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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. |
#2
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
Michael wrote in message
... Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. You should be monitoring a PLL o/p and inferring the Xtal f -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ |
#3
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:23:28 -0400, Michael
wrote: Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? A *good* quality counter, used properly, will eliminate this problem. Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. |
#4
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
Michael wrote:
Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. Look for a buffered output from the xtal oscillator, rather than metering right off the xtal. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
#5
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
"N_Cook" wrote in -
september.org: Michael wrote in message ... Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? pick off the signal with a scope(10Meg input Z) and feed CH1 out to the counter.or you could trigger the scope on an ext.reference signal like WWV and adjust the scope display for lowest drift. Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. You should be monitoring a PLL o/p and inferring the Xtal f -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#6
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
PeterD wrote in
news On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:23:28 -0400, Michael wrote: Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? A *good* quality counter, used properly, will eliminate this problem. Nonsense;the counter probably has a low input Z and high input C,and together with the hookup lead/probe capacitance makes too much of a load. Using a scope with a 10X probe or FET probe may decrease the loading,if you have a CH.1 output to pass to the counter. Or perhaps a pickup loop might give a smaller load on the osc. Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#7
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
Jim Yanik wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:23:28 -0400, Michael wrote: Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? snip Using a scope with a 10X probe or FET probe may decrease the loading,if you have a CH.1 output to pass to the counter. Or perhaps a pickup loop might give a smaller load on the osc. When a pickup coil doesn't provide enough signal, I use a broadband CATV distribution amp (~1MHz - ~900MHz) which has surprisingly flat response and can also be useful as a scope preamp. These are often found cheaply at hamfests, local e-waste dumps, or from cable TV plants (shmoozing required). Use with a pickup coil or tank circuit on the input. Michael |
#8
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:23:28 -0400, Michael
wrote: Hi, I regularly repair and restore vintage CB and ham radios. Older CB radios often have had their crystals drift off frequency usually to a lower frequency. When I use my frequency counter to align the crystal back to it's intended frequency via a trimmer capacitor the frequency changes as soon as I connect the counter. In other words what good does it do to adjust the PLL reference oscillator to 10.240 MHz if the frequency changes slightly when I disconnect the frequency counter? Is there a way to minimize or eliminate the oscillator frequency change when the counter is connected? My frequency counter is a Protek B-818. Use a buffer amplifier or analog PLL to stop the loading of the oscillator. |
#9
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
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#10
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
bz wrote: r. |
#11
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
wrote in message ... bz wrote: r. Or hook the transmitter to a well shielded dummy load, use a 't' connector to hook up your counter (thru a proper attenuation network) and adjust the xtal frequency while keying the transmitter. That may not tell you whether the 10.240 MHz oscillator is on frequency. Many CB's have a separate 10.695 MHz crystal oscillator that mixes with the signal from the VCO to generate the transmit frequency. If the 10.695 MHz oscillator is off freqency you will be knocking the 10.240 MHz oscillator off frequency to compensate. On the receive side the 10.240 MHz signal often mixes with the common first IF frequency of 10.695 Mhz to make the second IF frequency of 455 kHz. 10.695 kHz - 10.240 kHz = 455 kHz Also the 10.240 MHz frequency is often doubled and mixed with the VCO output frequency to mix down to a frequency low enough for the pll chip to process in the phase detector. In a nut shell you may be fixing the transmit frequency only to knock off the second IF frequency. In a nutshell if the 10.240 MHz oscillator is knocked off to compensate for an off frequency 10.695 MHz oscillator it will throw the receive IF frequency off. Very nice description. I had forgotten some of the convoluted up and down-mixing schemes used by CBs to arrive at transmit and receive frequencies, and frequencies low enough to be handled by some of the early PLL chips. Reams of paper calculating crystal frequencies to produce different bands, and inter-channel offsets. Happy days. And SSB generation. Best not even go there ... ! Arfa |
#12
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Frequency of crystal ocillator changes when counter attached,
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