Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:47:06 -0800, SMS wrote:

They said it was "usb" but they never said it was "proprietary USB".
Does anyone know WHY they didn't say that additional word?


For the same reason that reviews of cell phones don't mention the type
of charging connector. The review sites don't understand that it's a
feature of concern to some buyers. Actually when I buy a cell phone
these days, I won't buy one that uses a proprietary power connector, but
you can't find that information out easily without looking at the phone.


You're so right!

I never buy a cell phone without finding out first if it's mini-usb or not.
Same with headphones and gps navigation units.

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. But I found a
solution that works so that a single charger charges all my electronics.

This happened with my Blackberry 8700 two years ago and again with my new
Blackberry 9000 this year.

The solution was to buy from a large department store a 550 ma Motorola
mini-usb charger and then to turn around a day later and return it. But, in
the box I put the brand-new 750ma Blackberry mini-USB charger instead of
the Motorola charger.

I would hope EVERYONE would do this. When Motorola gets thousands of
Blackberry or Garmin mini-usb chargers, they'll figure out their error.

Luckily, for the past two years, I've had no problems using the Motorola
charger in all my portable electronics appliances so it's just the Motorola
phone (RAZR) that is the culprit.
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We have two Motorola phones in our family and I have a Blackberry. The
Blackberry can be recharge on most any standard mini USB cable from
most any of the standard mini USB chargers or car adaptors. This is
also including the Motorola charger and Motorola car adaptor.

The Motorola phone can only be recharged with the dedicated Motorola
charger. To use a generic charger with the Motorola phone it must be
specified for Motorola phones. This also applies to the car adaptors.

If I want to charge the Motorola phone on a PC, I have to have their
full program software installed. To recharge the Blackberry I can have
their simple stand alone driver installed on any PC. I don't need the
complete software package.

What they did with the Motorola product is that the charger's voltage
control circuits have to send to the phone an ID data packet to tell
the phone that it is allowed to be recharged with that device. The
phone will then allow itself to accept the charge current from the
charger. In simple words, the charger has to make the phone think it
is on a powered USB port and the necessary driver is active for the
phone.

Many dealers who sell these generic chargers are not aware of this
requirement for the Motorola phone. When buying a generic charger it
is important to try it in the store with your phone. You may come home
and find that the charger you bought will not work with your Motorola
phone.

Personally, I like the Motorola phone. I like the way it sounds and
the layout of the menus, and etc. I am very disappointed at the way
they designed the charging and accessory part of it.

Because of the driver and charging limitations with the Motorola
phones, I am considering to not buy new Motorola phones after these
have finished their life span. I will most likely buy Blackberries, or
another manufacture's phone to replace them. I found the Blackberry to
be very universal and less of a problem for flexibility.

With the Motorola phone I have to be careful that I have the dedicated
charger and car adaptor with me when I travel with it. I cannot share
the accessories with other manufacture phones that use the same
connectors and voltage specifications for recharging and operation.

Making a product very proprietary actually works against the
manufacture. Some manufactures think they are protecting their product
accessories. But, all they are doing is making the customer unhappy,
and he will not come back again. I won't!



Jerry G.



On Dec 26, 3:33*pm, Pat Cheney wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:47:06 -0800, SMS wrote:
They said it was "usb" but they never said it was "proprietary USB".
Does anyone know WHY they didn't say that additional word?


For the same reason that reviews of cell phones don't mention the type
of charging connector. The review sites don't understand that it's a
feature of concern to some buyers. Actually when I buy a cell phone
these days, I won't buy one that uses a proprietary power connector, but
you can't find that information out easily without looking at the phone..


You're so right!

I never buy a cell phone without finding out first if it's mini-usb or not.

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Default Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney put
finger to keyboard and composed:

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers.


The difference could be just one resistor:
http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml

- Franc Zabkar
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:59:39 -0800 (PST), "Jerry G."
wrote in
:

We have two Motorola phones in our family and I have a Blackberry. The
Blackberry can be recharge on most any standard mini USB cable from
most any of the standard mini USB chargers or car adaptors. This is
also including the Motorola charger and Motorola car adaptor.

The Motorola phone can only be recharged with the dedicated Motorola
charger. To use a generic charger with the Motorola phone it must be
specified for Motorola phones. This also applies to the car adaptors.

If I want to charge the Motorola phone on a PC, I have to have their
full program software installed. To recharge the Blackberry I can have
their simple stand alone driver installed on any PC. I don't need the
complete software package.

What they did with the Motorola product is that the charger's voltage
control circuits have to send to the phone an ID data packet to tell
the phone that it is allowed to be recharged with that device. ...


Not so. It's simply a matter of the number of pins in the connector,
and the right signals on those pins. My Motorola V3xx charges just fine
from my computer with nothing from Motorola installed.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:14:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney put
finger to keyboard and composed:

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers.


The difference could be just one resistor:
http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml


I also believe that some devices will look for the presence of pullup
or pull-down resistors on the Data+ and/or Data- signal pins. In this
way the device knows when it is connected to a USB host, in which case
it will limit its current draw to 500mA. Otherwise it thinks it is
connected to a fast charger, and then it draws whatever current it
wants.

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

I never buy a cell phone without finding out first if it's mini-usb or not.
Same with headphones and gps navigation units.

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. ...


This is actually just a matter of the wrong cable / connection.

The problem is that not all Standard-A to Mini-B USB cables are the same
-- there are both 5-connection cables and 4-connection cables, and only
proper 5-connector cables will work properly without a Motorola USB
driver. Standard USB has only 4 connections. Mini USB has 5
connections, the extra connection being the device ID pin.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Dec 26, 8:11*pm, John Navas wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

I never buy a cell phone without finding out first if it's mini-usb or not.
Same with headphones and gps navigation units.


One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.


I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. ...


This is actually just a matter of the wrong cable / connection.

The problem is that not all Standard-A to Mini-B USB cables are the same
-- there are both 5-connection cables and 4-connection cables, and only
proper 5-connector cables will work properly without a Motorola USB
driver. *Standard USB has only 4 connections. *Mini USB has 5
connections, the extra connection being the device ID pin.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John



But that does not solve the problem of the OP or the first reply.
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:56:05 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:14:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney put
finger to keyboard and composed:

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers.


The difference could be just one resistor:
http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml


I also believe that some devices will look for the presence of pullup
or pull-down resistors on the Data+ and/or Data- signal pins. In this
way the device knows when it is connected to a USB host, in which case
it will limit its current draw to 500mA. Otherwise it thinks it is
connected to a fast charger, and then it draws whatever current it
wants.


People, people, enough with the mystery and speculation -- this is part
of the USB standard! It's called ID, and is clearly defined. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_serial_bus#USB_cables

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:59:39 -0800 (PST), Jerry G. wrote:

If I want to charge the Motorola phone on a PC, I have to have their
full program software installed. To recharge the Blackberry I can have
their simple stand alone driver installed on any PC. I don't need the
complete software package.


Hi Jerry G.
Thank you! You are the voice of reason, experience, and knowledge!

You've solved a problem that caused me a problem in the past!

This explains why I couldn't charge my daughter's Motorola RAZR on a
vacation this summer. I thought it was the cable even though I had used the
cable on my Blackberry and it worked just fine. I threw away the mini-usb
cable thinking it was bad! Now I know it wasn't bad. It was just not the
Motorola mini-usb cable!

The referenced URL below also says why. Thank you for pointing this out!
http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml

Pat
PS: The solution is to buy a new Motorola cable, and return the brand new
Blackberry cable in its place.

RAZR V3 will not charge by simply supplying 5V through USB (it"s possible
to use a common USB cable for charging if you are using the Motorola
special PC driver software).
Motorola uses the pin between Pin #3 and #4 (Pin X) to sense what device is
attached to the mini-USB port. Shorting Pin #3 to #2 and #X causes the
phone to go into handsfree/carkit mode and the LCD backlight will ignore
timeout settings and stay on.
Shorting pin X to pin 2 and to pin 4 via R=200KOhm causes the phone to go
into charge mode.

MOTORIZR Z6tv - In Order to make your PC charge your phone through a usb
cable w/o installing any special drivers or softwa Short pins 2 and 3,
then put a 200K Ohm resistor between pins X and 4.

- The phone supplies ~2.14Vdc to pin X before anything is plugged
into it. It needs to be dropped 1V to approx 1.16Vdc. Putting a 200K Ohm
resistor between Pins X and 4 will bring that voltage down to around
1.16Vdc.

- The wall charger has pins 2 and 3 shorted together. Not sure if
it's a safe practice shorting the USB DATA lines together on your PC, so do
at your own risk. However, it does work on my terminal with out any ill
effects.
AC adapter
Pin Name Direction Description
1 +5 VDC -?- PC USB Pin 1 (+5 VDC).
2 USB Data -?- shorted to pin x in charger cable.
3 USB Data -?- not connected
X -?- Shorted to pin 2 + shorted to pin 4 via R=200KOhm in charge
cable. (R=165KOhm?)
4 GND -?- PC USB pin 4 (GND). Shorted to pin X via R=200KOhm in charge
cable. (R=165KOhm?)



Comment by Darrin
A standard Motorola USB charger puts ~1.4vdc onto the x pin of the mini USB
plug. A 200k resistor between pin 2 and 4 produces ~1.9vdc on the x pin.
This works for Motorola Q (which works from ~1.2vdc to ~1.9vdc), but not
for Razr V3m. I had to lower the resistor to 165k. This produces ~1.5vdc
and allows the charger to become authorized.

Comment by Andre
After many trial and error, the working pinout for my RAZR V3C was to short
2 and 3 THEN Short X and Gnd with a 200KOhm resistor. Work good on my
unbranded USB car charger and with a PC without any driver installed.

Here is a schematic :

1 _____________ +5V ____________
2 _______,
PHONE SIDE 3_______/
USB / Power Supply side
X_______/\/200Kohm /\__,__ GND ___
4___________________/


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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:11:39 -0800, John Navas wrote:

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. ...


This is actually just a matter of the wrong cable / connection.
The problem is that not all Standard-A to Mini-B USB cables are the same


Hi John,
While that may be the problem, the solution, for those of us with both
Blackberry and Motorola equipment, is to purchase Motorola cables and
return the new Blackberry equipment in its place.

Specifically the Blackberry comes with a 120/240-volt charger; you buy an
equivalent Motorola charger; and you return the brand new Blackberry
charger in its stead.

Likweise with the new Blackberry mini-USB cable and, if you bought the car
adapter, that too.

This works fine because the Blackberry equipment will work just fine with
the Motorola cables and chargers and adapters but the Motorola phone won't
work with the Blackberry cables and chargers and adapters.

This solves the problem instantly. At any time, I can grab any one of my
many Motorola chargers or cables or adapters and charge all my electronics
that use the mini-USB standard.

Thanks Jerry G. for solving this problem for us!
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:18:25 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:59:39 -0800 (PST), Jerry G. wrote:

If I want to charge the Motorola phone on a PC, I have to have their
full program software installed. To recharge the Blackberry I can have
their simple stand alone driver installed on any PC. I don't need the
complete software package.


Hi Jerry G.
Thank you! You are the voice of reason, experience, and knowledge!


Except he's not entirely correct. See my follow-up.
You've made the same mistake you made with the camera.

You've solved a problem that caused me a problem in the past!

This explains why I couldn't charge my daughter's Motorola RAZR on a
vacation this summer. I thought it was the cable even though I had used the
cable on my Blackberry and it worked just fine. I threw away the mini-usb
cable thinking it was bad! Now I know it wasn't bad. It was just not the
Motorola mini-usb cable!


No, it was just not a standard Mini-USB cable.
Many cables don't do the ID properly.

PS: The solution is to buy a new Motorola cable, and return the brand new
Blackberry cable in its place.

RAZR V3 will not charge by simply supplying 5V through USB (it"s possible
to use a common USB cable for charging if you are using the Motorola
special PC driver software).


Any standard 5-connector cable will do.

Motorola uses the pin between Pin #3 and #4 (Pin X) to sense what device is
attached to the mini-USB port.


That's the standard.

Shorting Pin #3 to #2 and #X causes the
phone to go into handsfree/carkit mode and the LCD backlight will ignore
timeout settings and stay on.
Shorting pin X to pin 2 and to pin 4 via R=200KOhm causes the phone to go
into charge mode.
[snip]


Not correct. Read the standard definition.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:23:11 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:11:39 -0800, John Navas wrote:

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. ...


This is actually just a matter of the wrong cable / connection.
The problem is that not all Standard-A to Mini-B USB cables are the same


While that may be the problem, the solution, for those of us with both
Blackberry and Motorola equipment, is to purchase Motorola cables and
return the new Blackberry equipment in its place.


Any
_standard_
cable
will
do.

Thanks Jerry G. for solving this problem for us!


What he posted was substantially erroneous.
You're compounding the problem.
Learn first. Then rant.

--
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:27:52 -0800, John Navas wrote:

Not correct. Read the standard definition.


Hi John,
I'm confused by all the cable pin out information so I won't respond
directly but will read and reread the replies to see if I understand.

All I know is that it "seemed" to me that the Motorola cabling worked on
both the Motorola and Blackberry equipment (at least that has been my
experience).

So, I admit, I might be wrong and this is getting OT anyway but my
"solution" seemed to work (which was to replace all my Blackberry cabling
with Motorola cabling).

Pat
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:30:29 -0800, John Navas wrote:

Any _standard_ cable will do.


I admit I don't understand the cabling at all.

All I ask is, given the information above, is whether the Motorola cables
are more standard then than the Blackberry cables?

Is that why the Motorola cabling works with the Blackberry but the
Blackberry cabling doesn't work with Motorola equipment?

Pat
PS: I'm out of my league on the cabling, I admit.


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Pat Cheney wrote:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:11:39 -0800, John Navas wrote:

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers. ...


This is actually just a matter of the wrong cable / connection.
The problem is that not all Standard-A to Mini-B USB cables are the same


Hi John,
While that may be the problem, the solution, for those of us with both
Blackberry and Motorola equipment, is to purchase Motorola cables and
return the new Blackberry equipment in its place.



So YOUR answer is to be a thief?


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:56:06 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:27:52 -0800, John Navas wrote:

Not correct. Read the standard definition.


I'm confused by all the cable pin out information so I won't respond
directly but will read and reread the replies to see if I understand.

All I know is that it "seemed" to me that the Motorola cabling worked on
both the Motorola and Blackberry equipment (at least that has been my
experience).


The Motorola cable is a standard cable, not a special Motorola cable.
The cable that doesn't work is a non-standard cable, no matter what it's
called.

So, I admit, I might be wrong and this is getting OT anyway but my
"solution" seemed to work (which was to replace all my Blackberry cabling
with Motorola cabling).


"Work" can be a poor criterion. "Right" is better. The Motorola cables
are "right" because they are standard, and because Crackberry takes a
standard cable. If it didn't, then they wouldn't be right.

As in the case of cameras, you need to better inform yourself if you're
not going to rely on what the manufacturer gives you.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:59:23 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:30:29 -0800, John Navas wrote:

Any _standard_ cable will do.


I admit I don't understand the cabling at all.

All I ask is, given the information above, is whether the Motorola cables
are more standard then than the Blackberry cables?


Motorola cables are standard. If the Crackberry cables don't work with
Motorola phones, then they aren't standard.

Is that why the Motorola cabling works with the Blackberry but the
Blackberry cabling doesn't work with Motorola equipment?


Yes.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:16:10 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

While that may be the problem, the solution, for those of us with both
Blackberry and Motorola equipment, is to purchase Motorola cables and
return the new Blackberry equipment in its place.


So YOUR answer is to be a thief?


Well, now I feed bad. At first, until John Navas corrected me, I thought
the problem was Motorola's fault.

In all my tests, the Motorola cables, power supplies, and auto adapters
worked with the Blackberry but the Blackberry cables, power supplies, and
auto adapters did not work with the Motorola phone.

Errantly, after much discussion with myself, (I'm an INFJ) I laid blame
squarely on the Motorola engineers. Since it was their fault, I returned
perfectly new equipment to them, in the form of brand new Blackberry
equipment.

That way, I had a set of cables, power supplies, and auto adapters that
worked with all my electronic devices, whether they be card readers, ear
phones, cell phones, cameras, or GPS navigation units.

Now I feel bad that I gave actually bad cables to Motorola instead of the
other way around. All the equipment was new so I didn't benefit from it, so
I don't consider it stealing. I consider it making my point known.

It turns out, from you and John Navas, that I misdirected my ire, something
we INFJs tend to do. I no longer recommend everyone send Blackberry
equipment back to Motorla as a form of silent protest!

Thank you for setting me straight!
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:51:02 -0800, John Navas wrote:

As in the case of cameras, you need to better inform yourself if you're
not going to rely on what the manufacturer gives you.


Indeed. I learned a LOT from this nntp thread!

1. I learned to decode the manufacturer specifications for camera ports
(e.g., a USB/AV port isn't a mini-usb port)

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)

3. I learned WHY Casio put a proprietary USB port on the EXILIM camera
(e.g., it's cheaper and takes less space than separate AV & USB does)

4. I learned NOT to remove the flash card from the camera indiscriminately
(e.g., that's probably how I "corrupted" the flash card)

5. I learned that dpreview & steve's digicam don't list connector format
(e.g., they don't say anything you can't get on Casio's own web site)

6. I even learned why there is a USB-A and USB-B on my hard disk
(e.g., John Navas says it's so we don't mix up analog & digital signals)

7. I learned I was blaming the wrong manufacturer for the Blackberry fiasco
(e.g., I sent Blackberry equipment to Motorola; I should have switched)

8. I learned not everyone wants a single cable to work with all electronics
(this, for the life of me, is unfathomable, but it is apprently true)

9. I'm even learning how to fix a corrupted Sandisk flash card
(e.g., mine is RAW and won't format in Windows no matter what I do)

10. I learned that there are some really nice helpful people on the usenet
(thanks to John Navas, SMS, Marco Tedaldi, Tony Cooper, Jurgen Exner,
etc.)


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In article , John Navas
wrote:

All I ask is, given the information above, is whether the Motorola cables
are more standard then than the Blackberry cables?


Motorola cables are standard. If the Crackberry cables don't work with
Motorola phones, then they aren't standard.


how is it that you consider calling a camera 'p&s' to be pejorative and
offensive, yet you refer to a blackberry as a 'crackberry', a term
which is arguably even more so ?
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:07:06 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote
in :

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:51:02 -0800, John Navas wrote:

As in the case of cameras, you need to better inform yourself if you're
not going to rely on what the manufacturer gives you.


Indeed. I learned a LOT from this nntp thread!

1. I learned to decode the manufacturer specifications for camera ports
(e.g., a USB/AV port isn't a mini-usb port)

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)

3. I learned WHY Casio put a proprietary USB port on the EXILIM camera
(e.g., it's cheaper and takes less space than separate AV & USB does)

4. I learned NOT to remove the flash card from the camera indiscriminately
(e.g., that's probably how I "corrupted" the flash card)

5. I learned that dpreview & steve's digicam don't list connector format
(e.g., they don't say anything you can't get on Casio's own web site)

6. I even learned why there is a USB-A and USB-B on my hard disk
(e.g., John Navas says it's so we don't mix up analog & digital signals)


These are cable connectors, and they are different so average consumers
don't inadvertently create a non-working loop.

7. I learned I was blaming the wrong manufacturer for the Blackberry fiasco
(e.g., I sent Blackberry equipment to Motorola; I should have switched)

8. I learned not everyone wants a single cable to work with all electronics
(this, for the life of me, is unfathomable, but it is apprently true)


Many of us either don't care or don't use cables or both.

9. I'm even learning how to fix a corrupted Sandisk flash card
(e.g., mine is RAW and won't format in Windows no matter what I do)

10. I learned that there are some really nice helpful people on the usenet
(thanks to John Navas, SMS, Marco Tedaldi, Tony Cooper, Jurgen Exner,
etc.)


Thank you. Pretty good summary.

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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:26:31 -0500, nospam wrote
in :

In article , John Navas
wrote:

All I ask is, given the information above, is whether the Motorola cables
are more standard then than the Blackberry cables?


Motorola cables are standard. If the Crackberry cables don't work with
Motorola phones, then they aren't standard.


how is it that you consider calling a camera 'p&s' to be pejorative and
offensive, yet you refer to a blackberry as a 'crackberry', a term
which is arguably even more so ?


That, sir, was only in fun. I have great respect for the Blackberry.
I have a few friends addicted to them who use that term themselves, and
I've picked it from them. I didn't realize it was a sensitive issue for
you. My apologies.

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On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:31:37 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:56:05 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:14:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0800, Pat Cheney put
finger to keyboard and composed:

One problem I've found with cellphones is Motorola. For some reason,
Motorola USB is "special" USB.

I've found that Motorola chargers work fine with all other phones but
Motorola phones don't work well with the other chargers.

The difference could be just one resistor:
http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml


I also believe that some devices will look for the presence of pullup
or pull-down resistors on the Data+ and/or Data- signal pins. In this
way the device knows when it is connected to a USB host, in which case
it will limit its current draw to 500mA. Otherwise it thinks it is
connected to a fast charger, and then it draws whatever current it
wants.


People, people, enough with the mystery and speculation -- this is part
of the USB standard! It's called ID, and is clearly defined. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_serial_bus#USB_cables


I prefer this more informative article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go

"OTG" is an extension to the USB standard that enables a device to
function either as a host or as a peripheral.

"A key usage case is a mobile phone that can be a Default Host to a
Mass Storage memory stick or a Default Peripheral to a PC."

"The OTG cable has a micro-A plug on one side, and a micro-B plug on
the other (it cannot have two plugs of the same type). OTG adds a
fifth pin to the standard USB connector, called the ID-pin; the
micro-A plug has the ID pin grounded, while the ID in the micro-B plug
is floating. The device that has a micro-A plugged in becomes an OTG
A-device, and the one that has micro-B plugged becomes a B-device (see
above). The type of the plug inserted is detected by the state of the
pin ID."

"USB OTG defines two roles of devices: OTG A-device and OTG B-device.
This terminology defines which side supplies power to the link, and
which is initially the host. The OTG A-device is a power supplier, and
an OTG B-device is a power consumer. The default link configuration is
that A-device act as USB Host and B-device is a USB Device. The host
and device modes may be exchanged later by using HNP (Host Negotiation
Protocol)."

So in order to connect a phone to a PC host, the phone must power up
as a power consumer, and as a peripheral. This in turn means that the
ID pin must be floating. Similary, if the phone is connected to a
charger, then the ID pin must be floating also. If it were grounded,
then the phone would be trying to put power on the cable.

It seems to me that it would be a very straightforward matter to
determine the actual connectivity of a Blackberry or Motorola mini-USB
cables. Just break out a $10 DMM, clamp the ends of the cable in a
vice, extend the DMM probes with sewing needles taped to the ends, and
then measure the resistances between the pins. That should put any
unsubstantiated assertions quickly to bed.

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates
that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method
at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I
suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable.
I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends.
If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor
is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable
non-standard.

Did I say I was confused?


- Franc Zabkar
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:08 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates
that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method
at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I
suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable.
I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends.
If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor
is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable
non-standard.


Charging only requires either (a) a *standard* (not proprietary)
5-connection Mini-USB cable or (b) a Motorola USB driver. The Motorola
charger simply conforms to the standard.

--
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John


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Pat Cheney wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:51:02 -0800, John Navas wrote:

As in the case of cameras, you need to better inform yourself if you're
not going to rely on what the manufacturer gives you.


Indeed. I learned a LOT from this nntp thread!

1. I learned to decode the manufacturer specifications for camera ports
(e.g., a USB/AV port isn't a mini-usb port)

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)


Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.

3. I learned WHY Casio put a proprietary USB port on the EXILIM camera
(e.g., it's cheaper and takes less space than separate AV & USB does)

4. I learned NOT to remove the flash card from the camera indiscriminately
(e.g., that's probably how I "corrupted" the flash card)

5. I learned that dpreview & steve's digicam don't list connector format
(e.g., they don't say anything you can't get on Casio's own web site)


They say less actually.

6. I even learned why there is a USB-A and USB-B on my hard disk
(e.g., John Navas says it's so we don't mix up analog & digital signals)


If he really said that, he's wrong, but I don't think he said that.

7. I learned I was blaming the wrong manufacturer for the Blackberry fiasco
(e.g., I sent Blackberry equipment to Motorola; I should have switched)

8. I learned not everyone wants a single cable to work with all electronics
(this, for the life of me, is unfathomable, but it is apprently true)


I think that most people would prefer it, but they aren't too upset when
it isn't the case. I know that in China the government has mandated that
USB connectors be used for charge connectors for low-current devices,
but AFAIK there is no standard they've mandated for AV connectors. Maybe
we should encourage the Chinese government to mandate standards for this
kind of stuff since we are unable to do it.
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

[HUGE snip]


Whatever you do, ignore posts by "SMS" -- he pontificates about things
he knows nothing about, and tries to put down people that expose him for
what he is.

--
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John
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:29:27 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:08 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates
that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method
at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I
suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable.
I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends.
If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor
is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable
non-standard.


Charging only requires either (a) a *standard* (not proprietary)
5-connection Mini-USB cable or (b) a Motorola USB driver. The Motorola
charger simply conforms to the standard.


Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it
have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and
Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need
to have 5 pins at both ends?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:03:03 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:29:27 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:08 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates
that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method
at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I
suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable.
I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends.
If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor
is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable
non-standard.


Charging only requires either (a) a *standard* (not proprietary)
5-connection Mini-USB cable or (b) a Motorola USB driver. The Motorola
charger simply conforms to the standard.


Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it
have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and
Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need
to have 5 pins at both ends?


Whatever you say, Franc. [sigh]

--
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John
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:04:33 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:03:03 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:29:27 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:08 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates
that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method
at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I
suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable.
I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends.
If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor
is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable
non-standard.

Charging only requires either (a) a *standard* (not proprietary)
5-connection Mini-USB cable or (b) a Motorola USB driver. The Motorola
charger simply conforms to the standard.


Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it
have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and
Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need
to have 5 pins at both ends?


Whatever you say, Franc. [sigh]


What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard for you to quantify what
*you* mean by "standard cable"? I have never seen a Blackberry or
Motorola mini-USB cable. Have you? What's on either end? Four pins or
five pins? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:03:00 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

[HUGE snip]


Whatever you do, ignore posts by "SMS" -- he pontificates about things
he knows nothing about, and tries to put down people that expose him for
what he is.


Pontification?

Pot, kettle, black.

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:14:36 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:03:00 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

[HUGE snip]


Whatever you do, ignore posts by "SMS" -- he pontificates about things
he knows nothing about, and tries to put down people that expose him for
what he is.


Pontification?

Pot, kettle, black.

- Franc Zabkar


I see you haven't changed, Franc. Pity.

--
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John
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Franc Zabkar wrote:

What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard for you to quantify what
*you* mean by "standard cable"? I have never seen a Blackberry or
Motorola mini-USB cable. Have you? What's on either end? Four pins or
five pins? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?


The connector is standard, but the Motorola phone recognizes a Motorola
charger by circuitry in the charger that uses the fifth pin as a sense
pin. Hence a 5 pin mini-USB cable connected to the phone, with only +5V
and GND won't charge the phone because the phone will know that it isn't
connected to a Motorola charger (or an after-market charger with the
same circuitry). The phone will display "Unauthorized Charger."
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:50:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:14:36 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:03:00 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

[HUGE snip]

Whatever you do, ignore posts by "SMS" -- he pontificates about things
he knows nothing about, and tries to put down people that expose him for
what he is.


Pontification?

Pot, kettle, black.

- Franc Zabkar


I see you haven't changed, Franc. Pity.


No, John, it is you who is still your old arrogant self. I have openly
confessed my ignorance. All I'm asking is that you provide more
detail, if you have any. None of the questions I've asked are
difficult, and I haven't asked them to score points. Neither am I
prepared to stroke your ego.

In the past we've had discussions in sci.electronics repair in regard
to how USB chargers work, but IIRC we weren't able to resolve
anything. I'm still ready and willing to learn, but I won't accept
your unsubstantiated assertions. I need independently verifiable
*facts*. So how many pins does a Blackberry or Motorola mini-USB cable
have at either end? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:00:52 -0800, SMS
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard for you to quantify what
*you* mean by "standard cable"? I have never seen a Blackberry or
Motorola mini-USB cable. Have you? What's on either end? Four pins or
five pins? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?


The connector is standard, but the Motorola phone recognizes a Motorola
charger by circuitry in the charger that uses the fifth pin as a sense
pin. Hence a 5 pin mini-USB cable connected to the phone, with only +5V
and GND won't charge the phone because the phone will know that it isn't
connected to a Motorola charger (or an after-market charger with the
same circuitry). The phone will display "Unauthorized Charger."


Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:05:30 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:00:52 -0800, SMS
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard for you to quantify what
*you* mean by "standard cable"? I have never seen a Blackberry or
Motorola mini-USB cable. Have you? What's on either end? Four pins or
five pins? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?


The connector is standard, but the Motorola phone recognizes a Motorola
charger by circuitry in the charger that uses the fifth pin as a sense
pin. Hence a 5 pin mini-USB cable connected to the phone, with only +5V
and GND won't charge the phone because the phone will know that it isn't
connected to a Motorola charger (or an after-market charger with the
same circuitry). The phone will display "Unauthorized Charger."


Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?


You guys are made for each other. Best wishes.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?


No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, the charger
is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:32:21 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?


No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, the charger
is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).


Or you could simply ignore this nonsense.

--
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John
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:32:21 -0800, SMS
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?


No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, ...


Don't you mean that "the Motorola *phone* uses a five pin mini-USB
connector"?

... the charger is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.


Ah, so the cable is not completely detachable, ie the charger end is
hard wired? I got the impression from other posters that the cable was
replaceable.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).


Yes, it appears so. It seems to me that, if the 5th pin were either
grounded or floating as John Navas says, then the observations
recorded by the people at pinouts.ru would not hold up. Obviously the
ID pin cannot be grounded, as the USB OTG spec would then compel the
phone to be a power giver, not a power receiver. So the ID pin must be
floating, if it follows the USB standard. But if this pin were
floating, then the voltage would not change when the charger is
attached. Furthermore, there would be no need for a fifth conductor
along the length of the cable. A DMM would confirm its absence, if JN
were correct. Similarly, when testing for resistance between the 5th
pin and ground, we would not expect to measure 200K ohms as others
appear to have done.

- Franc Zabkar
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS wrote:

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)


Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.


OK. I admit. I'm confused. That's what I originally thought.

All I know for sure is that my entire box of mini-usb cables & wall
chargers work on the Blackberry, but only the Motorola mini-usb cables and
wall chargers work on the Motorola RAZR cellphone.

I think my Nuvi charger also works on the Blackberry but not on the
Motorola RAZR (we can ask the GPS guys if they know more about the pinout).

So, I'm confused which is the 4-pin and which is the 5-pin
standard.http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N...r_pinout.shtml

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?
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