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#1
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
This is my first newsgroup post so maybe I could ask for some help
from the newsgroup. Please feel free to suggest if there is another newsgroup full of Tektronix gurus. Is there anyone who has experience of repairing a Tektronix TDS 460 or same series.? ( 4 channel 350MHz DSO ) Mine shows an acquisition fail in the self test. It behaves OKish in free run outside the waveform trigger region and one gets an untriggered free running trace activity on screen. However when the trigger level is in the correct active part of the waveform no triggered capture takes place..ie the trig light goes on..good and the waveform disappears..not so good. Having tried to read up any leads from the web I suspect a capacitor may have gone down in either the trigger circuit or on the a/d acquisition board. The snag is that these scopes were module repair only as far as I can tell, so the usual wonderful Tek service manuals which I now have, have no PCB level schematics. I have yet to disassemble the beast, but some pre-advice would be great if there are any stock faults that develop with these scopes..like me I guess they are getting on a bit! My 475A still keeps going well. Any help here would be very gratefully received. Thanks for looking Mike K |
#2
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Smeghead wrote:
This is my first newsgroup post so maybe I could ask for some help from the newsgroup. Please feel free to suggest if there is another newsgroup full of Tektronix gurus. Is there anyone who has experience of repairing a Tektronix TDS 460 or same series.? ( 4 channel 350MHz DSO ) Mine shows an acquisition fail in the self test. It behaves OKish in free run outside the waveform trigger region and one gets an untriggered free running trace activity on screen. However when the trigger level is in the correct active part of the waveform no triggered capture takes place..ie the trig light goes on..good and the waveform disappears..not so good. Having tried to read up any leads from the web I suspect a capacitor may have gone down in either the trigger circuit or on the a/d acquisition board. The snag is that these scopes were module repair only as far as I can tell, so the usual wonderful Tek service manuals which I now have, have no PCB level schematics. I have yet to disassemble the beast, but some pre-advice would be great if there are any stock faults that develop with these scopes..like me I guess they are getting on a bit! My 475A still keeps going well. Any help here would be very gratefully received. Thanks for looking Mike K Many of the scopes of that vintage have one D/A converter. It's multiplexed among about a dozen caps followed by high impedance op-amps to generate all the analog settings from the front panel. The electrolytic caps leak conductive electrolyte onto the board. In early stages, the control voltages are just wrong. In advanced cases, there's crusty corrosion all over the op-amps. But if left too long, the stuff finds its way into a via hole and eats out the plating. At that point you're screwed. Almost no chance of figuring out where to put the jumper wire. The fix for this problem is simple. Locate all the silver, cylindrical surface mount electrolytics. Remove them. Clean the boards several times with Simple Green, then Isopropyl alcohol. Put back new caps. I didn't get the right caps. Just used a 0.1uF 1206 SMT cap for mechanical stability and bridged a leaded electrolytic cap across that. IF any of them are leaky, the rest aren't far behind. Change 'em ALL. I think I counted almost 100 on the last one I fixed. Don't forget all the boards and the front panel board. It's also possible that you have only one electrically leaky cap. Change 'em ALL anyway. And you MUST clean the board, even if you can't see any electrolyte. It's under the chips too. YMMV mike -- Return address is VALID! |
#3
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
On Feb 15, 1:08 am, mike wrote:
Smeghead wrote: This is my first newsgroup post so maybe I could ask for some help from the newsgroup. Please feel free to suggest if there is another newsgroup full of Tektronix gurus. Is there anyone who has experience of repairing a Tektronix TDS 460 or same series.? ( 4 channel 350MHz DSO ) Mine shows an acquisition fail in the self test. It behaves OKish in free run outside the waveform trigger region and one gets an untriggered free running trace activity on screen. However when the trigger level is in the correct active part of the waveform no triggered capture takes place..ie the trig light goes on..good and the waveform disappears..not so good. Having tried to read up any leads from the web I suspect a capacitor may have gone down in either the trigger circuit or on the a/d acquisition board. The snag is that these scopes were module repair only as far as I can tell, so the usual wonderful Tek service manuals which I now have, have no PCB level schematics. I have yet to disassemble the beast, but some pre-advice would be great if there are any stock faults that develop with these scopes..like me I guess they are getting on a bit! My 475A still keeps going well. Any help here would be very gratefully received. Thanks for looking Mike K Many of the scopes of that vintage have one D/A converter. It's multiplexed among about a dozen caps followed by high impedance op-amps to generate all the analog settings from the front panel. The electrolytic caps leak conductive electrolyte onto the board. In early stages, the control voltages are just wrong. In advanced cases, there's crusty corrosion all over the op-amps. But if left too long, the stuff finds its way into a via hole and eats out the plating. At that point you're screwed. Almost no chance of figuring out where to put the jumper wire. The fix for this problem is simple. Locate all the silver, cylindrical surface mount electrolytics. Remove them. Clean the boards several times with Simple Green, then Isopropyl alcohol. Put back new caps. I didn't get the right caps. Just used a 0.1uF 1206 SMT cap for mechanical stability and bridged a leaded electrolytic cap across that. IF any of them are leaky, the rest aren't far behind. Change 'em ALL. I think I counted almost 100 on the last one I fixed. Don't forget all the boards and the front panel board. It's also possible that you have only one electrically leaky cap. Change 'em ALL anyway. And you MUST clean the board, even if you can't see any electrolyte. It's under the chips too. YMMV mike -- Return address is VALID! Brilliant, thanks for that. The prospect of having to deal with so many small caps is a bit of a pain but I guess it needs doing. The previous owner did say that the fault started as an intermittent self test fail and I think it is very likely to be that the caps have got to go. Not having worked on one of these boards I have a couple of questions. Is the removal technique to use 2 soldering irons with fine point tips to do the removal or what is a safe way? Also I don't recognise what you are calling Simple Green? I wonder what the equivalent is in the UK and I have been reading the very good posts on PCB cleaning / different sorts of flux issues etc, I need to do it right and I guess the cleaning stage is vital not to use the wrong stuff and make matters worse. I wonder if the cap values are critical...with 100 or so to replace it sounds a bit of a nightmare to keep track of which ones are which value...made worse by not having pcb level part lists or schematics. I guess you do the replacement one at a time..or are the values and voltage ratings likely to be all similar? I am most impressed that you have seen and replied to my cry for help so quickly as I guess this type of scope problem is hopefully not that common...but I would not know that for sure. I have just been away over most of the weekend and to see a reply in so quickly when I thought the likelyhood of any reply being a) unlikely at all and b) might happen at some unspecified time many weeks later. Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into the TDS. Is there a good make / supplier that I should be using for the replacement caps? Once the far eastern folks had captured the capacitor market all our old makers such as ITT and Plessey could not compete, so it is a bit sad that test gear can be put off the air because the caps have a poor quality and MBTF. Usually I am quite happy that old is still often very good. eg Marconi Instruments, Racal, Wavetek etc kit seems to last well. Many thanks again and I will hope to report good progress in a week or 3 . Your words about the electrolyte getting under chips and onto vias will stay with me for a scarey while :-( If I get stuck can I email you direct to save a "war & peace" on the net? Best regards Mike |
#4
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Smeghead wrote in
: Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into the TDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#5
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
Smeghead wrote : Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into the TDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. |
#6
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Smeghead wrote:
On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote : Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into the TDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. Simple Green is a non corrosive cleaning product safe on just about ever thing, it's good at removing grease and grime. I use windex ( a glass cleaner) a mild cleaner and a air to blow it out from under the bodies once it's in there for a bit. -- http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5" |
#7
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Smeghead wrote:
snip Also I don't recognise what you are calling Simple Green? It's a biodegradable household cleaner that's relatively safe on most things. It disolves the organic stuff that alcohol won't and vice versa. I wonder what the equivalent is in the UK and I have been reading the very good posts on PCB cleaning / different sorts of flux issues etc, I need to do it right and I guess the cleaning stage is vital not to use the wrong stuff and make matters worse. I wonder if the cap values are critical...with 100 or so to replace it sounds a bit of a nightmare to keep track of which ones are which value...made worse by not having pcb level part lists or schematics. I guess you do the replacement one at a time..or are the values and voltage ratings likely to be all similar? There are only two values. I took the highest voltage and the highest C combination and used that for everything. The caps were random leaded surplus electrolytics. There's likely to be some board damage when you do that many. Use a 0.1 1206 cap in each place. That takes care of high frequency issues and gives mechancial stability for the leaded caps. I did one without the smt and that seemed to work too. The solder on the caps will be corroded. Do one end at a time to break thru the corrosion gunk and get a shiny joint. Then use two soldering irons with a slight twisting motion. When it get hot enough, the cap will rotate and flip off the board. That makes the joint stresses sheer and will less likely lift a pad. Don't skimp on the cleaning. Clean it twice, then clean it again. Use a toothbrush and scrub it good... mike -- Return address is VALID! |
#8
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ There's nothing quite like it that I've found, but most any good household cleaner as you might use for scrubbing kitchen counters or the sink should work ok. |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
"Smeghead" wrote in message ... On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote : Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into the TDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ Mike |
#10
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
mike wrote in news:kj5uj.8688$k_4.5895@trnddc04:
Smeghead wrote: snip Also I don't recognise what you are calling Simple Green? It's a biodegradable household cleaner that's relatively safe on most things. It disolves the organic stuff that alcohol won't and vice versa. I wonder what the equivalent is in the UK and I have been reading the very good posts on PCB cleaning / different sorts of flux issues etc, I need to do it right and I guess the cleaning stage is vital not to use the wrong stuff and make matters worse. I wonder if the cap values are critical...with 100 or so to replace it sounds a bit of a nightmare to keep track of which ones are which value...made worse by not having pcb level part lists or schematics. I guess you do the replacement one at a time..or are the values and voltage ratings likely to be all similar? There are only two values. I took the highest voltage and the highest C combination and used that for everything. The caps were random leaded surplus electrolytics. There's likely to be some board damage when you do that many. Use a 0.1 1206 cap in each place. That takes care of high frequency issues and gives mechancial stability for the leaded caps. I did one without the smt and that seemed to work too. The solder on the caps will be corroded. Do one end at a time to break thru the corrosion gunk and get a shiny joint. Then use two soldering irons with a slight twisting motion. When it get hot enough, the cap will rotate and flip off the board. That makes the joint stresses sheer and will less likely lift a pad. Don't skimp on the cleaning. Clean it twice, then clean it again. Use a toothbrush and scrub it good... mike are there places that rent tweezer-style desoldering stations? Ot you could just make a copper "U" tip for the job. a piece of copper water pipe,nice and thick,screwed to the iron,one that uses a 6-32 threaded tip. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#11
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
On 18 Feb, 04:56, "Michael Kennedy"
wrote: "Smeghead" wrote in message ... On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote : Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into theTDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ Mike Thanks Guys, I did the googling and found Simple Green and as you all expected it is available here in the UK and the web info is good; I'll get some ASAP. Thanks for info on pcb cleaning. I will read more & several times to get the sequence right as I want to get it right. Jim and others, do you strip out a load of dud electrolytics, then clean pcb and replace them en-mass? or as I feel right now...a few at a time and try the pcb to see that I have not made matters worse / or accidentally got a wrong value in?? It is just that without a parts list or detailed schematics on the TDS 460 modules there seems to be ample opportunity if there a re approx 100 Cs to replace for me to screw up, and not to be able to cross check the work as I go. It would of course be great if the dodgy caps were all the same capacity and voltage, but I don't know if that applies yet. Thanks to those in the group for your replies. Mike K. |
#12
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Smeghead wrote in
: On 18 Feb, 04:56, "Michael Kennedy" wrote: "Smeghead" wrote in message . .. On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote s.com: Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into theTDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ Mike Thanks Guys, I did the googling and found Simple Green and as you all expected it is available here in the UK and the web info is good; I'll get some ASAP. Thanks for info on pcb cleaning. I will read more & several times to get the sequence right as I want to get it right. Jim and others, do you strip out a load of dud electrolytics, then clean pcb and replace them en-mass? or as I feel right now...a few at a time and try the pcb to see that I have not made matters worse / or accidentally got a wrong value in?? It is just that without a parts list or detailed schematics on the TDS 460 modules there seems to be ample opportunity if there a re approx 100 Cs to replace for me to screw up, and not to be able to cross check the work as I go. It would of course be great if the dodgy caps were all the same capacity and voltage, but I don't know if that applies yet. Thanks to those in the group for your replies. Mike K. you might as well do the entire board while you have it out,just do one area at a time,work slowly and carefully. Then clean/dry the entire board,re-inspect for reversed caps,solder bridges,etc. you could remove a few caps and measure their C,to be sure you have the right values. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#13
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Jim Yanik wrote:
Smeghead wrote in : On 18 Feb, 04:56, "Michael Kennedy" wrote: "Smeghead" wrote in message . .. On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote s.com: Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into theTDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ Mike Thanks Guys, I did the googling and found Simple Green and as you all expected it is available here in the UK and the web info is good; I'll get some ASAP. Thanks for info on pcb cleaning. I will read more & several times to get the sequence right as I want to get it right. Jim and others, do you strip out a load of dud electrolytics, then clean pcb and replace them en-mass? or as I feel right now...a few at a time and try the pcb to see that I have not made matters worse / or accidentally got a wrong value in?? It is just that without a parts list or detailed schematics on the TDS 460 modules there seems to be ample opportunity if there a re approx 100 Cs to replace for me to screw up, and not to be able to cross check the work as I go. It would of course be great if the dodgy caps were all the same capacity and voltage, but I don't know if that applies yet. Thanks to those in the group for your replies. Mike K. you might as well do the entire board while you have it out,just do one area at a time,work slowly and carefully. Then clean/dry the entire board,re-inspect for reversed caps,solder bridges,etc. you could remove a few caps and measure their C,to be sure you have the right values. Do it all at once. Take a picture and circle the different types differently. As I recall, you can use the same cap value everywhere if you use the big capacitance and the highest voltage. 47uF 25V is what I remember. You gotta CLEAN the board. Scrub the hell out of it several times. You don't want to go thru that more than once if you can help it. You're gonna be picking crusty corrosion from between pins of smt ic's. A good microscope helps. mike -- Return address is VALID! |
#14
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Help with Tektronix TDS 460 scope acquisition fault please
Jim Yanik wrote:
Smeghead wrote in : On 18 Feb, 04:56, "Michael Kennedy" wrote: "Smeghead" wrote in message . .. On Feb 17, 11:52 pm, Jim Yanik wrote: Smeghead wrote s.com: Many thanks again...it means I really must find the time to get the beast to bits and get the boards sorted. I also have a Tek 2235 and a 2215 both needing psu work ...maybe I should cut my teeth on those first before getting stuck into theTDS. those 2200s probably have bad electrolytics,too! (ESR) At least they are not SMD. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hi again Jim, Yes cheers for that and I will be more at home in the non SMD domain. Plus there is the luxury of good old Tek service manuals showing component level detail. . Can you enlighten me on the "Simple Green"? Is it a spray chemical from a can or a like a soap solution?? A www ref to an advert would be nice! Thanks Mike K. http://www.simplegreen.com/ Mike Thanks Guys, I did the googling and found Simple Green and as you all expected it is available here in the UK and the web info is good; I'll get some ASAP. Thanks for info on pcb cleaning. I will read more & several times to get the sequence right as I want to get it right. Jim and others, do you strip out a load of dud electrolytics, then clean pcb and replace them en-mass? or as I feel right now...a few at a time and try the pcb to see that I have not made matters worse / or accidentally got a wrong value in?? It is just that without a parts list or detailed schematics on the TDS 460 modules there seems to be ample opportunity if there a re approx 100 Cs to replace for me to screw up, and not to be able to cross check the work as I go. It would of course be great if the dodgy caps were all the same capacity and voltage, but I don't know if that applies yet. Thanks to those in the group for your replies. Mike K. you might as well do the entire board while you have it out,just do one area at a time,work slowly and carefully. Then clean/dry the entire board,re-inspect for reversed caps,solder bridges,etc. you could remove a few caps and measure their C,to be sure you have the right values. Do it all at once. Take a picture and circle the different types differently. As I recall, you can use the same cap value everywhere if you use the big capacitance and the highest voltage. 47uF 25V is what I remember. You gotta CLEAN the board. Scrub the hell out of it several times. You don't want to go thru that more than once if you can help it. You're gonna be picking crusty corrosion from between pins of smt ic's. A good microscope helps. mike -- Return address is VALID! |
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