Firstly are they synomynous?
I have a data book , printed in 1933
Westinghouse "the all-metal way" metal rectifiers ,
how to build High Tension battery eliminators
and battery chargers.
A 300V , 60mA Westinghouse one in 1933 was about 3x3x5 inches,
no mention of Selenium, trade secret then ?.

The pic
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/Se_R.jpg
Shows on the right a disassemled one from a 1959 Dansette, one of
the two , 8 layer blocks is shown, removed, on end near the ruler (0.1 inch)
Single element rectifier
Siemens lazy S logo
Made in Germany
E 250c50
Kc 0.6e 11/16
1979 Siemens databook and E250C50 were still listed,
rating 200V, 20mA

The book page is from 1967 catalogue.

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Jan 9, 8:58*am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?


Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

"TwoMuttHeads" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?


Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.


Yes. I was going to say exactly the same thing. I think that the original
"metal" rectifier, was a copper oxide device, rather than selenium. It's
been a long time ago now, but I seem to remember back in my yoof when I was
an apprentice, that we talked of metal rectifiers and selenium rectifiers as
different entities.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"TwoMuttHeads" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?


Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.


Yes. I was going to say exactly the same thing. I think that the original
"metal" rectifier, was a copper oxide device, rather than selenium. It's
been a long time ago now, but I seem to remember back in my yoof when I
was
an apprentice, that we talked of metal rectifiers and selenium rectifiers
as
different entities.

Arfa




I'm trying to find if any sort of (presumably) non-thermionic rectifier
could fit in a space 95x70x12 mm in the 1940s.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:58:28 -0000, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Firstly are they synomynous?
I have a data book , printed in 1933
Westinghouse "the all-metal way" metal rectifiers ,

Search for US patents containing the terms "metal rectifier" and which
are assigned to Westinghouse:
http://www.google.com/patents?as_q=&...maxy_ap=20 09
http://preview.tinyurl.com/9aqglu

For example, US patent 2,802,158 (Aug 6, 1957) refers to "metal
rectifier elements which may be selenium rectifiers":
http://www.google.com/patents/pdf/ME...xvHOk3IZmdgL0g
http://preview.tinyurl.com/9qtwc4

This suggests that selenium rectifiers were just one type of metal
rectifier.

Other patents refer more generally to "metal-oxide rectifiers":
http://www.google.com/patents/pdf/ME...eyz3OVvVUaJjTg
http://preview.tinyurl.com/8yphxt

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

TwoMuttHeads wrote:

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

The "whistle" rectifier in Lionel train transformers of the 1950s were
copper oxide.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"TwoMuttHeads" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?


Would the English military have had access to these
size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.


Yes. I was going to say exactly the same thing. I think
that the original
"metal" rectifier, was a copper oxide device, rather than
selenium. It's
been a long time ago now, but I seem to remember back in
my yoof when I
was
an apprentice, that we talked of metal rectifiers and
selenium rectifiers
as
different entities.

Arfa




I'm trying to find if any sort of (presumably)
non-thermionic rectifier
could fit in a space 95x70x12 mm in the 1940s.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals
list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Are you trying to figure out what was in there
originally or just want something to fit? I suspect the
former since a silicon rectifier, probably with series
dropping resistor would work to replace a metal-oxide
rectifier.
It seems to me that selenium stack rectifiers were not
used before about 1945. Copper oxide rectifers were used in
"battery eliminators" and were the standard rectifiers in AC
meters. I don't think either is made any more but either can
be replaced with silicon rectifiers.


--

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL

"Carter" wrote in message
...

On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

TwoMuttHeads wrote:

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

The "whistle" rectifier in Lionel train transformers of the 1950s were
copper oxide.

I don't think either is made any more but either can
be replaced with silicon rectifiers.


--

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL



I believe Selenium is still used in the power industry.

http://www.cehco.com/?page_id=233

Paul P.

Richard Knoppow wrote in message
...

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"TwoMuttHeads" wrote in message

...
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?


Would the English military have had access to these
size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

Copper oxide was used for quite a while.


Yes. I was going to say exactly the same thing. I think
that the original
"metal" rectifier, was a copper oxide device, rather than
selenium. It's
been a long time ago now, but I seem to remember back in
my yoof when I
was
an apprentice, that we talked of metal rectifiers and
selenium rectifiers
as
different entities.

Arfa




I'm trying to find if any sort of (presumably)
non-thermionic rectifier
could fit in a space 95x70x12 mm in the 1940s.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals
list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Are you trying to figure out what was in there
originally or just want something to fit? I suspect the
former since a silicon rectifier, probably with series
dropping resistor would work to replace a metal-oxide
rectifier.
It seems to me that selenium stack rectifiers were not
used before about 1945. Copper oxide rectifers were used in
"battery eliminators" and were the standard rectifiers in AC
meters. I don't think either is made any more but either can
be replaced with silicon rectifiers.


--

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL




I am trying to recusitate a tiny wartime 'scope that someone in the late
60s/70s must have changed to a couple of Si diodes to keep working
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:gra.../miniscope.htm
but an "enigma" hinges on whether 2 rectifiers could be squashed into
that space either side of the pentode in the 1940s.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Another term you may hear is "dry rectifier". This can refer to either
a copper oxide or selenium rectifier, but more often to copper oxide
since electrolytic rectifiers (very wet) were long gone by the time
seleniums came around.

N_Cook wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?
I have a data book , printed in 1933
Westinghouse "the all-metal way" metal rectifiers ,
how to build High Tension battery eliminators
and battery chargers.
A 300V , 60mA Westinghouse one in 1933 was about 3x3x5 inches,
no mention of Selenium, trade secret then ?.

The pic
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/Se_R.jpg
Shows on the right a disassemled one from a 1959 Dansette, one of
the two , 8 layer blocks is shown, removed, on end near the ruler (0.1 inch)
Single element rectifier
Siemens lazy S logo
Made in Germany
E 250c50
Kc 0.6e 11/16
1979 Siemens databook and E250C50 were still listed,
rating 200V, 20mA

The book page is from 1967 catalogue.

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




--
Jim Mueller

To get my real email address, replace wrongname with dadoheadman.
Then replace nospam with fastmail. Lastly, replace com with us.

Copper oxide was used for years in movie theaters as rectifiers for
the exciter lamp power supplies in the soundheads.

Ken Layton wrote in message
...
Copper oxide was used for years in movie theaters as rectifiers for
the exciter lamp power supplies in the soundheads.



The second to last page of the 1933 Westinghouse book refers to 2 units
pictured being used in ""talkie" installations" , but nowhere in the book is
there reference to either CuO or Se, just metal rectifiers.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:58:28 -0000, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Firstly are they synomynous?
I have a data book , printed in 1933
Westinghouse "the all-metal way" metal rectifiers ,
how to build High Tension battery eliminators
and battery chargers.
A 300V , 60mA Westinghouse one in 1933 was about 3x3x5 inches,
no mention of Selenium, trade secret then ?.

FWIW, here are some patents of around that time:

SOLID RECTIFYING ELEMENT
US Pat. 2030443 - Filed Jul 19, 1934
In order to assure a perfect operation of a selenium rectifier ...

RAILWAY TKACK CIRCUIT APPARATUS
US Pat. 2015577 - Filed Nov 9, 1934 - The Union Switch a Signal
Company
As is well known, the copper oxide rectifier (as 05 well as certain
other rectifiers of this type, such as the selenium rectifier) ...

ELECTRICAL DEVICE
US Pat. 2124306 - Filed Jul 17, 1935 - International Standard Electric
Corporation
A method of manufacturing a selenium rectifier having upper and lower
metallic members which comprises applying selenium to the- lower
member, ...

METHOD OF PRODUCING SELENIUM
US Pat. 2121603 - Filed Apr 14, 1937 -
The above described treatment of selenium rectifier plates with
reducing materials may be applied if necessary to plates of the type
in which the selenium ...

The pic
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/Se_R.jpg
Shows on the right a disassemled one from a 1959 Dansette, one of
the two , 8 layer blocks is shown, removed, on end near the ruler (0.1 inch)
Single element rectifier
Siemens lazy S logo
Made in Germany
E 250c50
Kc 0.6e 11/16
1979 Siemens databook and E250C50 were still listed,
rating 200V, 20mA

The book page is from 1967 catalogue.

Here is a 1931 Siemens patent:

APPARATUS FOB CONTROLLING ELEC
US Pat. 1929216 - Filed Apr 1, 1931 - Siemens a Habke
.... there occurs a change in the resistance of the individual valves,
which may be dry rectifier valves, such as copper oxide or selenium
valves, ...

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Franc Zabkar wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:58:28 -0000, "N_Cook" put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Firstly are they synomynous?
I have a data book , printed in 1933
Westinghouse "the all-metal way" metal rectifiers ,
how to build High Tension battery eliminators
and battery chargers.
A 300V , 60mA Westinghouse one in 1933 was about 3x3x5 inches,
no mention of Selenium, trade secret then ?.

FWIW, here are some patents of around that time:

SOLID RECTIFYING ELEMENT
US Pat. 2030443 - Filed Jul 19, 1934
In order to assure a perfect operation of a selenium rectifier ...

RAILWAY TKACK CIRCUIT APPARATUS
US Pat. 2015577 - Filed Nov 9, 1934 - The Union Switch a Signal
Company
As is well known, the copper oxide rectifier (as 05 well as certain
other rectifiers of this type, such as the selenium rectifier) ...

ELECTRICAL DEVICE
US Pat. 2124306 - Filed Jul 17, 1935 - International Standard Electric
Corporation
A method of manufacturing a selenium rectifier having upper and lower
metallic members which comprises applying selenium to the- lower
member, ...

METHOD OF PRODUCING SELENIUM
US Pat. 2121603 - Filed Apr 14, 1937 -
The above described treatment of selenium rectifier plates with
reducing materials may be applied if necessary to plates of the type
in which the selenium ...

The pic
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/Se_R.jpg
Shows on the right a disassemled one from a 1959 Dansette, one of
the two , 8 layer blocks is shown, removed, on end near the ruler (0.1
inch)
Single element rectifier
Siemens lazy S logo
Made in Germany
E 250c50
Kc 0.6e 11/16
1979 Siemens databook and E250C50 were still listed,
rating 200V, 20mA

The book page is from 1967 catalogue.

Here is a 1931 Siemens patent:

APPARATUS FOB CONTROLLING ELEC
US Pat. 1929216 - Filed Apr 1, 1931 - Siemens a Habke
... there occurs a change in the resistance of the individual valves,
which may be dry rectifier valves, such as copper oxide or selenium
valves, ...

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.


What sort of UK names of components catalogues that included non-valve parts
of the 1940s , was Radio Spares going then ?
Perhaps I should try and find a 1940s Westinghouse cat.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

2 Selenium rectifier trade names of the right sort of specs, of the early
1950s, were
Westinghouse Westalite
and
STC SenTerCel
for which the earliest reference I've found is 1951


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

according to ebay
http://i16.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/88/e0/2dc0_2.JPG
is a
WAR DEPT!! WESTALITE RECTIFIER,NORTON, TRIUMPH, MATCHLESS etc... Straight
from the War Department.
Genuine NOS Military parts removed from 'jungle paper'
Rectifier Made in England By Westinghouse Brake & Signal Co Ltd. Pat 620102
& others. Cat No. 2L 985.
Positive Case. 98mm x 98mm x 12mm.

When did "war dept" cease ?
At least another patent number to research


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

http://www.wikipatents.com/gb/0620102.html
for UK patent 620102, 1947, is about rectifier construction/gaskets but
refers to "well known selenium type"


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Jan 9, 12:23*pm, Carter wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked
TwoMuttHeads wrote:
Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

The "whistle" rectifier in Lionel train transformers of the 1950s were
copper oxide.

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse voltage
of a 12volt charger.
Dwight

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:08:38 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

2 Selenium rectifier trade names of the right sort of specs, of the early
1950s, were
Westinghouse Westalite
and
STC SenTerCel
for which the earliest reference I've found is 1951


Selenium rectifiers date from the mid to late 20's I believe.

Kevin

In article
,
" in
sci.electronics.repair wrote:

On Jan 9, 12:23Â*pm, Carter wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked
TwoMuttHeads wrote:
Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

The "whistle" rectifier in Lionel train transformers of the 1950s were
copper oxide.

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse voltage
of a 12volt charger.


Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way off at 400 Hz.

Regards,

David P.

On Jan 16, 12:23 pm, David Powell wrote:
In article
,
" in



sci.electronics.repair wrote:
On Jan 9, 12:23 pm, Carter wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:58 am, "N_Cook" wrote:
Firstly are they synomynous?

Would the English military have had access to these size
and sort of ratings, of the later rectifiers, in 1940s,
they could have been heatsinked
TwoMuttHeads wrote:
Copper oxide was used for quite a while.

The "whistle" rectifier in Lionel train transformers of the 1950s were
copper oxide.

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse voltage
of a 12volt charger.

Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way off at 400 Hz.

Regards,

David P.

Yep!
Dwight

In article ,
David Powell wrote:

In article
,
" in

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse voltage
of a 12volt charger.

Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way off at 400 Hz.

I thought the rectifiers used in the old VU meters, as well as various
telephony applications, were Copper Oxide? If Copper Oxide doesn't work
in audio frequency applications what sort of rectifier stacks were used
in these audio applications?

--
Regards,

John Byrns

Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

In article
,
John Byrns in sci.electronics.repair wrote:

In article ,
David Powell wrote:

In article
,
" in

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse voltage
of a 12volt charger.

Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way off at 400 Hz.

I thought the rectifiers used in the old VU meters, as well as various
telephony applications, were Copper Oxide? If Copper Oxide doesn't work
in audio frequency applications what sort of rectifier stacks were used
in these audio applications?


Dunno about old VU meters, but my guess is that they're rather
different to the meters and battery chargers that were the topic, in
that there will be amplification in the system. Given that, whatever
the response curve of the widget is, it can be linearized as necessary
with appropriate filters. My comment described a characteristic of
the nekkid rectifier.

It's not that they don't work at audio, just that they will only be
accurate over a very restricted frequency range. Not that I've a high
opinion on VU meters as used in typical consumer electronics, unlikely
to even equal the accuracy of my car's fuel tank contents gauge.
Might as well wire a filament lamp across the speakers and measure
with a light meter.

Regards,

David P.

"David Powell" wrote in message
news
In article
,
John Byrns in
sci.electronics.repair wrote:

In article ,
David Powell wrote:

In article
,
" in

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very
low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse
voltage
of a 12volt charger.

Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for
a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way
off at 400 Hz.

I thought the rectifiers used in the old VU meters, as
well as various
telephony applications, were Copper Oxide? If Copper
Oxide doesn't work
in audio frequency applications what sort of rectifier
stacks were used
in these audio applications?

Big plates like in battery chargers = big capacitance = poor
audio response.
Very small plates like in meters = small capacitance = good
audio response.

David

In article ,
"David" wrote:

"David Powell" wrote in message
news
In article
,
John Byrns in
sci.electronics.repair wrote:

In article ,
David Powell wrote:

In article
,
" in

Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very
low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse
voltage
of a 12volt charger.

Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for
a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way
off at 400 Hz.

I thought the rectifiers used in the old VU meters, as
well as various
telephony applications, were Copper Oxide? If Copper
Oxide doesn't work
in audio frequency applications what sort of rectifier
stacks were used
in these audio applications?

Big plates like in battery chargers = big capacitance = poor
audio response.
Very small plates like in meters = small capacitance = good
audio response.

I'll buy that.

--
Regards,

John Byrns

Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

John Byrns wrote:
In article ,
"David" wrote:

"David Powell" wrote in message
news
In article
,
John Byrns in
sci.electronics.repair wrote:

In article ,
David Powell wrote:

In article
,
" in
Hi
Copper Oxide have the advantage for things like meters
and battery charges because they have a low forward
voltage drop. The primary problem is that it has a very
low
reverse voltage. Even in charger applications, it took
a stack of many junctions to hold off the reverse
voltage
of a 12volt charger.
Their downside for meter use is low bandwidth. Fine for
a 50 / 60 Hz
electrician's testmeter, useless for audio. Often way
off at 400 Hz.
I thought the rectifiers used in the old VU meters, as
well as various
telephony applications, were Copper Oxide? If Copper
Oxide doesn't work
in audio frequency applications what sort of rectifier
stacks were used
in these audio applications?
Big plates like in battery chargers = big capacitance = poor
audio response.
Very small plates like in meters = small capacitance = good
audio response.

I'll buy that.

The copper oxide meter rectifiers I have seen are about 3/16" in
diameter. The one in the battery charger I have is about 2" X 4".

--
Jim Mueller

To get my real email address, replace wrongname with dadoheadman.
Then replace nospam with fastmail. Lastly, replace com with us.