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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Ultrasonic bath
Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in electronics is low. Some details: The ic is the 555, for on/off and timer purposes, including the relay and the small trnasistor. The above left part (in reference to Photo 017.jpg) is the AC input, and the upper part the AC--DC. The transformer drives the transducer. The low part is the oscillator (two transistors, some resistors 1 and 1/2W, a few capacitors and two diodes). The torroidal transformer I don't know what it does. Does anyone know which parts to change? I don't know to change the transformer if it needed. I will try with the same transformer. Output wattage is not significant. http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20017.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20015.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20018.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20007.jpg Thank you -- Yianni (Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email) |
#2
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Ultrasonic bath
The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If
you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. |
#3
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Ultrasonic bath
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 04:31:49 +0300, "Yianni"
wrote: Hi, I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to increase it to about 50%. 'it' being frequency? If so, I doubt it: the transducer is resonate and would have to be replaced. 'it' being power? If so, I doubt it: the transucer is only going to be able to handle a certain amount of power before failing. I expect about 15W output. |
#4
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Ultrasonic bath
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. .. The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific one. On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change? -- Yianni (Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email) |
#5
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Ultrasonic bath
Just to say what I meant. The specific transducer is inexpencive one, most
like a "buzzer" than a conventional transducer. I have seen some other ultrasonic baths involving just a buzzer!! I don't care for the power, even if it reduced at 10%. |
#6
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Ultrasonic bath
"Yianni" wrote in message
news:1218677883.639830@athprx04... "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message . .. The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific one. On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change? I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude. Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a model number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would have the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product? Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the context of the question you asked and the overall design of such products. If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself. |
#7
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Ultrasonic bath
"William Sommerwerck" writes:
"Yianni" wrote in message news:1218677883.639830@athprx04... "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message . .. The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific one. On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change? I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude. Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a model number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would have the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product? Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the context of the question you asked and the overall design of such products. If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself. To be a bit more diplomatic , the OP did supply photos of the PCB. But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps" don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what the components do. If the OP would do that and post a schematic, or even a partial schematic, then someone should be able to help. -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#8
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Ultrasonic bath
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:32:44 +0300, "Yianni"
wrote: "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. Your first three words are correct. The remainder of the statement is not. It is very resonant. At least the specific one. On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change? |
#9
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Ultrasonic bath
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:41:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: "Yianni" wrote in message news:1218677883.639830@athprx04... "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message . .. The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced. I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific one. On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change? I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude. Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a model number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would have the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product? Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the context of the question you asked and the overall design of such products. If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself. Horse... Dead... Beating... Stop! |
#11
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Ultrasonic bath
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:49:17 +0300, "Yianni" put
finger to keyboard and composed: Thank you for your reply. But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps" don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what the components do. You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50 times more time and effort to find what he wants. If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will. The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer. The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions: http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710 http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.ph...&postcount=228 Registration -- http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first. Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ... http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/search.html Here are some examples: OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#12
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Ultrasonic bath
"Yianni" writes:
Thank you for your reply. But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps" don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what the components do. You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50 times more time and effort to find what he wants. If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will. The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer. The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions: http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710 http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.ph...&postcount=228 Registration -- http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first. Yeah, I despise those sites..... Although in all fairness, some have useful information or downloads. Whether they have a schematic? Could be, but it could just be someone else asking.... There's probably a pair of power transistors or MOSFETs that's a power oscillator. If you trace around that area, it could help. But no guarantees. But assuming it is resonant, that may be part of what determines the frequency. -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#13
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Ultrasonic bath
Franc Zabkar writes:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:49:17 +0300, "Yianni" put finger to keyboard and composed: Thank you for your reply. But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps" don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what the components do. You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50 times more time and effort to find what he wants. If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will. The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer. The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions: http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710 http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.ph...&postcount=228 Registration -- http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first. Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ... http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/search.html Here are some examples: OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece? -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#14
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Ultrasonic bath
What are you ``ultrasonicing`` ? With todays good cleaning products i
use my ultrasonic way less these days |
#15
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Ultrasonic bath
There's probably a pair of power transistors or MOSFETs that's
a power oscillator. If you trace around that area, it could help. But no guarantees. But assuming it is resonant, that may be part of what determines the frequency. Particularly if it's an inexpensive product. It would make sense to have the circuit oscillate at the natural frequency of the transducer. |
#16
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Ultrasonic bath
On 14 Aug 2008 19:30:19 -0400, (Samuel M.
Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar writes: If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece? In all honesty, I was going to suggest something along those lines, assuming it is at all feasible. Years ago I had a problem with a 25MHz crystal that had begun to oscillate at a higher frequency (not an overtone). I suspect that either a piece had chipped off as a result of an accident, or maybe a dag that was present during the trimming process finally fell off in normal usage. Alternatively, the OP might try procuring a ready-made replacement: http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/P...er-cleaner.htm For example, the ANN-2560 is rated at 59kHz and 25W. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#17
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Ultrasonic bath
On 13 Aug, 02:31, "Yianni" wrote:
Hi, I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in electronics is low. WHY do you want to increase the frequency? Dave W |
#18
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Ultrasonic bath
Franc Zabkar writes:
On 14 Aug 2008 19:30:19 -0400, (Samuel M. Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar writes: If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece? In all honesty, I was going to suggest something along those lines, assuming it is at all feasible. Years ago I had a problem with a 25MHz crystal that had begun to oscillate at a higher frequency (not an overtone). I suspect that either a piece had chipped off as a result of an accident, or maybe a dag that was present during the trimming process finally fell off in normal usage. Alternatively, the OP might try procuring a ready-made replacement: http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/P...er-cleaner.htm For example, the ANN-2560 is rated at 59kHz and 25W. We don't even know what he wants to do with it. Maybe for somniluminescence or cold fusion! -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#19
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Ultrasonic bath
"Dave W" wrote in message
... On 13 Aug, 02:31, "Yianni" wrote: Hi, I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in electronics is low. WHY do you want to increase the frequency? Dave W The higher the frequency the less cleaning power. But... in higher frequencies, the cleaning power it reaches to smaller cavities, etc (for parts with holes, etc). I want to do a test for specific parts. -- Yianni (Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email) |
#20
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Ultrasonic bath
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:41:23 +0300, "Yianni" put
finger to keyboard and composed: Just to say what I meant. The specific transducer is inexpencive one, most like a "buzzer" than a conventional transducer. I have seen some other ultrasonic baths involving just a buzzer!! I don't care for the power, even if it reduced at 10%. I don't know if this will be relevant to a 40kHz transducer being driven at 60kHz (if that's possible), but the 59kHz transducer in the following product range has a rated power of 25W whereas the 40kHz transducer with the same impedance is rated for 40W. http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/P...er-cleaner.htm BTW, on closer examination of the circuit, it appears to me that the LM555 is switching a relay which in turn switches rectified but unfiltered mains voltage to the oscillator. I suspect that the piezo element determines the frequency of oscillation, and this oscillation appears to be amplitude modulated by the 120Hz/100Hz mains. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#21
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Ultrasonic bath
Thank you for your time.
Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ... I don't know, I suspect not because is an inexpensive chinese model. Here are some examples: OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html I took a look on them. It seems that none resembles the design of mine ultrasonic. If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. The transducer is not as these you referred to the other post. These transducers are the "professional" transducers. This in the specific ultrasonic cleaner is more like a buzzer than a conventional transducer. It's diametre is twice than a conventional buzzer. Of course there is a small possibility to resonate to a specific frequency, but I think not. The reason for that, is that another model has just a NORMAL buzzer same as this for beeps. Of course both ultrasonic cleaners -I mentioned- are inexpensive chinese models with low power. A "normal" ultrasonic cleaner I have had, in 15 seconds it cleaned the same as these cheap cleaners in 5 minutes. This is the "big" buzzer http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20021.jpg . Epoxy glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not resonance). The green area is not the oscillator http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20019.jpg . |
#22
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Ultrasonic bath
BTW, on closer examination of the circuit, it appears to me that the
LM555 is switching a relay which in turn switches rectified but unfiltered mains voltage to the oscillator. I suspect that the piezo element determines the frequency of oscillation, and this oscillation appears to be amplitude modulated by the 120Hz/100Hz mains. Yes, the 555 is switching the relay (on/off). I don't know what exactly this design is, but it seems you are right. The transformer has three pins. Two of them drive the transducer, and the other one is connected to the mains power. Parallel to the driving coil there is a capacitor. In the first I thought a simpler design. Now, I think the schematic is needed. |
#23
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Ultrasonic bath
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 05:20:21 +0300, "Yianni" put
finger to keyboard and composed: Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ... I don't know, I suspect not because is an inexpensive chinese model. This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question: http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker. If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with external components, ie it makes no sense. The transducer is not as these you referred to the other post. These transducers are the "professional" transducers. This in the specific ultrasonic cleaner is more like a buzzer than a conventional transducer. It's diametre is twice than a conventional buzzer. Of course there is a small possibility to resonate to a specific frequency, but I think not. The reason for that, is that another model has just a NORMAL buzzer same as this for beeps. Of course both ultrasonic cleaners -I mentioned- are inexpensive chinese models with low power. A "normal" ultrasonic cleaner I have had, in 15 seconds it cleaned the same as these cheap cleaners in 5 minutes. The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. shrug This is the "big" buzzer http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20021.jpg . How about these "buzzer" shaped transducers: http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/P...ic-cleaner.htm They all have a well defined resonant frequency. Epoxy glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not resonance). I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though. The green area is not the oscillator http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20019.jpg . Yes I am aware of that. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#24
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Ultrasonic bath
The transducer is not as these you referred to the other post. These
transducers are the "professional" transducers. This in the specific ultrasonic cleaner is more like a buzzer than a conventional transducer. It's diametre is twice than a conventional buzzer. Of course there is a small possibility to resonate to a specific frequency, but I think not. Your ignorance is wide and deep. "Buzzers" are, indeed, resonant. In fact, most mechanical systems are resonant. When you combine a mass with a restoring force, you get a resonance. |
#25
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Ultrasonic bath
This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question:
http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker. You are right. Finaly I found a patent number: 01301930.9 . But I found nothing for this patent. May a chinese patent. The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. shrug Don't trust the specification on chinese machines -especialy the inexpensive ones-... The specifications says "power", I think it's the power consumption!! On the other hand, it won't be surprise to be 20W... They all have a well defined resonant frequency. Epoxy glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not resonance). I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though. I was thinking another aspect. At the first post, I said a 50% frequency increase, in my mind I have the possibility of 100% increase. Even if the "transducer" resonate to a frequency, it would resonate to the double frequency too. With "transducer" I mean the transducer alone or the combination of transducer/tank. I will try to find the schematic anyway! |
#26
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Ultrasonic bath
How about these "buzzer" shaped transducers:
http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/P...ic-cleaner.htm The photos are small, I can't understand. The buzzer/transducer of the ultrasonic is: diametre 40mm (1.5"), thickness 4mm (0.15"). The "normal" transducers are about 1000g weight, the specific I suppose about 25g. |
#27
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Ultrasonic bath
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:20:00 +0300, "Yianni" put
finger to keyboard and composed: This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question: http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker. You are right. Finaly I found a patent number: 01301930.9 . But I found nothing for this patent. May a chinese patent. I found this URL for a "Model 2800: Miniature Ultrasonic Cleaner": http://www.asiabt.net/tradeleads/def...ubCategory=235 It makes the following certification claims: Approval & Patent? - ETL approval of USA(No.3012617) - CE approval of EU(No of LVD:H20211 S; No. of EMC:h20175) - GS approval of Germany(No EG0203104) - Our patent No is:01301930.9 I tried searching for "Codyson" here ... http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm .... and found two appliances, but no useful data. :-( This appears to be the PRC IPO database ... http://ensearch.sipo.gov.cn/sipoense...do?method=init .... but my searches produced nothing. The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. shrug Don't trust the specification on chinese machines -especialy the inexpensive ones-... The specifications says "power", I think it's the power consumption!! On the other hand, it won't be surprise to be 20W... How much power do you think a "buzzer" dissipates? ;-| If the transducer is not consuming most of the power, then what is? Do you think it is feasible for the appliance to consume 50W (or 20W) but only deliver a small fraction of that to the transducer? They all have a well defined resonant frequency. Epoxy glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not resonance). I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though. I was thinking another aspect. At the first post, I said a 50% frequency increase, in my mind I have the possibility of 100% increase. Even if the "transducer" resonate to a frequency, it would resonate to the double frequency too. With "transducer" I mean the transducer alone or the combination of transducer/tank. I will try to find the schematic anyway! It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???). I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would need to be considered as well. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#28
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OFf topic: Wanted PAL programmed. :)
"Samuel M. Goldwasser" wrote in message ... I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever really worked properly). I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who might volunteer. Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell..... Thanks! Go to JDR microdevices. They sell that kind of ****. http://www.jdr.com/ or 1-800-538-5000 -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#29
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OFf topic: Wanted PAL programmed. :)
I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer
was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever really worked properly). I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who might volunteer. Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell..... Thanks! -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#30
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OFf topic: Wanted PAL programmed. :)
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#31
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OFf topic: Wanted PAL programmed. :)
Franc Zabkar writes:
On 16 Aug 2008 21:09:34 -0400, (Samuel M. Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed: I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever really worked properly). I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who might volunteer. Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell..... Thanks! I have a Sunshine Expro-60 that has that particular PLD in its device list. However, I'm in Australia. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Well, if you could email the programmed part... Actually, I think I found a problem in the logic so this may be a non-issue. Tow pins swapped. It was my lack of confidence in the programmed more than anything. It's an INLAB28, 20 years old, and I know there were always problems with CUPL and the programmer not using the same squence to do the test vectors. but being 20 years old, my memory is probably more fuzzy than that of the programmer! Thanks! -- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs. |
#32
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Ultrasonic bath
Hello Franc,
I found this URL for a "Model 2800: Miniature Ultrasonic Cleaner": http://www.asiabt.net/tradeleads/def...ubCategory=235 I found the same url. In this the Karin Co. Ltd claims it produces this same model... I insist, don't rely to chinese specifications, claims, etc. China is a country without copyright law at all. China is "selected" to produce imitation procucts, that's why no copyright law. If you see specifications saying: 50W, 42kHz, CE approval, patent no., etc, no surprise if you get: 10W, 25kHz, no CE, no patent at all... Inside China, there is no punishment for a company if it uses CE, ETL, GS approvals signs if it has no approvals. They can make Rolex, Lacoste, or any imitation with no fear. The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less than 1mm thick) claims 30W!!! Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real" transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results: a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : 25 min... It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???). Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone. I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would need to be considered as well. I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking. 1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer) it has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency. 2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a conventional small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace frequency, relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts on the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this machine. I will try to find the schematic, and I will send a message. |
#33
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Ultrasonic bath
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:26:53 +0300, "Yianni" put
finger to keyboard and composed: The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less than 1mm thick) claims 30W!!! Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real" transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results: a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : 25 min... Look at it another way. Why would you need a 7 amp relay to supply power to a "buzzer"? Why would you need such a large heatsink and two high current (?) transistors? I suggest you buy something like this ... http://www.p3international.com/produ.../P4400-CE.html .... and measure the power consumption for yourself. It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???). Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone. I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would need to be considered as well. I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking. 1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer) it has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency. 2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a conventional small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace frequency, relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts on the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this machine. I had another look at the following patent. It suggests that a simple change to your circuit may enable your transducer to resonate at the first overtone (see Fig 3 of the PDF file). It also confirms that the resonant frequency is dependent on the mass of water. OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html The author states that "since the piezoelectric disc is closely coupled to the tank and the water load, the water depth in the tank effects the power transferred to the water and the resonant frequency of the transducer". "On all ultrasonic cleaning systems, some means must be employed to control the frequency at which the generator drives the transducer. If the generator is made to operate at a fixed frequency, poor performance will be encountered, since it is generally not possible to select one frequency which will always provide optimum operating conditions." "In the case of an ultrasonic generator, one is concerned with the behaviour of a piezoelectric transducer at the fundamental and perhaps the lower order overtone frequencies." This part looks very interesting: ================================================== ================== The preference the circuit shows in operating in the vicinity of some initially selected frequency is also desirable in suppressing tendencies to run at overtone frequencies. In some circumstances, however, this effect might not be great enough to completely prevent operation at the overtone. For instance, if the series resonant impedance of the fundamental frequency is slightly greater than at the first overtone, the circuit preference for lower impedance could take precedence and result in operation at the overtone were the shunt capacitor 86 not employed. Since the capacitor 86 is connected across the feedback transformer primary, its capacitive reactance lowers the impedance to overtone frequencies. This results in a lower primary voltage or, more directly, an increase in core saturation time. Thus, any tendencies to run an overtone are adequately suppressed, forcing the circuit to run at the fundamental. In the example given, it is desirable to operate at the fundamental frequency. Nevertheless, if operation at an overtone is desired, this may be accomplished by suitable selection of circuit elements and constants, and the principles of the invention may be employed to enhance operation at the preferred overtone. ================================================== ================== - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#34
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Ultrasonic bath
Yianni wrote:
Hi, I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in electronics is low. Some details: The ic is the 555, for on/off and timer purposes, including the relay and the small trnasistor. The above left part (in reference to Photo 017.jpg) is the AC input, and the upper part the AC--DC. The transformer drives the transducer. The low part is the oscillator (two transistors, some resistors 1 and 1/2W, a few capacitors and two diodes). The torroidal transformer I don't know what it does. Does anyone know which parts to change? I don't know to change the transformer if it needed. I will try with the same transformer. Output wattage is not significant. http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20017.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20015.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20018.jpg http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20007.jpg Thank you This thread sure has a lot of "fuss" over something that can be EASILY measured. Stick a signal generator and scope (or voltmeter) on it. That'll tell you what you can expect. |
#35
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Ultrasonic bath
Hello Franc,
These info are useful and they explain to me much about ultrasonics. Now, all explained!!! I can understand that transducer/tank/water can affect the resonant frequency. That's why the noise is different when the tank is full or half empty; some times it works much away from the resonate frequency because it makes louder noise (I feel it). It seems, it works in a steady frequency. I understand that needs the schematic someone to know how to increase the frequency. In the first I thought it would be easy someone to recognize the design. Seeing that the final transformer has only 3 pins, and the fact that the mains supply direct the transducer (as you said amplitude modulated) I understand the design should be more complicated. After all that, I closed the ultrasonic leaving it working the usual way! "Franc Zabkar" wrote in message ... On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:26:53 +0300, "Yianni" put finger to keyboard and composed: The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less than 1mm thick) claims 30W!!! Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real" transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results: a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : 25 min... Look at it another way. Why would you need a 7 amp relay to supply power to a "buzzer"? Why would you need such a large heatsink and two high current (?) transistors? I suggest you buy something like this ... http://www.p3international.com/produ.../P4400-CE.html ... and measure the power consumption for yourself. It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???). Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone. I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would need to be considered as well. I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking. 1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer) it has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency. 2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a conventional small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace frequency, relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts on the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this machine. I had another look at the following patent. It suggests that a simple change to your circuit may enable your transducer to resonate at the first overtone (see Fig 3 of the PDF file). It also confirms that the resonant frequency is dependent on the mass of water. OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html The author states that "since the piezoelectric disc is closely coupled to the tank and the water load, the water depth in the tank effects the power transferred to the water and the resonant frequency of the transducer". "On all ultrasonic cleaning systems, some means must be employed to control the frequency at which the generator drives the transducer. If the generator is made to operate at a fixed frequency, poor performance will be encountered, since it is generally not possible to select one frequency which will always provide optimum operating conditions." "In the case of an ultrasonic generator, one is concerned with the behaviour of a piezoelectric transducer at the fundamental and perhaps the lower order overtone frequencies." This part looks very interesting: ================================================== ================== The preference the circuit shows in operating in the vicinity of some initially selected frequency is also desirable in suppressing tendencies to run at overtone frequencies. In some circumstances, however, this effect might not be great enough to completely prevent operation at the overtone. For instance, if the series resonant impedance of the fundamental frequency is slightly greater than at the first overtone, the circuit preference for lower impedance could take precedence and result in operation at the overtone were the shunt capacitor 86 not employed. Since the capacitor 86 is connected across the feedback transformer primary, its capacitive reactance lowers the impedance to overtone frequencies. This results in a lower primary voltage or, more directly, an increase in core saturation time. Thus, any tendencies to run an overtone are adequately suppressed, forcing the circuit to run at the fundamental. In the example given, it is desirable to operate at the fundamental frequency. Nevertheless, if operation at an overtone is desired, this may be accomplished by suitable selection of circuit elements and constants, and the principles of the invention may be employed to enhance operation at the preferred overtone. ================================================== ================== - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
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