Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default why 60-40 solder?

In article ,
mark krawczuk wrote:
and thats crap , i work in a company that uses exclusively 60-40 solder
and we ship weekly 3500 pcbs a week to the eu . where u get your info ?


Read this:-

http://www.intel.com/cd/network/connectivity/emea/eng/276569.htm?cid=emea:ggl|lad_emea_eng_rohs|k5E8C|s

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On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:48:09 +1030, "mark krawczuk"
wrote:

huh ????

that solder has 37 % lead in it.!!!!
and thats crap , i work in a company that uses exclusively 60-40 solder and
we ship weekly 3500 pcbs a week to the eu .
where u get your info ?



all
"mike" wrote in message news:MiI8j.79$TZ4.1@trnddc02...
wrote:
why is 63-37 eutectic solder not universally preferred?


Because you can't sell it in the EU if it's got lead in it.



It is illegal to produce boards with lead, just check the internet on
RoHS. It is allowed in military applications and some medical devices
as reliability is lower.

Regards,
Pieter
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Default why 60-40 solder?

In article ,
Pieter wrote:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:48:09 +1030, "mark krawczuk"
wrote:

huh ????

that solder has 37 % lead in it.!!!!
and thats crap , i work in a company that uses exclusively 60-40 solder and
we ship weekly 3500 pcbs a week to the eu .
where u get your info ?



all
"mike" wrote in message news:MiI8j.79$TZ4.1@trnddc02...
wrote:
why is 63-37 eutectic solder not universally preferred?

Because you can't sell it in the EU if it's got lead in it.



It is illegal to produce boards with lead, just check the internet on
RoHS. It is allowed in military applications and some medical devices
as reliability is lower.

Regards,
Pieter


Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.

As far as Mark's belated entry into this old thread, I assume he's
trolling.
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Default why 60-40 solder?

In message , Pieter
writes
It is illegal to produce boards with lead, just check the internet on
RoHS. It is allowed in military applications and some medical devices
as reliability is lower.

I think it's perfectly legal to rework boards using lead/tin solder if
the boards were originally produced with it and because of that you can
still buy led/tin rosin fluxed solder.

Regards,
Pieter


--
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Default why 60-40 solder?

Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.


Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.

--
B. Hussein Obama won't wear an American flag on his lapel, or put his hand over
his heart during the national anthem, but prominently displayed in his Houston
campaign office are TWO Cuban flags, each with a picture of Che Guevara
superimposed on it.
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Default why 60-40 solder?

In article ,
clifto wrote:

Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.


Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


ah-so. Apparently my confusion on this issue hasn't worn off yet.
*Somewhere* I thought I heard that consumer grade electronics had to be
RoHS compliant, but it might have been a dream...

I do know that California has some RoHS restrictions. I also know that
several of our customers who market globally require us to comply with
EU RoHS assembly standards so that they can market worldwide without
trying to keep track of which unit has lead and which one doesn't.

So it's likely that even stuff manufactured in the U.S., for sale in the
U.S., has the feared lead-free solder in it.
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Default why 60-40 solder?


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
clifto wrote:

Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.

Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


ah-so. Apparently my confusion on this issue hasn't worn off yet.
*Somewhere* I thought I heard that consumer grade electronics had to be
RoHS compliant, but it might have been a dream...

I do know that California has some RoHS restrictions. I also know that
several of our customers who market globally require us to comply with
EU RoHS assembly standards so that they can market worldwide without
trying to keep track of which unit has lead and which one doesn't.

So it's likely that even stuff manufactured in the U.S., for sale in the
U.S., has the feared lead-free solder in it.


I saw an article the other day that said that Arnie had personally blocked
some lead-restrictive potential legislation in his capacity as governor of
ca. Ah I've just found it. Don't know if it will make it through the
newsgroup server system, but here it is copied below ...

California vetoes ROHS-expansion bill
Edited by Suzanne Deffree -- EDN, 1/10/2008
California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has vetoed an assembly bill that
would have more closely aligned California’s ROHS
(restriction-of-hazardous-substances) law and regulations with the EU
(European Union) ROHS directive. The bill, AB 48, would have expanded
California ROHS to include all electrical and electronic equipment, as
opposed to its current requirements for “covered electronic devices,” which
include nine video-display devices that the state’s Department of Toxic
Substances Control regulations list. The bill also aimed to require that all
electrical and electronic equipment that manufacturers sell in California as
of Jan 1, 2010, comply with EU ROHS stipulations for lead, mercury, cadmium,
and hexavalent cadmium.

Schwarzenegger sent the bill back to the California legislature in the fall,
stating in a memo that the bill’s approach “is largely unworkable and
instead of the benefits it seeks to accomplish, could ultimately result in
unintended and potentially more harmful consequences.”

The governor noted the exemption language for spare parts and refurbished
products, claiming that, as written, the bill would make many electronic
products prematurely obsolete and force their retirement years earlier than
necessary. The California legislature is expected to try to pass this or a
similar bill again in 2008.




Arfa


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Default why 60-40 solder?

Showing that Arnold is not just another pretty face. Implementing RoHS
as mandated by the EU for solders may actually cause the release of greater
amounts of toxins into the environment than use of traditional lead-tin
alloys. There have been studies that address this issue, and the "benefit"
of EU-style RoHS is far from clear and certainly not unalloyed (pun intentional).

So EU-style RoHS regulation for solder:
1) results in poorer quality products
2) may actually worsen the environment relative to what would be with use of lead-tin
Sounds like typical politco-think. Jump too soon on some bandwagon because it sounds
good, then refuse to even look publically at the evidence that perhaps it was a mistake.
Just quietly grant exemptions to pressure groups with enough lobbying clout or soft
money ...

Politicians, Bah Humbug. (And, yes, I vote; not just complain.)


Arfa Daily wrote:
snippage

Schwarzenegger sent the bill back to the California legislature in the fall,
stating in a memo that the bill’s approach “is largely unworkable and
instead of the benefits it seeks to accomplish, could ultimately result in
unintended and potentially more harmful consequences.”

Arfa



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Default why 60-40 solder?

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:50:38 -0500, "Michael Kennedy"
wrote:

Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


As 99% of electronics that consumers buy originates in places other
than in the USA you'll end up with exactly the same Chinese, Korean
and Japanese crap that RoHS has forced on Europe, it might have some
RoHS components, it might have lead free solder but it will have what
the production plant has to hand and what stickers they have. You CAN
pay for proper quality control but it costs. Produce it within your
own borders and you might end up with something that will last, but on
the downside it will nearly always cost ten times as much as the
import.

It is impossible to get it through thick politicians heads that
solidly built equipment with 60/40 solder and replaced every 10-20
years is much better for the environment than stuff that barely makes
it into the consumers home before going completely tits up.

I'm still using the same amp and turntable I bought in 1980, the same
CD player I bought in 1987, the same main TV I bought in 1989 and the
same portable TV I bought in 1980. The VHS Video I bought in 1983 was
only recently retired with the purchase of a Digital Terrestrial Hard
Disc Recorder. I doubt it will last 10 years let alone 25.

Other than a few caps, the odd semi and a few dry joints, they haven't
really needed any major work. I reluctantly threw out a couple of
17" monitors last week - down the dump there was a huge pile of
discount shop brand TV's that looked at the most a couple of years
old.


--
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Default why 60-40 solder?

Kevin G. Rhoads wrote:
Showing that Arnold is not just another pretty face. Implementing RoHS
as mandated by the EU for solders may actually cause the release of greater
amounts of toxins into the environment than use of traditional lead-tin
alloys. There have been studies that address this issue, and the "benefit"
of EU-style RoHS is far from clear and certainly not unalloyed (pun intentional).

So EU-style RoHS regulation for solder:
1) results in poorer quality products
2) may actually worsen the environment relative to what would be with use of lead-tin
Sounds like typical politco-think. Jump too soon on some bandwagon because it sounds
good, then refuse to even look publically at the evidence that perhaps it was a mistake.
Just quietly grant exemptions to pressure groups with enough lobbying clout or soft
money ...

Politicians, Bah Humbug. (And, yes, I vote; not just complain.)


Arfa Daily wrote:
snippage
Schwarzenegger sent the bill back to the California legislature in the fall,
stating in a memo that the bill’s approach “is largely unworkable and
instead of the benefits it seeks to accomplish, could ultimately result in
unintended and potentially more harmful consequences.”

Arfa


Agree completely with the above. IMM, the problem is not lead content
of equipment in use, but what happens to it after useful life. I assume
the original intent of the legislation was the same, although I've not
followed either the issue or the thread till now.

In that vein, the greater issue is that there are so many things being
disposed of, and disposed of irresponsibly.

Were it the case, that consumer electronics were not so 'disposable',
the problem would be much less dire (if indeed it is so, even now). How
many of us here--who have sniffing solder fumes daily for 40 or more
years--have any significant amount of it in our systems? I would guess,
little more than the population as a whole.

If things were made to last and be repairable and/or upgradeable...and
finally *responsibly* disposable/recyclable; we wouldn't be in this pickle.

jak
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On Feb 18, 5:11*pm, clifto wrote:
Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.


Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.

Tim.
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"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Kevin G. Rhoads wrote:
Showing that Arnold is not just another pretty face. Implementing RoHS
as mandated by the EU for solders may actually cause the release of
greater amounts of toxins into the environment than use of traditional
lead-tin
alloys. There have been studies that address this issue, and the
"benefit"
of EU-style RoHS is far from clear and certainly not unalloyed (pun
intentional).

So EU-style RoHS regulation for solder:
1) results in poorer quality products
2) may actually worsen the environment relative to what would be with use
of lead-tin
Sounds like typical politco-think. Jump too soon on some bandwagon
because it sounds
good, then refuse to even look publically at the evidence that perhaps it
was a mistake.
Just quietly grant exemptions to pressure groups with enough lobbying
clout or soft
money ...

Politicians, Bah Humbug. (And, yes, I vote; not just complain.)


Arfa Daily wrote:
snippage
Schwarzenegger sent the bill back to the California legislature in the
fall,
stating in a memo that the bill’s approach “is largely unworkable and
instead of the benefits it seeks to accomplish, could ultimately result
in
unintended and potentially more harmful consequences.”

Arfa


Agree completely with the above. IMM, the problem is not lead content of
equipment in use, but what happens to it after useful life. I assume the
original intent of the legislation was the same, although I've not
followed either the issue or the thread till now.

In that vein, the greater issue is that there are so many things being
disposed of, and disposed of irresponsibly.

Were it the case, that consumer electronics were not so 'disposable', the
problem would be much less dire (if indeed it is so, even now). How many
of us here--who have sniffing solder fumes daily for 40 or more
years--have any significant amount of it in our systems? I would guess,
little more than the population as a whole.

If things were made to last and be repairable and/or upgradeable...and
finally *responsibly* disposable/recyclable; we wouldn't be in this
pickle.

jak


Ah, but thats not how the world thinks these days.. Especailly in America.
People want new stuff all the time. Look at cell phones and TVs. I hear in
parts of the country people throw away perfectly good CRT TVs because they
are not thin and flat!?!? I wish I could get my hands on a nice 32-36" CRT
TV that someone is upgrading. I don't like these new display types because
they are almost all Wide screen and therefore distort the picture or have
huge bars on each side of the screen. The picture quality increase of HDTV
is neglible from a sutiable viewing distance unless of course you are using
it as a computer monitor.

Mike


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"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
...
On Feb 18, 5:11 pm, clifto wrote:
Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.


Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.


Tim.


Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike




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"Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:50:38 -0500, "Michael Kennedy"
wrote:

Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


As 99% of electronics that consumers buy originates in places other
than in the USA you'll end up with exactly the same Chinese, Korean
and Japanese crap that RoHS has forced on Europe, it might have some
RoHS components, it might have lead free solder but it will have what
the production plant has to hand and what stickers they have. You CAN
pay for proper quality control but it costs. Produce it within your
own borders and you might end up with something that will last, but on
the downside it will nearly always cost ten times as much as the
import.

It is impossible to get it through thick politicians heads that
solidly built equipment with 60/40 solder and replaced every 10-20
years is much better for the environment than stuff that barely makes
it into the consumers home before going completely tits up.


This is my current problem, I need to get a new tv. I don't think I can make
my old 1988 Sylvania 28" run much longer. The tube is getting weak. But I
don't want to spend $800 on a TV that will last 3 years die and be un
servicable.

Mike


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Default why 60-40 solder?

Michael Kennedy wrote:
snip

I wish I could get my hands on a nice 32-36" CRT
TV that someone is upgrading. I don't like these new display types because
they are almost all Wide screen and therefore distort the picture or have
huge bars on each side of the screen. The picture quality increase of HDTV
is neglible from a sutiable viewing distance unless of course you are using
it as a computer monitor.

Agree about HD quality. In any case, it's only as good as the source,
and my cable system introduces some pretty serious artifacts and noise
into the analog line. Digital might be better if I had it. IMO,
everyday HD, when I've seen it, has been distinctly underwhelming. I've
seen some HD monitors, connected directly to the source--which were
almost stunning.

Check your local Craigslist for CRT monitors and TV's. I see them every
day...especially the big ones. Take along a couple of friends if you
find one, however. They are HEAVY!

jak
Mike


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Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
...
On Feb 18, 5:11 pm, clifto wrote:
Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.
Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.

Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.


Tim.


Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.

jak

Mike


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In article ,
jakdedert wrote:
Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
jakdedert wrote:
Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.


Actually, it's been posited that the use of lead plumbing was one of the
causes of the decline of the Roman Empire. That's just a story I've
heard, and upon what I based my opinion. The truth of it, and the
chemical reaction involved is beyond my experience.

jak


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Default why 60-40 solder?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
jakdedert wrote:
Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

Look up lead solubility in water and you will find some interesting
papers. The type of chlorination has a big effect on the solubility
of lead. There are other factors about what is in the pipes and
water. Your best hope is that the scale stays Pb++ and that the lead
get covered.

Lead from the pipes showed up as a problem for the Romans.
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"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Michael Kennedy wrote:
snip

I wish I could get my hands on a nice 32-36" CRT TV that someone is
upgrading. I don't like these new display types because they are almost
all Wide screen and therefore distort the picture or have huge bars on
each side of the screen. The picture quality increase of HDTV is
neglible from a sutiable viewing distance unless of course you are using
it as a computer monitor.

Agree about HD quality. In any case, it's only as good as the source, and
my cable system introduces some pretty serious artifacts and noise into
the analog line. Digital might be better if I had it. IMO, everyday HD,
when I've seen it, has been distinctly underwhelming. I've seen some HD
monitors, connected directly to the source--which were almost stunning.

Check your local Craigslist for CRT monitors and TV's. I see them every
day...especially the big ones. Take along a couple of friends if you find
one, however. They are HEAVY!

jak
Mike

On a recent trip to Vegas, I called into the Sony shop in Caesar's mall, to
have a look at the latest offerings and see if they were any different your
side of the pond. There was a huge - 42 maybe even bigger - LCD screen
running HD from a Blu Ray DVD player, and for the very first time with any
flat screen that I've seen, I have to say that it was absolutely stunning.
It was like looking at the very best quality cinema display. It was actually
showing a clip from Pirates 3. But the problem is that whilst these
digitally created and displayed pictures are lovely at native resolution,
when you try to watch 'normal' broadcast TV on them, they look perfectly
dreadful. I don't know about over there, but here, at the moment, there is
little 'broadcast' HD, so if you want to see such a TV working at its best,
then it's got to be, for the most part, from an HD video source. For mainly
this reason, I am currently sticking with my 34" CRT Tosh, which gives a
pretty much faultless display on any content. I am looking forward to SED
screens becoming commercially available, as I have read that these give the
best of both worlds, with an extremely 'CRT-like' picture.

Arfa


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"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message
. ..

"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
...
On Feb 18, 5:11 pm, clifto wrote:
Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent regulations.
AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for sale in the U.S.
may still use leaded solder.


Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded solder
here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.


Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.


For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.


Tim.


Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike

Many old houses over here still have lead pipework feeding them with water.
Certainly, the house that I lived in and drank the water in for many years
as a kid, had lead pipes. Leaded solder was banned here some years ago for
'open' pipework systems, but as far as I know, there was no such restriction
for 'closed' systems such as central heating. Lead is not soluble in water
anyway, so I see no reason that water passing through lead pipes, let alone
just moving past leaded solder joints, should become contaminated. I have a
friend who is a plumber, and he told me that it is very much harder to get a
guaranteed good joint first time, with lead-free solder, due to the very odd
melting and re-solidifying characteristics that it has.

Arfa


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Default why 60-40 solder?


"Clint Sharp" wrote in message
...
In message , Pieter
writes
It is illegal to produce boards with lead, just check the internet on
RoHS. It is allowed in military applications and some medical devices
as reliability is lower.

I think it's perfectly legal to rework boards using lead/tin solder if the
boards were originally produced with it and because of that you can still
buy led/tin rosin fluxed solder.


Absolutely correct. You can actually legally rework a lead-free board using
standard leaded solder, if the item was placed on the market before July
2006, although some experts warn specifically against this practice,
claiming that mixing unleaded and leaded solder leads to an even more
potentially unreliable joint, than lead-free alone ...

Arfa


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"none" ""doug\"@(none)" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
jakdedert wrote:
Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

Look up lead solubility in water and you will find some interesting
papers. The type of chlorination has a big effect on the solubility
of lead. There are other factors about what is in the pipes and
water. Your best hope is that the scale stays Pb++ and that the lead
get covered.

Lead from the pipes showed up as a problem for the Romans.


It is a good thing that lead was removed from pipes being that I have
experienced lead soldered joints (Poss not sweated properly too) dissolving
and leaking and usually in easy inaccessible places, I have also experienced
lead soldered copper pipes in refrigerators where the solder has totally
"Dissolved" to just a paste (It were used in older refrigerators to act as a
heat exchanger for the gas to and from the evaporator to improve efficiency)
so I am sure it can and often does leak into the water system. That as well
as the availability of cheaper higher temp brazing equipment and cheaper
silver solder (Often without flux required) available providing better and
more permanent joints is a better and safer alternative.
Justy




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"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:


"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message
. ..

"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
..
. On Feb 18, 5:11 pm, clifto wrote:
Michael Kennedy wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote...
Let's be clear that the United States has less stringent
regulations. AIUI, commercial (as opposed to consumer) boards for
sale in the U.S. may still use leaded solder.

Hmm.. I didn't realize that there were any regulations on leaded
solder here
in the USA. I just thought we got consumer grade crap that was
manufactured
for sale in the EU that happens to be ROHS compliant.

Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the
USA so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar
recycled home- electronics business.


For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.


Tim.


Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike

Many old houses over here still have lead pipework feeding them with
water. Certainly, the house that I lived in and drank the water in for
many years as a kid, had lead pipes. Leaded solder was banned here some
years ago for 'open' pipework systems, but as far as I know, there was
no such restriction for 'closed' systems such as central heating. Lead
is not soluble in water anyway,

.....
http://www.lenntech.com/elements-and...-and-water.htm
[quote]
Under normal conditions lead does not react with water. However, when lead
comes in contact with moist air reactivity with water increases. A small
lead oxide (PbO) layer forms at the surface of the metal. When both oxygen
and water are present, metallic lead is converted to lead hydroxide (Pb(OH)
2)
[unquote]

Some other interesting info in the above cited article.















--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
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jakdedert wrote:

Actually, it's been posited that the use of lead plumbing was one of the
causes of the decline of the Roman Empire. That's just a story I've
heard, and upon what I based my opinion. The truth of it, and the
chemical reaction involved is beyond my experience.

jak



It wasn't lead pipes, it was 'Lead Acetate', a toxic sweetener made
from lead:

http://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+of+lead&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

jakdedert wrote:

Actually, it's been posited that the use of lead plumbing was one of the
causes of the decline of the Roman Empire. That's just a story I've
heard, and upon what I based my opinion. The truth of it, and the
chemical reaction involved is beyond my experience.

jak




It wasn't lead pipes, it was 'Lead Acetate', a toxic sweetener made
from lead:


snip

Wasn't there also a problem with lead-based face makeup both in Rome and
also until modern times?

Michael
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It wasn't lead pipes, it was "Lead Acetate", a toxic sweetener
made from lead.


Wasn't there also a problem with lead-based face makeup both
in Rome and also until modern times?


What about lead water pipes?

I've seen an ad from the '20s, from the Lead Institute (or something like
that), proclaiming how wonderful it was that the Roman Empire distributed
water through lead pipes!


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William Sommerwerck wrote:
It wasn't lead pipes, it was "Lead Acetate", a toxic sweetener
made from lead.


Wasn't there also a problem with lead-based face makeup both
in Rome and also until modern times?


What about lead water pipes?

I've seen an ad from the '20s, from the Lead Institute (or something like
that), proclaiming how wonderful it was that the Roman Empire distributed
water through lead pipes!


Location:Netherlandds.
Until last year I had a lead pipe between the
street main feed and my water meter(copper pipe inside).
When the pipe was replaced, there was 1.5 mm deposit inside
the old pipe, and no possible access to the lead pipe.
But of course we do not chlorinate our water supply, and
the water is always moderately hard(and very tasty).
So we can safely drink it without gagging, and without
lead and chlorine poisoning.


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In article ,
Sjouke Burry wrote:
I've seen an ad from the '20s, from the Lead Institute (or something like
that), proclaiming how wonderful it was that the Roman Empire distributed
water through lead pipes!


Location:Netherlandds.
Until last year I had a lead pipe between the
street main feed and my water meter(copper pipe inside).
When the pipe was replaced, there was 1.5 mm deposit inside
the old pipe, and no possible access to the lead pipe.
But of course we do not chlorinate our water supply, and
the water is always moderately hard(and very tasty).
So we can safely drink it without gagging, and without
lead and chlorine poisoning.


I replaced some lead pipe in my parent's house some time ago - it is in a
very soft water area. Out of curiosity I sectioned it and looked at it
carefully. The original tooling marks - presumably where the pipe was
formed by forcing through a die - was still clear and defined. In other
words no signs of erosion in over 100 years.

--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Sjouke Burry wrote:
I've seen an ad from the '20s, from the Lead Institute (or something
like
that), proclaiming how wonderful it was that the Roman Empire
distributed
water through lead pipes!


Location:Netherlandds.
Until last year I had a lead pipe between the
street main feed and my water meter(copper pipe inside).
When the pipe was replaced, there was 1.5 mm deposit inside
the old pipe, and no possible access to the lead pipe.
But of course we do not chlorinate our water supply, and
the water is always moderately hard(and very tasty).
So we can safely drink it without gagging, and without
lead and chlorine poisoning.


I replaced some lead pipe in my parent's house some time ago - it is in a
very soft water area. Out of curiosity I sectioned it and looked at it
carefully. The original tooling marks - presumably where the pipe was
formed by forcing through a die - was still clear and defined. In other
words no signs of erosion in over 100 years.


As we'd probably expect, Dave ... ;-)

Arfa


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jakdedert writes:

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


jak


Mike


before chlorination or fluoridation, lead from pipe was insignifant as
the lead doesn't dissolve in pH neutral water. Probably get more from the
brass in the hot water fittings and faucets.

However, if the pH is acidic, you have a serious problem. I just had to put
in a $250k pH control system in a tiny (80 customers) water system I run
to raise the pH to slightly alkaline (about 8).

Steve.
--
Steven D. Swift, , http://www.novatech-instr.com
NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. P.O. Box 55997
206.301.8986, fax 206.363.4367 Seattle, Washington 98155 USA

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On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:18:15 -0600, jakdedert
wrote:
Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.


It certainlty makes more sense than banning it in electronics. All
electronics gets recycled nowadays. And we don't eat it.

When all lead in electronics is banned, we will have saved 0.14% of
the world lead usage.

I live in europe. You will follow with leadfree electronics sooner or
later. And then you will follow this too:

Since Januar 1st 2008 In Germany it is forbidden to drive older cars
in certain cities. Diesels must be from 2001+, gasoline must also be
reasonably new. In the Netherlands, Amsterdam is going to follow this
too. And I am sure other countries will follow. And the area will
expand from city-centres to whole cuties, then whole countries.
Meaning that we all will have to drive very new cars.

The reason behind this is that newer cars follow the newest
environment requirements.

About the plumbing: it is adviced over here that when you live in a
house with old plumbing (whats in a name), it is best to let (in the
morning) the water run for 10 seconds or more first so the piping
contains new water. Very small amounts of lead may leak into the
water, giving high levels of lead. Especially for children this is not
good.

Pieter
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