermediate voltage, I would suspect something in the 50-100V range. I imagine that there is a storage cap since your description sounds like a C-D circuit, so one would expect the intermediate voltage to be around 60% of the cap voltage rating, if it is an electrolytic. Neil S. &&&&&&& I'd not thought of that route, will desolder the C, script on the wrong side. I'd expect the dual monostable IC to be knocked out with lightning |
#5
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Electric fence operation problem
On Jul 7, 8:46*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. |
#6
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Electric fence operation problem
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:46:36 +0100, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed: What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply B20 Dry Battery Energiser: http://www.forcefield-uk.co.uk/b20.htm If the above is your electric fence device, then the Stored Joules rating of 0.2J should enable you to calculate the voltage across the HV capacitor. E = 1/2 x C x V^2 so V = sqrt (2 x 0.2 / C) - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#7
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Electric fence operation problem
Franc Zabkar wrote in message
... On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:46:36 +0100, "N_Cook" put finger to keyboard and composed: What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply B20 Dry Battery Energiser: http://www.forcefield-uk.co.uk/b20.htm If the above is your electric fence device, then the Stored Joules rating of 0.2J should enable you to calculate the voltage across the HV capacitor. E = 1/2 x C x V^2 so V = sqrt (2 x 0.2 / C) - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. The cap is 1uF , 280V ac rating. From the .5*C*V*V that comes to 630V, so something awry there. No more than 250V m 60% of likely DC rating, and I would have thought more like an equal split between 12V and 1800V so about 150V, transformers are much the same size if that is anything to go by |
#8
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Electric fence operation problem
If I ever get this thing working properly , how to check the average current
drain? I am thinking 12V supply - ammeter - bank of 20V Cs summing to about 0.1F - fencer unit |
#9
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Electric fence operation problem
that is a current limited 12V supply , not a car battery of course
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#10
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Electric fence operation problem
On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:24:40 +0100, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar wrote in message .. . On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:46:36 +0100, "N_Cook" put finger to keyboard and composed: What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply B20 Dry Battery Energiser: http://www.forcefield-uk.co.uk/b20.htm If the above is your electric fence device, then the Stored Joules rating of 0.2J should enable you to calculate the voltage across the HV capacitor. E = 1/2 x C x V^2 so V = sqrt (2 x 0.2 / C) The cap is 1uF , 280V ac rating. From the .5*C*V*V that comes to 630V, so something awry there. No more than 250V m 60% of likely DC rating, and I would have thought more like an equal split between 12V and 1800V so about 150V, transformers are much the same size if that is anything to go by It may appear counterintuitive, but a rating of 280VAC/630VDC for a metallised polypropylene or polyester capacitor is not uncommon. http://www.aerovox.com/pdf/DC_Film_Axials.pdf http://www.ibselectronics.com/pdf/pa...capacitors.pdf http://www.descartes.com.tw/product/...WIMA_MKP_4.pdf See the Axial Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors on page 10 of the first PDF. In particular, there is a 1uF, 280VAC/630VDC cap, p/n ARPM10563KYUKZZ. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#11
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Electric fence operation problem
Meat Plow wrote in message
... On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:54:46 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote: If I ever get this thing working properly , how to check the average current drain? I am thinking 12V supply - ammeter - bank of 20V Cs summing to about 0.1F - fencer unit Find a cow, sheep or horse willing to test it. I don't think asking one "hoo moony mooliemoomps dooze this moozapper gizmoo take" would get very far |
#12
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Electric fence operation problem
On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:24:40 +0100, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed: The cap is 1uF , 280V ac rating. From the .5*C*V*V that comes to 630V, so something awry there. No more than 250V m 60% of likely DC rating, and I would have thought more like an equal split between 12V and 1800V so about 150V, transformers are much the same size if that is anything to go by If the device is designed to output its rated energy over a 9V-12V supply range, then one would expect that the dump capacitor's voltage would be regulated. Otherwise the variation in the stored energy would be (12/9)^2 = 1.8X. Is there any voltage feedback from the dump cap back to its charge controller? I'd expect to see a resistive potential divider feeding one input of an error amp (comparator?), and maybe a 5V or 2.5V reference on the other input. You may be able to compute the voltage from the resistance values. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#13
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Electric fence operation problem
Franc Zabkar wrote in message
... On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:24:40 +0100, "N_Cook" put finger to keyboard and composed: The cap is 1uF , 280V ac rating. From the .5*C*V*V that comes to 630V, so something awry there. No more than 250V m 60% of likely DC rating, and I would have thought more like an equal split between 12V and 1800V so about 150V, transformers are much the same size if that is anything to go by If the device is designed to output its rated energy over a 9V-12V supply range, then one would expect that the dump capacitor's voltage would be regulated. Otherwise the variation in the stored energy would be (12/9)^2 = 1.8X. Is there any voltage feedback from the dump cap back to its charge controller? I'd expect to see a resistive potential divider feeding one input of an error amp (comparator?), and maybe a 5V or 2.5V reference on the other input. You may be able to compute the voltage from the resistance values. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. There is a chain of 3.3M resistors for feedback , I suspect it would change the 1.5KHz multivibrator rather than the 300KHz one. There is also the 1 to 2 second repetition cycling, perhaps 3 multivibrator package, also unreadable marking |
#14
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Electric fence operation problem
On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:45:56 +0100, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed: There is a chain of 3.3M resistors for feedback , I suspect it would change the 1.5KHz multivibrator rather than the 300KHz one. There is also the 1 to 2 second repetition cycling, perhaps 3 multivibrator package, also unreadable marking I would expect that the multivibrator would have an internal reference voltage which it would compare against the voltage on the resistor at the bottom end of the potential divider. The IC's reference voltage may appear on one of its pins. I would locate where the divider feeds into the IC, and determine the values of all the resistances in the chain. Then measure the voltages on the pins on either side of the feedback pin. If you can supply this information, then perhaps it will help ascertain the capacitor voltage. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#15
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Electric fence operation problem
"N_Cook" wrote in message ... 2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. Doubling the C setting the 3uS pulses, to give longer repeat rate and that intermediary voltage rises to about 3V but still not enough for any proper final output. Adding more C and DC is then much less than 3V. What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply Next stage would be disconnect the thyristor if that should be working but leaky and draining the intermediary DC but any other ideas? Would explain why the printing is very indistinct I suppose. DC ohms of the airgap type transformers are intermediary 0.1R//10.6R HV 0.3R//29R which seem reasonable, ie not major shorted turns if any Hi, I found this schematic (circuit diagram) somewhere on the net, is it anything like your one ? http://www.electro-tech-online.com/a...ctricfence.jpg Ian. |
#16
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Electric fence operation problem
Ian French wrote in message
... "N_Cook" wrote in message ... 2 stage derivation of (should be) 1800V pulses. Fence had failure in the first stage probably due to intermittant corroded battery supply contact. Anyway the 15A 60V 8N06 powerFET blew along with an associated double diode BAV23. Replaced both and works to some extent. This FET has plenty of drive 5V of pulses of repeat 3uS for the gate and about 3V ringing swing on the output to the first step up transformer. I assume that is as to be expected, never having the chance to see hot-side SMPS drive scope traces. But rectified output only climbs to about 1V of DC before the final stage (unreadable marking) thyristor discharges that supply into the second step up transformer, but of course not even enough to get a glow on a 110V neon. Doubling the C setting the 3uS pulses, to give longer repeat rate and that intermediary voltage rises to about 3V but still not enough for any proper final output. Adding more C and DC is then much less than 3V. What would people expect the intermediary DC to be? obviously higher than 12V battery supply Next stage would be disconnect the thyristor if that should be working but leaky and draining the intermediary DC but any other ideas? Would explain why the printing is very indistinct I suppose. DC ohms of the airgap type transformers are intermediary 0.1R//10.6R HV 0.3R//29R which seem reasonable, ie not major shorted turns if any Hi, I found this schematic (circuit diagram) somewhere on the net, is it anything like your one ? http://www.electro-tech-online.com/a...ects-design-id eas-reviews/4007d1108193301-need-help-developing-electric-fencing-my-farm-el ectricfence.jpg Ian. The 'IV' and HV stage is very similar, this one has a lot of SM so a bit more distributed for the higher voltages, ie tripling up of diodes and Rs Do you have the URL of the text relating to that pic Search on that site just enigmatically/awkwardly/insultingly returns "The answer given for the random question was incorrect." |
#17
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Electric fence operation problem
Googled for it
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/e...ideas-reviews/ 13848-need-help-developing-electric-fencing-my-farm.html |
#18
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Electric fence operation problem
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:42:04 +0100, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed: Do you have the URL of the text relating to that pic That Dick Smith kit was based on Silicon Chip Magazine's April 1999 High Power Electric Fence Controller. FWIW, here is the PCB and front panel label: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/at...99&month=April If you can't locate the technical description on SC's web site, let me know and I'll look through my paperwork. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
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