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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
I'm having a problem with my 20 gallon, single stage electric air compressor. It's acting like the motor is underpowered - it pumps up to about 95 psi ok, but then the motor stalls. The unloader bleeds the pressure off, the motor restarts, runs for a couple of seconds, and then stops again...repeat...repeat... It worked fine for years (The pressure switch would shut it down at about 120 psi) but over the past few months, it's gotten worse and worse, and now will only make about 90-95 psi before the motor stalls. I cleaned and lubricated the compressor itself, and it spins freely and doesn't appear to be binding or otherwise have excessive friction. The check valve/unloader is working and the piping is all open and clear. It seems like the electric motor (1/3 hp) just no longer has the oomph it used to. It starts up fine, no humming, no smoking, no bad smells, no clunks. It just doesn't seem to have enough running torque to handle the load like it did before. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! |
#2
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
[]
It seems like the electric motor (1/3 hp) just no longer has the oomph it used to. It starts up fine, no humming, no smoking, no bad smells, no clunks. It just doesn't seem to have enough running torque to handle the load like it did before. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! If it's a DC motor, maybe it needs new brushes? |
#3
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Mar 3, 9:13*pm, (Sparks Fergusson) wrote:
I'm having a problem with my 20 gallon, single stage electric air compressor. It's acting like the motor is underpowered - it pumps up to about 95 psi ok, but then the motor stalls. The unloader bleeds the pressure off, the motor restarts, runs for a couple of seconds, and then stops again...repeat...repeat... It worked fine for years (The pressure switch would shut it down at about 120 psi) but over the past few months, it's gotten worse and worse, and now will only make about 90-95 psi before the motor stalls. I cleaned and lubricated the compressor itself, and it spins freely and doesn't appear to be binding or otherwise have excessive friction. The check valve/unloader is working and the piping is all open and clear. It seems like the electric motor (1/3 hp) just no longer has the oomph it used to. It starts up fine, no humming, no smoking, no bad smells, no clunks. It just doesn't seem to have enough running torque to handle the load like it did before. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! I agree to check the brushes, if it's not a brushless motor. Does the unloader bleed the entire tank off? If so, then the check valve is probably bad. It could also be that your shutoff set point has self adjusted back. Say your fill point is at 95 lbs, and your shutoff self adjusts down to around 95 lbs, it can cause it to continuously turn on and off. I had a compressor that used to do this to me for a while, until I put a little locktight on the adjustment screw. It could be just a worn out pressure switch as well. Maybe the spring has become weak in it. |
#4
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#5
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#7
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On 3/3/2010 9:13 PM, Sparks Fergusson wrote:
I'm having a problem with my 20 gallon, single stage electric air compressor. It's acting like the motor is underpowered - it pumps up to about 95 psi ok, but then the motor stalls. The unloader bleeds the pressure off, the motor restarts, runs for a couple of seconds, and then stops again...repeat...repeat... It worked fine for years (The pressure switch would shut it down at about 120 psi) but over the past few months, it's gotten worse and worse, and now will only make about 90-95 psi before the motor stalls. I cleaned and lubricated the compressor itself, and it spins freely and doesn't appear to be binding or otherwise have excessive friction. The check valve/unloader is working and the piping is all open and clear. It seems like the electric motor (1/3 hp) just no longer has the oomph it used to. It starts up fine, no humming, no smoking, no bad smells, no clunks. It just doesn't seem to have enough running torque to handle the load like it did before. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! Do you know for sure that your gauge is correct? Maybe the compressor and pressure switch are fine. |
#8
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Sansui Samari wrote:
On Mar 3, 9:13=A0pm, (Sparks Fergusson) wrote: I agree to check the brushes, if it's not a brushless motor. It's an AC induction motor, so no brushes. Could it be a capacitor issue? Does the unloader bleed the entire tank off? If so, then the check valve is probably bad. It's a combination check/unloader valve. I cleaned and lubricated it, and it appears to be working fine. The tank holds pressure - the unloader just vents the tube between the tank and the compressor. It could also be that your shutoff set point has self adjusted back. Good thought, but the pressure switch seems to be functioning well. I am getting around the problem by turning down the pressure below the point where the motor stalls. But, that's only about 90 psi, which is not as much as I'd like. Plus, the problem seems to be getting worse. Thanks! |
#9
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
PeterD wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:13:31 GMT, lid (Sparks Fergusson) wrote: I'm having a problem with my 20 gallon, single stage electric air compressor. ... Bad pressure switch. The unloader is part of the pressure switch so if it is being activated, the pressure switch is 'saying' that the pressure is sufficient. Maybe it is just mis-adjusted. Actually, it's a mechanical unloader (combination check valve/unloader, which I have already cleaned and lubricated.) It seems to be working well. Check the adjusting screws, and reset the cutoff back to 120 PSI. Confirm the cuton is at 95 PSI. The pressure swicth seems to be working fine. If I turn down the pressure adjustment, I can get the contactor to turn off the motor before it stalls, but that's only 90-95 psi or so. If I adjust it higher, the motor is unable to turn the compressor if the pressure is more than 95-100psi. It's definitely the motor stalling, not the pressure switch opening. Thanks! |
#10
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
(GregS) wrote:
In article , (GregS) wrote: Check the line voltage while opperating at the motor. I can do that stall with a long extension cord. greg Is it oiless ?If so, check the bearing. greg Line voltage is OK, about 123 volts. It drops to around 121 volts when the motor stalls. Voltage drop across the pressure switch is minimal (less than a volt.) I'm not using an extension cord. The compressor is oil filled, and has oil in it (although it is rather old oil, come to think of it.) But, I can easily turn the compressor over by hand and it feels like it's moving freely, with no excess friction or binding. Thanks! |
#11
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Meat Plow wrote:
Compressor binding up. I can turn it easily by hand, so it doesn't appear to be binding. However, I don't have an easy way to check it when it's at full load. Any suggestions? Thanks! |
#12
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Bennett Price wrote:
Thanks! Do you know for sure that your gauge is correct? Maybe the compressor and pressure switch are fine. Well, it's been working for a long time, but over the past few months has been exhibiting the stalling issue. I guess the guage could be wrong, but I kind of know what 120psi "feels like" and it's not getting up to what it used to, either by the guage or by feel. |
#13
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#14
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Meat Plow wrote:
Current draw. 1/3 horse shouldn't draw more than 7 amps at 120 volts or 3.5 amps at 240 volts. Nameplace current rating is 6.0 amps (I'm running on 120 volts.) I measured about 5 amps at startup (0 psi) rising to close to 6 when it stalls. When it stops turning, the current actually drops back closer to 5 amps, then increases as the motor starts turning again. The motor is also hot to the touch after pumping all the way up. I can hold my hand on it for maybe 6 or 8 seconds. I don't know if that's different from how it used to be, though. Thanks! |
#15
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#16
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Assuming it's a 120V/240V motor connected for 120, can you check to
see if both run windings are actually connected? Perhaps a nut is working loose on the terminal plate inside the motor. Alan |
#17
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Meat Plow wrote:
Can you disconnect the motor from the pump and run just the motor to measure its no load amps? And to see if it heats up with no load? No load, it's drawing about 1.5 amps. It gets warm, but not as hot as it was under load. |
#18
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Alan Douglas wrote:
Assuming it's a 120V/240V motor connected for 120, can you check to see if both run windings are actually connected? Perhaps a nut is working loose on the terminal plate inside the motor. Hmm, you might have something, there! This motor is probably 15+ years old, and has never had anything done to it. Could corrosion and/or loose connections account for the lack of power? I can certainly try cleaning and tightening anything I can get to. Thanks! |
#19
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:13:01 GMT, Sparks Fergusson wrote:
Alan Douglas wrote: Assuming it's a 120V/240V motor connected for 120, can you check to see if both run windings are actually connected? Perhaps a nut is working loose on the terminal plate inside the motor. Hmm, you might have something, there! This motor is probably 15+ years old, and has never had anything done to it. Could corrosion and/or loose connections account for the lack of power? I can certainly try cleaning and tightening anything I can get to. Thanks! check the brushes and commutator. |
#20
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Hi!
You should check the pressure switch contacts to be sure they aren't burned. If they look OK, check the wiring leading to the compressor. Perhaps something is wrong there. (Be sure you shut the power off FIRST or you could have a shocking experience.) Failing all of that, I'd check to see if the motor uses a run capacitor. If it does, the capacitor is probably bad. William |
#21
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Meat Plow wrote:
What kind of motor is this? I didn't see you mention that. A 1/3 horse induction motor should not draw 1.5 amps with no load. It's some sort of GE induction motor. I have the model number, but I can't find anything about it on the GE website or Google. What sort of problems would high no-load amp draw suggest? |
#22
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
"William R. Walsh"
m wrote: Hi! You should check the pressure switch contacts to be sure they aren't burned. If they look OK, check the wiring leading to the compressor. Perhaps something is wrong there. (Be sure you shut the power off FIRST or you could have a shocking experience.) Pressure switch contacts look OK, and there's minimal voltage drop across under load. Wiring looks OK, too. Failing all of that, I'd check to see if the motor uses a run capacitor. If it does, the capacitor is probably bad. There is a capacitor, but I'm not sure exactly what it does. I don't have a wiring diagram and can't find any info on the Manufacturer's website (GE.) I'll try to check the capacitor as best I can. Could a capacitor issue cause the motor to start fine, but not have enough power when running? |
#23
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Sparks Fergusson wrote:
Meat Plow wrote: What kind of motor is this? I didn't see you mention that. A 1/3 horse induction motor should not draw 1.5 amps with no load. It's some sort of GE induction motor. I have the model number, but I can't find anything about it on the GE website or Google. What sort of problems would high no-load amp draw suggest? Bad bearings.. and if it's a single phase motor.. check the starter cap, if it has one. most likely not much good any more.. Also, you may have a centrifugal switch in the motor that isn't closing its contacts. Or, you could have an open winding!.. |
#24
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Hi!
Pressure switch contacts look OK, and there's minimal voltage drop across under load. Wiring looks OK, too. Good to know. It never hurts to rule out anything particularly obvious. It also would not hurt to check the wiring connections in the motor--are they rusty, burned, loose or just bad? If the motor has a built in circuit breaker, is it good? (A bad one could have burned contacts or start to open up just enough when the load increases.) Could a capacitor issue cause the motor to start fine, but not have enough power when running? If it's a "run" capacitor, yes. Starting is the hardest time for a motor, and some of the air compressor motors I've seen have a dedicated start winding (and cap) to give them a little more "kick" to get going. That winding won't stand continuous operation, so it's taken out of circuit by a centrifugal switch when the motor reaches a certain speed. From that point the motor runs on a different set of windings. Since it sounds like the motor runs fine up to a point where the load increases, my money would be on a run capacitor or wiring/current delivery issue. The run capacitor would serve to give the motor a little more kick when the load increases against it. Capacitors for electric motors are usually pretty cheap. I had a furnace fan motor that would not start reliably and paid $7 and change for a new one. It made all the difference in the world. They're certainly cheaper than replacing a burned out motor. William |
#25
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Assuming it's a 120V/240V motor connected for 120, can you check to
see if both run windings are actually connected? Perhaps a nut is working loose on the terminal plate inside the motor. Hmm, you might have something, there! This motor is probably 15+ years old, and has never had anything done to it. Could corrosion and/or loose connections account for the lack of power? I can certainly try cleaning and tightening anything I can get to. None of the other suggestions I've read, fit the symptoms. First would be low voltage to the motor under load, but you've already checked that. The starting capacitor is out of the circuit when the motor is up to speed. There's nothing left in circuit but the two run windings, wired in parallel. Alan |
#26
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 09:09:57 -0500, Alan Douglas
wrote: Assuming it's a 120V/240V motor connected for 120, can you check to see if both run windings are actually connected? Perhaps a nut is working loose on the terminal plate inside the motor. Hmm, you might have something, there! This motor is probably 15+ years old, and has never had anything done to it. Could corrosion and/or loose connections account for the lack of power? I can certainly try cleaning and tightening anything I can get to. None of the other suggestions I've read, fit the symptoms. First would be low voltage to the motor under load, but you've already checked that. The starting capacitor is out of the circuit when the motor is up to speed. There's nothing left in circuit but the two run windings, wired in parallel. Alan And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... |
#27
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a
wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... Hmmm, yes, I think that wasn't in the original post so I missed it. That would account for gradual deterioration too. Alan |
#28
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Mar 5, 5:44*pm, (Sparks Fergusson) wrote:
Meat Plow wrote: What kind of motor is this? I didn't see you mention that. A 1/3 horse induction motor should not draw 1.5 amps with no load. It's some sort of GE induction motor. I have the model number, but I can't find anything about it on the GE website or Google. What sort of problems would high no-load amp draw suggest? Motors don't generally fade away; they usually burn up. I don't see how a motor would become weaker, especially an induction motor. There are no parts to wear out other than the stator winding, which doesn't fail gracefully. If it fails there will be an unmistakable stinky cloud of white smoke. You probably have a thermal overload on the motor, and that's what trips when the motor appears to stall. Based on what I have read here, this is what I would check first. 1. Check the thermal overload. Remove it from the circuit, and find a way to load it up with a known current until it trips. It should trip after some time at 1.15 times the nameplate current. It generally takes a long time, like several minutes, at that current. This will be around 2x the motor FLA. If the overload trips before you reach 1.15x, then the overload is bad. I hope this helps. 2. |
#29
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Mar 4, 11:35*am, (Sparks Fergusson) wrote:
Bennett Price wrote: Thanks! Do you know for sure that your gauge is correct? *Maybe the compressor and pressure switch are fine. Well, it's been working for a long time, but over the past few months has been exhibiting the stalling issue. I guess the guage could be wrong, but I kind of know what 120psi "feels like" and it's not getting up to what it used to, either by the guage or by feel. I'd verify the gauge anyway. |
#30
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Alan Douglas wrote:
And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... Hmmm, yes, I think that wasn't in the original post so I missed it. That would account for gradual deterioration too. The unloader is functioning properly, as far as I can tell. It's a combination check valve/unloader. So, when the check valve is open, it allows the high pressure air into the tank. When the check valve closes, it vents the pump side to atmosphere. So, then the motor stalls, the check valve closes and the unloader part releases the pressure. When the presssure falls sufficiently, the motor restarts and the cycle continues. |
#31
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Andy wrote:
1. Check the thermal overload. Remove it from the circuit, and find a way to load it up with a known current until it trips. It should trip after some time at 1.15 times the nameplate current. It generally takes a long time, like several minutes, at that current. This will be around 2x the motor FLA. If the overload trips before you reach 1.15x, then the overload is bad. I'll try to check it, but the thermal overloads I've dealt with in the past usually don't reclose quickly. In this case, the motor stalls, the unloader releases, and the motor restarts inside of about 5 seconds...and then the cycle repeats. But, it's looking likely that I need to take the motor apart and inspect the innards (or take it to a motor shop.) So, I'll certainly check the overload(s). |
#32
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
Sparks Fergusson wrote: Alan Douglas wrote: And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... Hmmm, yes, I think that wasn't in the original post so I missed it. That would account for gradual deterioration too. The unloader is functioning properly, as far as I can tell. It's a combination check valve/unloader. So, when the check valve is open, it allows the high pressure air into the tank. When the check valve closes, it vents the pump side to atmosphere. So, then the motor stalls, the check valve closes and the unloader part releases the pressure. When the presssure falls sufficiently, the motor restarts and the cycle continues. It shouldn't. The unloader is supposed to open when the motor first starts, to let it come up to speed. Since the motor is stalling, you either have a bad pressure sensor, or the run capacitor has lost some or most of its capacitance. The pressure sensors deteriorate with age, and the calibration goes to hell. The capacitors have to pass a lot of current, and aren't made to last forever. They are AC electrolytics to keep the size and cost within a range you can afford to build and sell a product. A film capacitor would be quite large, and can caost more then a new compressor. Some compressors have two capacitors. One in the start circuit, and the other in series with one of the run windings to provide the required phase shift. -- Greed is the root of all eBay. |
#33
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
It shouldn't. The unloader is supposed to open when the motor first starts, to let it come up to speed. An electric unloader, yes. This is a mechanical one, integrated with the check valve. It is working as designed. Since the motor is stalling, you either have a bad pressure sensor, or the run capacitor has lost some or most of its capacitance. The pressure sensors deteriorate with age, and the calibration goes to hell. The pressure switch is OK. It is not what is stopping the motor. The contactor never opens and the motor is receiving full voltage through the stall cycles. The capacitor could certainly be the issue, though. The capacitors have to pass a lot of current, and aren't made to last forever. They are AC electrolytics to keep the size and cost within a range you can afford to build and sell a product. A film capacitor would be quite large, and can caost more then a new compressor. Indeed. This motor is probably 15-20 years old, so I can easily believe the capacitor may be at fault. I'll have to disassemble the motor and check it as soon as I get a chance. Some compressors have two capacitors. One in the start circuit, and the other in series with one of the run windings to provide the required phase shift. I only see one capacitor, so I'm assuming it's in the starting circuit. I don't have a wiring diagram, and GE has no information on it's website for this motor. Thanks! |
#34
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:00:01 -0500, Alan Douglas
wrote: And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... Hmmm, yes, I think that wasn't in the original post so I missed it. That would account for gradual deterioration too. Alan From the original post that started this thread: ... underpowered - it pumps up to about 95 psi ok, but then the motor stalls. The unloader bleeds the pressure off, the motor restarts, runs for a couple of seconds, and then stops again...repeat...repeat..." |
#35
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#36
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:32:31 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Sparks Fergusson wrote: Alan Douglas wrote: And all those replies ignore the fact the unloader is operating (at a wrong, low pressure) which certainly doesn't point an evil finger at the motor at all... Hmmm, yes, I think that wasn't in the original post so I missed it. That would account for gradual deterioration too. The unloader is functioning properly, as far as I can tell. It's a combination check valve/unloader. So, when the check valve is open, it allows the high pressure air into the tank. When the check valve closes, it vents the pump side to atmosphere. So, then the motor stalls, the check valve closes and the unloader part releases the pressure. When the presssure falls sufficiently, the motor restarts and the cycle continues. It shouldn't. The unloader is supposed to open when the motor first starts, Typical small compressors the unloader opens when the pressure switch activates and shuts off the compressor. This releases all pressure on the compressor head, allowing the motor to start when pressure drops down to the cutin PSI. to let it come up to speed. Since the motor is stalling, you either have a bad pressure sensor, or the run capacitor has lost some or most of its capacitance. The pressure sensors deteriorate with age, and the calibration goes to hell. IHMO it has not been said that the motor is stalling! A stalled motor (called locked rotor) will cause input current to swing sky-high, usually tripping the breaker, making a hell of a noise, and is very obvious. The capacitors have to pass a lot of current, and aren't made to last forever. They are AC electrolytics to keep the size and cost within a range you can afford to build and sell a product. A film capacitor would be quite large, and can caost more then a new compressor. Some compressors have two capacitors. One in the start circuit, and the other in series with one of the run windings to provide the required phase shift. |
#37
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
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#38
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
PeterD wrote:
So the original post is incorrect then? WHich is right, this or the other one? Is motor current high when the motor stalls? I measured about 5 amps at startup (0 psi) rising to close to 6 when it stalls. When it stops turning, the current actually drops back closer to 5 amps, then increases as the motor starts turning again. |
#39
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
PeterD wrote:
Typical small compressors the unloader opens when the pressure switch activates and shuts off the compressor. This releases all pressure on the compressor head, allowing the motor to start when pressure drops down to the cutin PSI. On this compressor, the check valve/unloader is completely separate from the pressure switch. The unloader is similar to this one: http://www.amazon.com/Control-Device...nloader-Check/ IHMO it has not been said that the motor is stalling! A stalled motor (called locked rotor) will cause input current to swing sky-high, usually tripping the breaker, making a hell of a noise, and is very obvious. The voltage to the motor is never interrupted during the stop/start cycle. Above a certain psi (about 95), the motor starts bogging down and eventually stops. This occurs even if I bypass the pressure switch and attach the cord directly to the motor leads. Then, after the unloader vents the pressure, the motor will restart. Input current does not swing sky-high, though, nor does the breaker trip, nor is there a hell of a noise. It definitely comes to a dead stop, though. |
#40
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Air Compressor Problem - Motor Stalls
PeterD wrote:
From the original post that started this thread: ... underpowered - it pumps up to about 95 psi ok, but then the motor stalls. The unloader bleeds the pressure off, the motor restarts, runs for a couple of seconds, and then stops again...repeat...repeat..." Yes, those're the symptoms. |
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