I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om.pdf

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


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"BOB Urz" wrote ...
I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it,

You can't measure (or observe) the one on the other side?

Richard Crowley wrote:

"BOB Urz" wrote ...
I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it,

You can't measure (or observe) the one on the other side?

While not quite symmetric, the other channels crossovers coil is
burnt worse than the one i am looking at now. So, no chance
for a good part measurement.

Bob



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"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in message

Richard Crowley wrote:

"BOB Urz" wrote ...
I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover
for a 6.5" car unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it,

You can't measure (or observe) the one on the other side?

While not quite symmetric, the other channels crossovers
coil is burnt worse than the one i am looking at now. So, no
chance for a good part measurement.

How badly burnt?

I've seen some pretty ugly messes based on an heavy-gauge wire choke that
was still OK.

For openers, unless they were burnt open or fused, I'd measure both coils
and see if they still measure the same.

On a really bad day, wind up a coil of the same gauge wire and same number
of turns in the same form factor and measure it.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:36:48 -0600, BOB Urz "sound"@(remove)
inetnebr.com wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om.pdf

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


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I would be rather concerned about what actually caused the inductor/s
to be cooked so badly. Assuming you managed to replace them and get it
going again, what's to say that the owner is not going to repeat the
exercise?

He would have to be driving these things extremely hard to cause the
burnouts so perhaps they are not matched to his amps power output and
speakers correctly or he is running both amp and speakers into severe
overload. In this case I would suspect that the speakers aren't in too
good a shape either.

Ross Herbert wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:36:48 -0600, BOB Urz "sound"@(remove)
inetnebr.com wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om.pdf

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


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I would be rather concerned about what actually caused the inductor/s
to be cooked so badly. Assuming you managed to replace them and get it
going again, what's to say that the owner is not going to repeat the
exercise?

He would have to be driving these things extremely hard to cause the
burnouts so perhaps they are not matched to his amps power output and
speakers correctly or he is running both amp and speakers into severe
overload. In this case I would suspect that the speakers aren't in too
good a shape either.

The drivers are intact. Yes, i believe they were driven hard.
But i am not the sound police. Only the repair man.
So he wants the crossovers fixed and i will fix them if i can.
But if he fry's them again its on his dime. I didn't design them
and did not overdrive them.

Bob


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Arny Krueger wrote:

"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in message

Richard Crowley wrote:

"BOB Urz" wrote ...
I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover
for a 6.5" car unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it,

You can't measure (or observe) the one on the other side?

While not quite symmetric, the other channels crossovers
coil is burnt worse than the one i am looking at now. So, no
chance for a good part measurement.

How badly burnt?

I've seen some pretty ugly messes based on an heavy-gauge wire choke that
was still OK.

For openers, unless they were burnt open or fused, I'd measure both coils
and see if they still measure the same.

On a really bad day, wind up a coil of the same gauge wire and same number
of turns in the same form factor and measure it.

Given unlimited time and doing it for the sake of doing it, the coil
could be rewound by determining the size of wire, buying a spool,
counting the turns of the old coil and trying to duplicate it.

Its an exercise in wasting a lot of time. I just need to get a value
and throw in another coil. Preferably, of a bigger wire size so
it might be more robust. (my guess is 20g on this one)

When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you can about
guarantee some turns are shorted.

Bob



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On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:14:01 -0600, BOB Urz "sound"@(remove)
inetnebr.com wrote:

I would be rather concerned about what actually caused the inductor/s
to be cooked so badly. Assuming you managed to replace them and get it
going again, what's to say that the owner is not going to repeat the
exercise?

He would have to be driving these things extremely hard to cause the
burnouts so perhaps they are not matched to his amps power output and
speakers correctly or he is running both amp and speakers into severe
overload. In this case I would suspect that the speakers aren't in too
good a shape either.

The drivers are intact. Yes, i believe they were driven hard.
But i am not the sound police. Only the repair man.
So he wants the crossovers fixed and i will fix them if i can.
But if he fry's them again its on his dime. I didn't design them
and did not overdrive them.

Bob



I entirely agree Bob. I was trying to intimate that perhaps along with
carrying out the wishes of the owner to repair these things, that a
little education might be needed to avoid a repeat. If he doesn't want
to heed your warnings, then sure, repair them as often as needed -
it's his money he's burning.

The only caution with this procedure may be that when his speakers (or
the amps) eventually do clap out he may try to blame you for their
demise by saying you can't possibly have repaired the x-overs
correctly because they hadn't died at the time the x-over first
failed, so why should they have died after you repaired them. You
can't reason with some people.

"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in message


When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.

That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a shorted-turn test,
you still think they are too far gone to be worth measuring?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in message



When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a shorted-turn test,
you still think they are too far gone to be worth measuring?



You DON'T understand Arny. Rings are GOOD on the sencore test. Low ring
count or NO ring count means the coil is shorted.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5717338.html

This coil would show NO rings on the inductor ring test. Its shorted.
If its shorted, the measured value of inductance is not going to be
accurate.

The ultimate solution is use the crossover circuit topography with the
listed value of caps and known crossover point (3500hz) and use algebra
to solve for the inductor value (solve for one unknown). I have been too
busy to try to figure that out. I also don't know why the tear sheets
says its a 24db filter, when the hand drawn schematic from the crossover
does not show that. It would need another inductor for that.
With two caps and a inductor, it appears to be a 3rd order.

I have barely a few hours in the shop before i have to head off to set
up for Jeff Daniel's and do FOH sound for two shows today.

Maybe someone with a lot of time on there hands can ID the filter from
the ascii drawing, and find the math to reverse engineer the inductor
value. There's a challenge for you Arny if your up to it.

I am guessing its in the .13 range at this point.

Bob

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Bob Urz wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:
"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in message



When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a shorted-turn
test, you still think they are too far gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny. Rings are GOOD on the sencore test. Low ring
count or NO ring count means the coil is shorted.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5717338.html

This coil would show NO rings on the inductor ring test. Its shorted.
If its shorted, the measured value of inductance is not going to be
accurate.

The ultimate solution is use the crossover circuit topography with the
listed value of caps and known crossover point (3500hz) and use algebra
to solve for the inductor value (solve for one unknown). I have been too
busy to try to figure that out. I also don't know why the tear sheets
says its a 24db filter, when the hand drawn schematic from the crossover
does not show that. It would need another inductor for that.
With two caps and a inductor, it appears to be a 3rd order.

I have barely a few hours in the shop before i have to head off to set
up for Jeff Daniel's and do FOH sound for two shows today.

Maybe someone with a lot of time on there hands can ID the filter from
the ascii drawing, and find the math to reverse engineer the inductor
value. There's a challenge for you Arny if your up to it.

I am guessing its in the .13 range at this point.

Bob

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Consider that the speaker driver acoustic roll off may supply one pole.

"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message


When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a
shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far gone
to be worth measuring?

You DON'T understand Arny.

Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a way that would only
be meaningful to someone who had experience with a specific piece of fairly
esoteric test equipment.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message


When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.

That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a
shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far gone
to be worth measuring?

You DON'T understand Arny.

Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a way that would only
be meaningful to someone who had experience with a specific piece of fairly
esoteric test equipment.


Just because most people have never heard of it, doesn't make it esoteric!
Now an Agilent E4980A LCR Meter at $15,000 that's esoteric.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message



When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore, you
can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a
shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far gone
to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a way that would only
be meaningful to someone who had experience with a specific piece of fairly
esoteric test equipment.



Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about guarantees a
shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't know about ringers), says
it appears to be contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew
something about ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self
contradictory". If you did no know what a ringer or ring test on a coil
was, goggle was a few key strokes away.

The proper response would have been, I don't know about how ring tests
work. Can you tell me how or supply a link? (which i eventually did).
I am milady surprise with your wide knowledge base you did not know
how a basic piece of electronic test gear works



I see you have not took up my challenge to reverse engineer the coils
values. Guess your not up for a challenge today.


bob

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"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message



When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a
shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric test
equipment.

Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't know about
ringers), says it appears to be contradictory. So, you obviously thought
you knew something about ringers to make your statement "that
appears to be self contradictory".

I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never heard of a
shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said that the usage appeared to be
contrdictory for that reason.

Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer was is completely
false.


If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a few key strokes
away.

I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped up that was
obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message




When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass a
shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric test
equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't know about
ringers), says it appears to be contradictory. So, you obviously thought
you knew something about ringers to make your statement "that
appears to be self contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never heard of a
shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said that the usage appeared to be
contrdictory for that reason.

Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer was is completely
false.



If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a few key strokes
away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped up that was
obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".



Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.

Lets limit it down, add sencore

Results 1 - 10 of about 330 for coil ring sencore. (0.19 seconds)
ePanorama.net :: View topic - Infinity crossover coil value


or

Results 1 - 10 of about 349 for coil ringer sencore.

First rule of web searches is to play with the search terms until you
get the desired result.

Bob







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"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
First rule of web searches is to play with the search terms until you
get the desired result.

Which assumes you know what the desired result is. Arny was gracious enough
to admit he had never heard of a ring test, therefore could not be expected
to know. Now that may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence. :-)

MrT.

"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message




When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass
a shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric
test equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew something about
ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer
was is completely false.



If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped
up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".



Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.

Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems foreign to you Bob - hits
that are actually relevant to the topic.

By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that you can't determine
relevance of the hits received to your own topic.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
First rule of web searches is to play with the search
terms until you get the desired result.

Which assumes you know what the desired result is. Arny
was gracious enough to admit he had never heard of a ring
test, therefore could not be expected to know. Now that
may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence. :-)

You've got to remember that Bob is a disciple of the inestimable Phildo and
George, the bitter, often intoxicated trolls who continuously run down
AAPLS.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message




Arny Krueger wrote:



"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message





When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass
a shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric
test equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew something about
ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer
was is completely false.




If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped
up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".




Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.


Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems foreign to you Bob - hits
that are actually relevant to the topic.

By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that you can't determine
relevance of the hits received to your own topic.


Ok Arny. Your a smart guy RIght? You have used google before right?
And you know how to search for topics?

With the words "coil ring sencore", here are the hits (in order)

ePanorama.net :: View topic - Infinity crossover coil value
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are ...
http://www.epanorama.net/phpBB2/view...6188 9a9e3a5a
- 69k - Jan 20, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
Complete Flyback/IHVT Testing
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
secondary windings will never ring 10. The primary coil is usually the
.... This can be tested with a Sencore Z-. Meter. You first need to find
two separate ...
www.sencore.com/custsup/pdf/TT217.pdf - Similar pages
Sencore designs, builds, and markets electronic test instruments.
Sencore designs and manufactures electronic equipment for service and
repair ... number of cycles the inductor rings before reaching a preset
damping point. ...
www.sencore.com/products/lc103.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.sencore.com ]
Sencore
Sencore, Inc. Test Equipment / AC Power Management General or
Systemic ... all four failure modes, and complete coil tests for value
and shorted turns. ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL1857/index.cfm?mlc_id=1857&NOTRACK=1&pin_id=2345&prodID =315911
- 23k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
LC103 ReZolver In-Circuit Capacitor & Inductor Analyzer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Sencore Engineers have. empirically determined that any air core. or
ferrite core coil will ring at least. 10 times before decaying to less
than 25%, ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/LC103%20brochure-6956.pdf
- Similar pages
Method and apparatus for testing television yokes and flyback ...
Assignee:, Sencore, Inc. (Sioux Falls, SD). Primary Class: ... Each
capacitor will cause the coil 16 to ring at a different frequency. ...
www.freepatentsonline.com/3990002.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: Testing of Flyback (LOPT) Transformers
Another 10 turn coil is wound on the suspect flyback core anywhere it
will fit. ... Sencore and others sell test equipment that includes the
'ring test' or ...
www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html - 54k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]



You only had to go a couple of hits down to find information.
Hardly searching through 1000 of "irrelevant hits".
A computer literate person that claims to be such a audio
wealth of information should have been able to do this in
a couple of minutes.


Bob




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Bob Urz wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message




Arny Krueger wrote:



"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message





When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass
a shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric
test equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew something about
ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self
contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer
was is completely false.




If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped
up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".




Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.


Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems foreign to you Bob
- hits that are actually relevant to the topic.

By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that you can't
determine relevance of the hits received to your own topic.

Ok Arny. Your a smart guy RIght? You have used google before right?
And you know how to search for topics?

With the words "coil ring sencore", here are the hits (in order)

ePanorama.net :: View topic - Infinity crossover coil value
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are ...
http://www.epanorama.net/phpBB2/view...6188 9a9e3a5a
- 69k - Jan 20, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
Complete Flyback/IHVT Testing
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
secondary windings will never ring 10. The primary coil is usually the
... This can be tested with a Sencore Z-. Meter. You first need to find
two separate ...
www.sencore.com/custsup/pdf/TT217.pdf - Similar pages
Sencore designs, builds, and markets electronic test instruments.
Sencore designs and manufactures electronic equipment for service and
repair ... number of cycles the inductor rings before reaching a preset
damping point. ...
www.sencore.com/products/lc103.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.sencore.com ]
Sencore
Sencore, Inc. Test Equipment / AC Power Management General or
Systemic ... all four failure modes, and complete coil tests for value
and shorted turns. ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL1857/index.cfm?mlc_id=1857&NOTRACK=1&pin_id=2345&prodID =315911
- 23k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
LC103 ReZolver In-Circuit Capacitor & Inductor Analyzer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Sencore Engineers have. empirically determined that any air core. or
ferrite core coil will ring at least. 10 times before decaying to less
than 25%, ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/LC103%20brochure-6956.pdf
- Similar pages
Method and apparatus for testing television yokes and flyback ...
Assignee:, Sencore, Inc. (Sioux Falls, SD). Primary Class: ... Each
capacitor will cause the coil 16 to ring at a different frequency. ...
www.freepatentsonline.com/3990002.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: Testing of Flyback (LOPT) Transformers
Another 10 turn coil is wound on the suspect flyback core anywhere it
will fit. ... Sencore and others sell test equipment that includes the
'ring test' or ...
www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html - 54k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]



You only had to go a couple of hits down to find information.
Hardly searching through 1000 of "irrelevant hits".
A computer literate person that claims to be such a audio
wealth of information should have been able to do this in
a couple of minutes.


Bob




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Bob, if in your first usage, you had said "using the Sencore ring test"
we would not be having this discussion. I think of a Sencore as an
old multi-meter. I had no idea that Sencore had a special coil test. To
me rings out is an old telephone term.

In article , wrote:
I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob

Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg

Speedskater wrote:

Bob Urz wrote:



Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message




Arny Krueger wrote:



"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message





When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.



That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass
a shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?



You DON'T understand Arny.



Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric
test equipment.



Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew something about
ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self
contradictory".



I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer
was is completely false.




If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.



I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped
up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".




Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.



Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems foreign to you Bob
- hits that are actually relevant to the topic.

By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that you can't
determine relevance of the hits received to your own topic.

Ok Arny. Your a smart guy RIght? You have used google before right?
And you know how to search for topics?

With the words "coil ring sencore", here are the hits (in order)

ePanorama.net :: View topic - Infinity crossover coil value
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it
measures about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know
turns are ...
http://www.epanorama.net/phpBB2/view...6188 9a9e3a5a
- 69k - Jan 20, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
Complete Flyback/IHVT Testing
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
secondary windings will never ring 10. The primary coil is usually the
... This can be tested with a Sencore Z-. Meter. You first need to
find two separate ...
www.sencore.com/custsup/pdf/TT217.pdf - Similar pages
Sencore designs, builds, and markets electronic test instruments.
Sencore designs and manufactures electronic equipment for service and
repair ... number of cycles the inductor rings before reaching a
preset damping point. ...
www.sencore.com/products/lc103.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.sencore.com ]
Sencore
Sencore, Inc. Test Equipment / AC Power Management General or
Systemic ... all four failure modes, and complete coil tests for value
and shorted turns. ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL1857/index.cfm?mlc_id=1857&NOTRACK=1&pin_id=2345&prodID =315911
- 23k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
LC103 ReZolver In-Circuit Capacitor & Inductor Analyzer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Sencore Engineers have. empirically determined that any air core. or
ferrite core coil will ring at least. 10 times before decaying to less
than 25%, ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/LC103%20brochure-6956.pdf
- Similar pages
Method and apparatus for testing television yokes and flyback ...
Assignee:, Sencore, Inc. (Sioux Falls, SD). Primary Class: ... Each
capacitor will cause the coil 16 to ring at a different frequency. ...
www.freepatentsonline.com/3990002.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: Testing of Flyback (LOPT) Transformers
Another 10 turn coil is wound on the suspect flyback core anywhere it
will fit. ... Sencore and others sell test equipment that includes the
'ring test' or ...
www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html - 54k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]



You only had to go a couple of hits down to find information.
Hardly searching through 1000 of "irrelevant hits".
A computer literate person that claims to be such a audio
wealth of information should have been able to do this in
a couple of minutes.


Bob




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----


Bob, if in your first usage, you had said "using the Sencore ring test"
we would not be having this discussion. I think of a Sencore as an
old multi-meter. I had no idea that Sencore had a special coil test. To
me rings out is an old telephone term.

People still use the term "ring out" to test wiring. I did not start
this thread to be argumentative. Although any thread with Arny in it
seems to end up this way. Arny as the only one who seemed to not
know about what a coil ring test was and to make a bone about it.

Sencore is well known in the service industry for specialized service
test equipment. Anybody can google it or go to their web site for
further information.


What i originally said was:

"I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?"


So the words Sencore, coil, ring, test are all there. Just maybe not in
the order that Arny would like.

Why is it that all anybody wants to discuss is ring tests rather than
suitable coil replacement values?

When i get some time, i'll have to find the equations and try to solve
for the inductor value and get the closest standard value. That's what
this thread was all about.





Bob



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article , Speedskater wrote:
Bob Urz wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message




Arny Krueger wrote:



"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message





When i can get no rings out of them on the sencore,
you can about guarantee some turns are shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils pass
a shorted-turn test, you still think they are too far
gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post in a
way that would only be meaningful to someone who had
experience with a specific piece of fairly esoteric
test equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew something about
ringers to make your statement "that appears to be self
contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew what a ringer
was is completely false.




If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing popped
up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".




Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.


Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems foreign to you Bob
- hits that are actually relevant to the topic.

By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that you can't
determine relevance of the hits received to your own topic.

Ok Arny. Your a smart guy RIght? You have used google before right?
And you know how to search for topics?

With the words "coil ring sencore", here are the hits (in order)

ePanorama.net :: View topic - Infinity crossover coil value
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are ...

http://www.epanorama.net/phpBB2/view...ee9106188 9a9
e3a5a
- 69k - Jan 20, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
Complete Flyback/IHVT Testing
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
secondary windings will never ring 10. The primary coil is usually the
... This can be tested with a Sencore Z-. Meter. You first need to find
two separate ...
www.sencore.com/custsup/pdf/TT217.pdf - Similar pages
Sencore designs, builds, and markets electronic test instruments.
Sencore designs and manufactures electronic equipment for service and
repair ... number of cycles the inductor rings before reaching a preset
damping point. ...
www.sencore.com/products/lc103.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.sencore.com ]
Sencore
Sencore, Inc. Test Equipment / AC Power Management General or
Systemic ... all four failure modes, and complete coil tests for value
and shorted turns. ...

catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL1857/index.cfm?mlc_id=1857&NOTRACK=1&pin_id=2
345&prodID=315911
- 23k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]
LC103 ReZolver In-Circuit Capacitor & Inductor Analyzer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Sencore Engineers have. empirically determined that any air core. or
ferrite core coil will ring at least. 10 times before decaying to less
than 25%, ...
catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/LC103%20brochure-6956.pdf

- Similar pages
Method and apparatus for testing television yokes and flyback ...
Assignee:, Sencore, Inc. (Sioux Falls, SD). Primary Class: ... Each
capacitor will cause the coil 16 to ring at a different frequency. ...
www.freepatentsonline.com/3990002.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: Testing of Flyback (LOPT) Transformers
Another 10 turn coil is wound on the suspect flyback core anywhere it
will fit. ... Sencore and others sell test equipment that includes the
'ring test' or ...
www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html - 54k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF]



You only had to go a couple of hits down to find information.
Hardly searching through 1000 of "irrelevant hits".
A computer literate person that claims to be such a audio
wealth of information should have been able to do this in
a couple of minutes.


Bob




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Bob, if in your first usage, you had said "using the Sencore ring test"
we would not be having this discussion. I think of a Sencore as an
old multi-meter. I had no idea that Sencore had a special coil test. To
me rings out is an old telephone term.

To test coils and flyback, there is a common test. There is also
a modern device, really simple. A pulse generator connected to a scope.
That is a problem for me in testing coils. i don't usually have anything
set up to make sure the coils are not shorted. A driver would also have
problems with only a turn or two shorted. I saw nothing wrong with the way Bob
presented his case.

greg

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

First rule of web searches is to play with the search
terms until you get the desired result.

Which assumes you know what the desired result is. Arny
was gracious enough to admit he had never heard of a ring
test, therefore could not be expected to know. Now that
may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence. :-)


You've got to remember that Bob is a disciple of the inestimable Phildo and
George, the bitter, often intoxicated trolls who continuously run down
AAPLS.


What do Phildo and george have to do with this thread?
And this is NOT posted to AAPLS. Get your groups straight Arny.

And unlike those you mention, i actually fix things.

Simple technical question.
Who has the answer?
I guess you don't............


Bob

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

GregS wrote:

In article , wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg
The link i provided was found with a quick search.
I am guessing its that topology.
Some of the information seems to be conflicting.


What do you mean by measure R with the coil wound and unwound?

Bob


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Arny Krueger wrote:

You've got to remember that Bob is a disciple of the inestimable Phildo and
George

Is he ?

I thought he was smarter than that but I don't see his posts here since
Supernews filter his posts.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:


You've got to remember that Bob is a disciple of the inestimable Phildo and
George


Is he ?

I thought he was smarter than that but I don't see his posts here since
Supernews filter his posts.

Graham

Supernews filter my posts? Interesting.
Check google groups for a recap.

Is all about a crossover coil value question if you would like to help
Graham.

If you believe Arny, i got some swamp land.........



Bob


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message




Arny Krueger wrote:



"BOB Urz" "sound"@(remove) inetnebr.com wrote in
message





When i can get no rings out of them on the
sencore, you can about guarantee some turns are
shorted.


That appears to be self-contradictory.

Are you trying to saythat even though the coils
pass a shorted-turn test, you still think they are
too far gone to be worth measuring?


You DON'T understand Arny.


Right Bob I can't read your mind. You wrote a post
in a way that would only be meaningful to someone
who had experience with a specific piece of fairly
esoteric test equipment.


Well , lets see. I said i got no rings, and that about
guarantees a shorted turns. You (who obviously doesn't
know about ringers), says it appears to be
contradictory. So, you obviously thought you knew
something about ringers to make your statement "that
appears to be self contradictory".


I know that this will make your day Bob, but I've never
heard of a shorted-turn tester called a ringer. I said
that the usage appeared to be contrdictory for that
reason. Therefore your claim that I thought I knew
what a ringer was is completely false.




If you did no know
what a ringer or ring test on a coil was, goggle was a
few key strokes away.


I just googled "ringer shorted turn" and nothing
popped up that was obviously relevant in the first few pages.

Ditto for "ring test".




Humm Arny, your not as smart as i thought.

Google Marco search:
terms( coil ring test)
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for coil ring test.


Not what I said. I introduced a concept that seems
foreign to you Bob - hits that are actually relevant to
the topic. By citing all these irrelevant hits, you're showing that
you can't determine relevance of the hits received to
your own topic.
Ok Arny. Your a smart guy RIght? You have used google
before right? And you know how to search for topics?

With the words "coil ring sencore", here are the hits (in
order)

As usual Bob, you're being deceptive. I wasn't talking about the search
string "coil ring sencore".

If I didn't know anything about this type of equipment, how would I know
that Sencore would be a relevant word to use for searching google?

One other helpful tip for you Bob. I've repaired a lot of computers, radars,
and audio equipment, both pro and consumer. But, I've never ever fixed a TV
other than checking the tubes and replacing the ones that checked bad.

"Speedskater" wrote in message


Bob, if in your first usage, you had said "using the
Sencore ring test" we would not be having this
discussion.

Exactly.

I think of a Sencore as an old multi-meter.

One finds a lot of Sencore equipment in TV repair shops. I last spent any
time at all in a TV repair shop before I graduated from high school.

I had no idea that Sencore had a special coil test.

If I sat down and thought about it for a while, I'd figure out that Sencore
did have a flyback transformer tester in their product line, and that it
should have a shorted turn detector in it.

To me rings out is an old telephone term.

Agreed. It also has meaning in the context of live sound which is yet
another area where Bob likes to pretend that I'm an idiot.

In article , Bob Urz wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article , wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20om
.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg
The link i provided was found with a quick search.
I am guessing its that topology.
Some of the information seems to be conflicting.


What do you mean by measure R with the coil wound and unwound?

Bob

Unwinding removes the short. You may actually see where the short is, ir
may be welded together.

grge

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , Bob Urz
wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article , wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20o
m
.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg
The link i provided was found with a quick search.
I am guessing its that topology.
Some of the information seems to be conflicting.


What do you mean by measure R with the coil wound and unwound?

Bob

Unwinding removes the short. You may actually see where the short is, ir
may be welded together.

grge

It also determines the R total shorted, and unshorted.

greg

GregS wrote:

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , Bob Urz
wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article , wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output

http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%20o
m
.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg
The link i provided was found with a quick search.
I am guessing its that topology.
Some of the information seems to be conflicting.


What do you mean by measure R with the coil wound and unwound?

Bob

Unwinding removes the short. You may actually see where the short is, ir
may be welded together.

grge

It also determines the R total shorted, and unshorted.

greg

What good is R shorted or unshorted? I unwrapped the coil. It measured on the FLuke about
..2 either way. It was burnt down.
to the bottom layer(5 layers or so). And the coils bobbin (plastic)
was melted and deformed) Even with only one layer showing, it
still flunked the ring test.

Bob


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article , wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article ,
(GregS) wrote:
In article , Bob Urz

wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover for a 6.5" car
unit. Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).
Customer claims low tweeter output


http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%206-1%2
0o
m
.p
df

in:
(+)
-------|
|
== C=15.7ufd
| C=14ufd R=(1,2,4) OUTPUT
|------------][------------/\/\/\/\/\------|
|
L2 (burnt) |
*
(tweeter)
| *
| |
------------------------------------------------
(-) (-)

So, the input is a series cap inductor combination with a 15.7 MFD and
unknown coil in series with the amp. The center tap of the two feeds a
14MFD cap and then goes through a series resistor adjustable pad
to the tweeter. I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i know turns are
shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value of this coil?

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what the tear
sheets says.
Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

Bob


Plugging in the values, I seem to get slightly higher values of L1.
but not much. A crossover cannot be tested by itself. The
drivers also play into the crossover, also making poles and things.
I would try some real time values and listening test. the value should be
between .3 and .5 mh. If you could measure the R, unwind the coil,
and measure R, that might tell the extent of the damage.

greg
The link i provided was found with a quick search.
I am guessing its that topology.
Some of the information seems to be conflicting.


What do you mean by measure R with the coil wound and unwound?

Bob

Unwinding removes the short. You may actually see where the short is, ir
may be welded together.

grge

It also determines the R total shorted, and unshorted.

greg

What good is R shorted or unshorted? I unwrapped the coil. It measured on the
FLuke about
..2 either way. It was burnt down.
to the bottom layer(5 layers or so). And the coils bobbin (plastic)
was melted and deformed) Even with only one layer showing, it
still flunked the ring test.

I guess the short could be complex. I was trying to determine what persentage
of the wire was shorted. You have to wonder, what exactly is going on here.

I would not trust the amp or the tweeter. I would want to insert a fuse next
time.

greg

BOB Urz wrote:

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than what
the tear sheets says.

Nothing strange here, a 24 dB L-R filter can only be claimed implemented
if the acoustic output from the units actually have the proper acoustic
slopes when combined with the filter.

Bob


Regards

Peter Larsen

BOB Urz wrote:

I had a customer bring in an Infinity KPX00 crossover
for a 6.5" car unit.

Surely the customer has stereo in the car, so one avenue would be to ask
for the other cross-over as a source of comparison.

Coil L2 has burnt marks on it, Its a 24db linkquitz riley filter
(or so the spec sheet says).

OK. You know the target response, and implicitly it is the tweeter
cross-over slope this is about. Tweeter response is reasonably easy to
measure, so if you replace the coil with a guesstimate coil it is
possible to determine in what way the replacement coil is incorrect.

CALSOD comes with a lil' util called inductor.exe, it is quite possibly
not the only software on the planet for calculating inductors, and its
existence suggests that the4 coil geometry can get you a close estimate
of the inductance of the coil.

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than
what the tear sheets says.

It would be good design practice to design a cross-over that fits the
units so that the number of components can be reduced.

Only one coil on the high pass with two caps.
Minus the pad, it looks like the 3rd order 18 DB filter he

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

and these calculated 3500hz values are (4 ohm nominal)
C=7.5 ufd
L=0.1364 mh
C2=22.7

standard replacement coil values are .1,.13,.15,.20,.27,.33 and etc.

Thoughts?

You know the coil geometry, you know the wire diameter, it should be
possible to get an estimate of the lenght of wire in the coil. That
should make it possible to calculate a probable value for its
resistance. Determining the actual resistance and comparing may provide
correction data that can be used to convert the measured impedance of
the coil to what it should have been.

Bob


Regards

Peter Larsen

BOB Urz wrote:

Thoughts?

Passive network transfer function, as I understand it when loaded with
actual loudspeaker load, is available in the .pdf you linked to. A few
trial and error substitions should lead to the correct coil value. You
really have to verify that the units are OK anyway.

Bob


Regards

Peter Larsen

"Peter Larsen" wrote in
message
BOB Urz wrote:

Strange, this seems to be a 3rd order filter rather than
what the tear sheets says.

Nothing strange here, a 24 dB L-R filter can only be
claimed implemented if the acoustic output from the units
actually have the proper acoustic slopes when combined
with the filter.

Agreed. Furthermore, the crossover drives a reactive load, not a resistive
one.

So, the crossover is unlikely to have an 18 dB/octave response that its
electrical configuration suggests. I suspect that it drives the tweeter just
above its resonance, where the tweeter is more like a capactive load. The
14 uF cap is then acting a bit like a member of a series capacitive voltage
divider.

This nets out to more like a 12 dB/octave high pass filter, which would
combine with the 12 dB/octave high pass acoustic characteristic of the
tweeter to provide a 24 dB/octave filter.

Why is it that all anybody wants to discuss is ring tests rather than
suitable coil replacement values?

When i get some time, i'll have to find the equations and try to solve
for the inductor value and get the closest standard value. That's what
this thread was all about.





Bob

bob, are you sure the schematic you drew at the first post is correct? i
ask because i have found that tweeters usully have a series capacitor rather
then an inductor.

can you load the remaining portion of the crossover in such a way as to
determine the crossover frequency by sweeping with a signal generator?

"Bob Urz" wrote in message


People still use the term "ring out" to test wiring.

A crossover coil is not a telephone line.

I did not start this thread to be argumentative.

Can't change your basic nature, can you Bob?

As was pointed out, I tried to approach you in a tactful way, and you went
off on a tear.

Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message


" Arny was gracious enough to admit he had never heard of a ring
test, therefore could not be expected to know.
Now that may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence."

Although any thread with Arny in it seems to end up this way.

Nonesense Bob. I've had tens of thousands of pleasant interchanges with 100s
if not 1000s of people. The problem here is you and your bad attitude, which
is your fault, not mine.

In the next sentence you try to rekindle the argument, as you continue to
avoid taking responsibilitity for your own communication problems by blaming
me.

Arny as the only one who seemed to not know about what a coil ring test
was and to make a bone
about it.

Not true.

"Speedskater" wrote in message


"...most people have never heard of it..."

But thanks Bob for showing yourself to be a liar, as well as a person who
can't take responsibilty for his own actions.

Sencore is well known in the service industry for
specialized service test equipment.

So what? Over the years they've marketed 100s if not thousands of different
products. Their market is primarily the service industry, starting out with
radio and TV service.

Anybody can google it or go to their web site for further information.

Currently about 120 different products, none of which has the word "ring" in
its name.

What i originally said was:

"I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i
know turns are shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value
of this coil?"

Bob, you yourself admit that a ring test is primarily a test of
communication lines. Here's a news flash - communications lines use
inductors as loading coils. In the context of a speaker, this does not make
a lot of sense.

So the words Sencore, coil, ring, test are all there.

As stated they form a mystery, not a masterpiece of effective communication
skills.

Just maybe not in the order that Arny would like.

Here's some news flashes for you Bob - if you want help try not to write
mysteries, and when people try to treat you tactfully, don't spit on them.
I tried to treat you with kid gloves and here you are again gratuitously
attacking me. How Phildo-like of you.