Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Pat Cheney wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS wrote:

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)

Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.


OK. I admit. I'm confused. That's what I originally thought.

All I know for sure is that my entire box of mini-usb cables & wall
chargers work on the Blackberry, but only the Motorola mini-usb cables and
wall chargers work on the Motorola RAZR cellphone.


Right, because Motorola phones won't charge if you just connect +5V and
GND from the USB port.

Actually, it's technically not true to say that Motorola doesn't follow
the USB standard. USB was not designed as a way to charge portable
devices, and Motorola is free to do whatever they want, but most devices
with USB jacks for charging and/or data are able to charge with just +5V
and GND being supplied.
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Pat Cheney schrieb:

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?


I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A. But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi


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Franc Zabkar schrieb:

Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it
have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and
Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Power tells, that this is the "Battery
Charging Specification". This way no electronics is needed in a simple
Charger.
The wikipedia article (especially the power section" is a highly
recommended read for all the people discussing here since it covers most
of the topics discussed.

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need
to have 5 pins at both ends?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Types_of_USB_connector should have the
answer. And to be honest. I've just now read it...

kruemi

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In article , Marco Tedaldi
wrote:

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A.


no, it's 500 ma per port.
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Marco Tedaldi wrote:
Pat Cheney schrieb:
Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?


I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A. But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi


And does that explain why you need 5 wires??

My reading skills must be impaired...


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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
wrote in
:

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

....
So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.


True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.

--
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:45:07 +0100, Sjouke Burry
wrote in
:

And does that explain why you need 5 wires??


The 5th connection is device ID. See the USB specs.

My reading skills must be impaired...


[shrug]

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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Pat Cheney schrieb:

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?


I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Power

"A unit load is defined as 100mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150mA
in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads can be drawn from a port in USB
2.0, and was raised to 6 in USB 3.0."

But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong.


I couldn't find anything in the abovementioned Wikipedia article that
discussed the 5th ID pin in relation to battery charging. AFAICS, this
pin should be floating at the phone end, not terminated with a
resistor to ground. Does the "Battery Charging Specification" redefine
the function of this pin, or is Motorola's implementation
non-standard?

Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi


- Franc Zabkar
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On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:22:28 +1100, Franc Zabkar
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I couldn't find anything in the abovementioned Wikipedia article that
discussed the 5th ID pin in relation to battery charging. AFAICS, this
pin should be floating at the phone end, not terminated with a
resistor to ground. Does the "Battery Charging Specification" redefine
the function of this pin, or is Motorola's implementation
non-standard?


This is the "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devcla...arging_1_0.zip

Fig 3-2 on page 13 shows a Dedicated Charger. The D+ and D- pins are
connected via a resistor, Rdchgr_dat, which has a maximum value of 200
ohms.

The ID pin is left floating at both ends.

Section 3.10 on page 16 defines a "Resistive Detection Mechanism"
whereby a portable device can differentiate between a dedicated
charger and a hub or host charger by looking for pullup and pull-down
resistors on D+ and D-.

In all cases the ID pin is floating.

- Franc Zabkar
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
wrote in
:

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

...
So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.


True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.


Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devcla...arging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc. However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:08:57 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:


True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.


Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devcla...arging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc.


Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.


It's standard, and not a voltage.

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.


Those are your contentions, not what the spec says.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:08:57 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:


True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.


Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devcla...arging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc.


Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.


Please explain, with references to the actual text.

However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.


It's standard, and not a voltage.


The people at pinouts.ru have *measured* it. What have *you* done?

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.


Those are your contentions, not what the spec says.


What *does* the spec say?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:


Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.


Please explain, with references to the actual text.


No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

--
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John
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On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:


Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.


Please explain, with references to the actual text.


No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.


Ah, it's the same old John Navas. When you having nothing to say, say
it as convincingly as possible. If you say it often enough, at least
*some* people will believe you. There is no need for actual references
when an ad hominem slur will do.

Unlike you, John, I don't promote myself as the fount of all
knowledge. I accept that I am ignorant and fallible. And unlike you, I
would never dream of trying to pass myself of as a consultant. As a
consultant I could not afford to be seen to be wrong, as this would
damage my commercial standing.

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:21:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:


Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.


No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.


Ah, it's the same old John Navas. [childish goading deleted]


And the same old Franc, ranting the same old childish goading.

Such is life.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John


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On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:50:03 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:21:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.


Ah, it's the same old John Navas. [childish goading deleted]


And the same old Franc, ranting the same old childish goading.

Such is life.


I see no evidence that you're anything other than a deskbound
specification junkie suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Here at sci.electronics.repair there are real technicians who
understand which end of a soldering iron is hot. We also understand
integrated circuits, ie those square and rectangular plastic thingies
with lots of shiny pins.

If you can refute the work of the people at pinouts.ru, people who
presumably are technicians themselves, then here is your golden
opportunity to do so. What resistance or voltage do *you* measure on
the ID pin of a Motorola RAZR charger?

- Franc Zabkar
--
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On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:00:39 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:50:03 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:21:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. [childish goading deleted]


And the same old Franc, ranting the same old childish goading.

Such is life.


I see no evidence that you're anything other than a deskbound
specification junkie suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Here at sci.electronics.repair there are real technicians who
understand which end of a soldering iron is hot. We also understand
integrated circuits, ie those square and rectangular plastic thingies
with lots of shiny pins.

If you can refute the work of the people at pinouts.ru, people who
presumably are technicians themselves, then here is your golden
opportunity to do so. What resistance or voltage do *you* measure on
the ID pin of a Motorola RAZR charger?


You have now had the last word.
Can you resist the temptation to add something else?
Enquiring minds want to know.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. When you having nothing to say, say
it as convincingly as possible. If you say it often enough, at least
*some* people will believe you.


Highly unlikely that anyone will believe him. He has such a long history
that anytime he starts up someone points out that he has no idea what
he's talking about.
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On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:29:28 -0800, SMS
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. When you having nothing to say, say
it as convincingly as possible. If you say it often enough, at least
*some* people will believe you.


Highly unlikely that anyone will believe him. He has such a long history
that anytime he starts up someone points out that he has no idea what
he's talking about.


What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

- Franc Zabkar
--
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In article , SMS
wrote:

Highly unlikely that anyone will believe him. He has such a long history
that anytime he starts up someone points out that he has no idea what
he's talking about.


nobody else would be like that, right?


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Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:29:28 -0800, SMS
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. When you having nothing to say, say
it as convincingly as possible. If you say it often enough, at least
*some* people will believe you.

Highly unlikely that anyone will believe him. He has such a long history
that anytime he starts up someone points out that he has no idea what
he's talking about.


What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.


You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight. I bought ten of them at $3 each for an enrichment day
science presentation that I did at my son's school on Ohm's law
(something that a few people in this newsgroup would have benefited
from, judging from a recent thread on batteries where several people,
including Navas, demonstrated their lack of understanding of the
difference between current, power, and energy).
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On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:06:17 -0800, SMS
wrote in :

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight. I bought ten of them at $3 each for an enrichment day
science presentation that I did at my son's school on Ohm's law
(something that a few people in this newsgroup would have benefited
from, judging from a recent thread on batteries where several people,
including Navas, demonstrated their lack of understanding of the
difference between current, power, and energy).


Always the insult. How childish.

--
Best regards,
John http:/navasgroup.com

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level
and then beat you with experience." -Dr. Alan Zimmerman
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In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.


You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.


only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.
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Default Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:37:54 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.


You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.


only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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nospam wrote:

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.


You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.


only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.



They do mail order as well.


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John Navas wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:37:54 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.


only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.



Have you actually tested any of them, or are you just spitting out
more crap? Is your lab standard reference NIST traceable, and currently
certified, or are you just blowing more smoke? Do you have any idea
just how cheap .1% resistors are in OEM quantities? Or that the HF
meters use the same basic IC that the more expensive meters like Fluke
use? A lot of people on the electronics newsgroups have compared them
to expensive meters, and they are an excellent value.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
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On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:58:21 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:


Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.


Have you actually tested any of them, or are you just spitting out
more crap? ...


Do you always fly off the handle like a dipwad? Sheesh. I was just
talking about HF in general, not that item in particular.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:58:21 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
put finger to keyboard and composed:


John Navas wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:37:54 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.

only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.



Have you actually tested any of them, or are you just spitting out
more crap? Is your lab standard reference NIST traceable, and currently
certified, or are you just blowing more smoke? Do you have any idea
just how cheap .1% resistors are in OEM quantities? Or that the HF
meters use the same basic IC that the more expensive meters like Fluke
use? A lot of people on the electronics newsgroups have compared them
to expensive meters, and they are an excellent value.


Maybe this will give you an insight into John Navas's business model:
http://modemfaq.navasgroup.com/faq_f.htm#BestOfBest

After many years watching comp.dcom.modems, I saw no evidence that
John Navas tested any dialup modem on anything other than his own POTS
line(s). In fact he often expressed his disdain for the testing
standards and methodologies of others, many of whom used industry
standard telecoms simulators. Such is the arrogance of the man.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
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Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:58:21 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
put finger to keyboard and composed:


John Navas wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:37:54 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.

only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.

Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.



Have you actually tested any of them, or are you just spitting out
more crap? Is your lab standard reference NIST traceable, and currently
certified, or are you just blowing more smoke? Do you have any idea
just how cheap .1% resistors are in OEM quantities? Or that the HF
meters use the same basic IC that the more expensive meters like Fluke
use? A lot of people on the electronics newsgroups have compared them
to expensive meters, and they are an excellent value.


Maybe this will give you an insight into John Navas's business model:
http://modemfaq.navasgroup.com/faq_f.htm#BestOfBest

After many years watching comp.dcom.modems, I saw no evidence that
John Navas tested any dialup modem on anything other than his own POTS
line(s). In fact he often expressed his disdain for the testing
standards and methodologies of others, many of whom used industry
standard telecoms simulators. Such is the arrogance of the man.



I've seen his type before. Say 'Have a nice day', and they throw a
hissy fit. Let him choke on his own bile.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
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On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:53:42 +1100, Franc Zabkar
wrote in
:

After many years watching comp.dcom.modems, I saw no evidence that
John Navas tested any dialup modem on anything other than his own POTS
line(s). In fact he often expressed his disdain for the testing
standards and methodologies of others, many of whom used industry
standard telecoms simulators. Such is the arrogance of the man.


'Those who have evidence will present their evidence,
whereas those who do not have evidence will attack the man.'

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John


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Default Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?

In rec.photo.digital Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Navas wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:37:54 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , SMS
wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.

only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


Not to mention the quality issue. There are some good things at HF, but
there's also a good deal of cheap crap.


Have you actually tested any of them, or are you just spitting out
more crap? Is your lab standard reference NIST traceable, and currently
certified, or are you just blowing more smoke? Do you have any idea
just how cheap .1% resistors are in OEM quantities? Or that the HF
meters use the same basic IC that the more expensive meters like Fluke
use? A lot of people on the electronics newsgroups have compared them
to expensive meters, and they are an excellent value.


What's more, for the specific purpose of checking out USB connectivity
and charging you don't even need a good meter, a crap one is perfectly
adequate.

--
Chris Malcolm



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In article , Michael A.
Terrell wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.


only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


They do mail order as well.


but then there are shipping charges, bringing it closer to $10. and
it's actually a $3 meter, not $2.
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In article , John Navas
wrote:

Do you always fly off the handle like a dipwad?


with that insult you concede the debate.

'Those who have evidence will present their evidence,
whereas those who do not have evidence will attack the man.'
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On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 18:22:11 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , John Navas
wrote:

Do you always fly off the handle like a dipwad?


with that insult you concede the debate.

'Those who have evidence will present their evidence,
whereas those who do not have evidence will attack the man.'


Nice try, but that was just a question, a serious one.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
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nospam wrote:

In article , Michael A.
Terrell wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2 at
Harbor Freight.

only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.


They do mail order as well.


but then there are shipping charges, bringing it closer to $10. and
it's actually a $3 meter, not $2.



The gas to drive across town to their store isn't free, either so
what's your point?


--
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aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
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your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


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Chris Malcolm wrote:

In rec.photo.digital Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What's more, for the specific purpose of checking out USB connectivity
and charging you don't even need a good meter, a crap one is perfectly
adequate.



Using even a crappy meter is more than some people can understand, as
well.

Sometimes you need to monitor a half dozen voltages or currents at
once. I'd love to do that with lab grade HP meters, each with a IEEE-488
interface, but they are over $2k each.

Some people actually do electronics, while others separate fly ****
from pepper. It isn't difficult to figure ot which category people are
in. I have about a dozen digital meters. The Fluke bench meters are
unrepairable, but the cheap HF meters keep working. Several other
meters are used, for the extended ranges, or special functions.

Fifty years ago he would have claimed that the $20 Heathkit VTVM
wasn't as good as the RCA VoltOhmist. that was closer to $100 even
though the circuits were almost identical.


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your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
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In article , Michael A.
Terrell wrote:

What bugs me is that anyone with an iota of technical competence can
in a matter of minutes determine the connectivity of a mini-USB
cable
or a USB charger using only a $10 multimeter.

You're wrong. You can often buy digital multimeters for less than $2
at
Harbor Freight.

only if there's a harbor freight store nearby and if it's on sale.
that's not going to be the case for most people.

They do mail order as well.


but then there are shipping charges, bringing it closer to $10. and
it's actually a $3 meter, not $2.


The gas to drive across town to their store isn't free, either so
what's your point?


as i said originally, not everyone is near a store.
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nospam wrote:

as i said originally, not everyone is near a store.



OK, so you just want excuses. Have it your way. Don't do anything,
but complain. When I started in electronics in the early '60s almost
everything was mail order from various printed catalogs. 30 days was the
usual wait for anything. Backorders were common, as well as canceled
orders. I mowed lawns and did any other job someone would pay a
teenager to do to buy tools, parts and service data. I taught myself
electronics starting at eight years old, and by the time I was 20 I
tested out of a three year EE school in the US Army.


Now you have electronic order processing and overnight delivery on
lots of parts, yet you bitch because you can't take three steps from
your couch to the store. Parts and equipment are dirt cheap, easy to
find and well documented today. The only 'bargains' in the '60s was
electronic surplus. Mostly worn out or damaged military or industrial
surplus from W.W.II. You had to dig through piles of junk to find
something repairable, and take your chances. Some equipment was so bad
that it was sold by the pound. Even then, it was over an hour drive to
the nearest surplus dealer.


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your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

snip
Parts and equipment are dirt cheap, easy to
find and well documented today. The only 'bargains' in the '60s was
electronic surplus. Mostly worn out or damaged military or industrial
surplus from W.W.II.


My experience is somewhat different; I benefited from large quantities
of nearly new military surplus for decades, which has now dried up; I
also had the benefit of companies willing to provide schematics and
technical documentation (usually at no charge, merely for the asking
in written requests) which is now unheard-of. To me the situation
has become markedly worse.

Michael
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In article ,
says...
Chris Malcolm wrote:

In rec.photo.digital Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What's more, for the specific purpose of checking out USB connectivity
and charging you don't even need a good meter, a crap one is perfectly
adequate.



Using even a crappy meter is more than some people can understand, as
well.

Sometimes you need to monitor a half dozen voltages or currents at
once. I'd love to do that with lab grade HP meters, each with a IEEE-488
interface, but they are over $2k each.


I'd rather I never met an IEEE-488 interface. :-( ...one off the
world's most stupid designs.

Some people actually do electronics, while others separate fly ****
from pepper. It isn't difficult to figure ot which category people are
in. I have about a dozen digital meters. The Fluke bench meters are
unrepairable, but the cheap HF meters keep working. Several other
meters are used, for the extended ranges, or special functions.


HF meters aren't repairable, and Flukes keep working. ;-)

I have three (one escaped) Fluke 77s and a bunch of HFs. I keep
the HFs in my tool boxes so they get borrowed. Since I've been
doing this, my Flukes haven't gone missing.

Fifty years ago he would have claimed that the $20 Heathkit VTVM
wasn't as good as the RCA VoltOhmist. that was closer to $100 even
though the circuits were almost identical.


Depends on who built the Heathkit. ;-) They did take a beating,
though there was one resistor in the ohms section...




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