Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?

In sci.electronics.design Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

You mean that it brightens the trace if it hits that risetime, or you
get a dot on the x axis?

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?


The MIL Stds require that all this field technical equipment and
accompanying documentation be accessible to anyone with an 8th grade
level of education. But even that might be unrealistic.

Ian Stirling wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Ancient_Hacker wrote:

Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.


You mean that it brightens the trace if it hits that risetime, or you
get a dot on the x axis?

He has to mean it puts a z-axis tick on the beam at the specified
intervals. The user is then relegated to counting ticks, and if they're
especially clever, they might even try inter-poh-lation to refine the
reading. Geez.

On 29 Mar 2006 05:40:30 -0800, "Ancient_Hacker"
wrote:

Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?

On the digital scopes, you press "measure" then "rise", and it
computes and displays it for you. Digital scope is to analog scope as
calculator is to slide rule.

John

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?

Avoiding creeping featuritis? I mean, I like a panel full of knobs and
switches better than most, but the feature has marginal utility IF you
trust your horizontal sweep.

I suspect the Waterman has it as a result of a real or imagined
distrust of horizontal sweep scale or linearity. For typical
instruments of that day, I don't blame them. The scales were more of a
suggestion than actual calibration if it wasn't a Tek or HP :-).

I think some Tek scope calibrators of the 50's/60's would have a Z-axis
output that showed pips for use in scope alignment.

Tim.

"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in
oups.com:

Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

How did you determine the 10% and 90% points on the test signal?
TEK's graticules were designed for easy risetime measurements.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?


Tek had an option for their 7704A that was an xtal-controlled time-mark
generator,but it wasn't very popular.

You could input your timemarks on channel 2,that's how we did some
calibrations for other instruments.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:00:52 GMT, Fred Bloggs
wrote:



Ian Stirling wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Ancient_Hacker wrote:

Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.


You mean that it brightens the trace if it hits that risetime, or you
get a dot on the x axis?

He has to mean it puts a z-axis tick on the beam at the specified
intervals. The user is then relegated to counting ticks, and if they're
especially clever, they might even try inter-poh-lation to refine the
reading. Geez.

I gues I'm somewhat confused as to how Waterman implemented that in
195?

Seems like the z- axis ticks would need to be synchronized with the
start of the horizontal sweep so the ticks wouldn't "crawl." I suppose
they could have used a triggered multivibrator, but I can't imagine a
technique like that being usably accurate without a lot of
complication. Sounds like an awful lot of tubes to make it really
work. Actually, I've never seen a Waterman scope with triggered sweep,
come to think of it.

I don't have the manual anymore but IIRC it didnt take much circuitry.
Your basic R-C blocking oscillator is more than happy to sync up to
anything. That only requires one tube.

It was probably a way of measuring time durations on a scope with
uncalibrated and not terribly linear sweep.

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
I don't have the manual anymore but IIRC it didnt take much circuitry.
Your basic R-C blocking oscillator is more than happy to sync up to
anything. That only requires one tube.

It was probably a way of measuring time durations on a scope with
uncalibrated and not terribly linear sweep.

I had a USN24C back in the early 70's and was sorry to lose it to a
shorted power transformer after only a few years of use. It was the
best I could afford back then.
Cheers, Hank

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Ian Stirling wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Ancient_Hacker wrote:

Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.


You mean that it brightens the trace if it hits that risetime, or you
get a dot on the x axis?

He has to mean it puts a z-axis tick on the beam at the specified
intervals. The user is then relegated to counting ticks, and if they're
especially clever, they might even try inter-poh-lation to refine the
reading. Geez.

IIRC, one of the modes of my Tektronix 545 scope uses a z-axis marker to
measure time. The 'tick' position is adjusted with a 10 turn pot.
setting multiplied by the B time base setting. Its not the same as what
JF described, but it does use an intensity marker.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bureaucrat, n.: A person who cuts red tape sideways. -- J. McCabe

A_H wrote: It was probably a way of measuring time durations on a scope
with
uncalibrated and not terribly linear sweep.

And of course, therein lies the reason others didn't bother.
Especially with graticule etched on the inside of the glass, it's as
easy to count division as brightness tics. Some later scopes also came
with very accurate time measurement capability, and with features like
delayed sweep that would let you superimpose two sections of the trace
and read out the delay time directly.

Cheers,
Tom

"Tom Bruhns" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some later scopes also came
with very accurate time measurement capability, and with features like
delayed sweep that would let you superimpose two sections of the trace
and read out the delay time directly.

Speaking of fancy old-school oscilloscope features... the old Tek analog
scopes (e.g., 2465) that actually had *on-screen text read-out* of
measurements such as time, frequency, etc... weren't those things designed
back in the '70s and early '80s? And as such didn't they probably need some
paper sheet-sized board full of tons of digital logic DIP ICs, PROMs, some
CPU, etc. to pull off such a task? And did they add a dedicated electron gun
for writing the text, or just update it inbetween sweeps? Mighty
impressive...

We've got an HP 8594 spectrum analyzer kicking around the office that weighs a
ton but has built-in BASIC and will let an externally GPIB-connected
peripheral (e.g., a PC) draw directly on the screen using a subset of HPGL
commands; also rather impressive given its vintage.

---Joel Kolstad

On forgotten scope features:

Some time ago, I had a "hobby - grade" scope in the office fitted with
an Y output.
Very convenient, one could connect e.g. a counter, and use the scope
as a pre-amp.
I usually connected a simple amp with a speaker. It is amazing what an
"audio track" can reveal when doing measurements in a prototype.

When measuring datalines on a processor board, you could actually
*hear* the software processes going by, and hear the system hang after
a visible & audible glitch somewhere.

Also great in repairing audio systems - seeing and hearing a
measurement was extremely revealing. Incoherent waveforms might sound
very familiar.

My fancy Lecroy does not have this feature - I still miss
it...progress I guess.



--
- René

Joel Kolstad wrote:
"Tom Bruhns" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some later scopes also came
with very accurate time measurement capability, and with features like
delayed sweep that would let you superimpose two sections of the trace
and read out the delay time directly.

Speaking of fancy old-school oscilloscope features... the old Tek analog
scopes (e.g., 2465) that actually had *on-screen text read-out* of
measurements such as time, frequency, etc... weren't those things designed
back in the '70s and early '80s? And as such didn't they probably need some
paper sheet-sized board full of tons of digital logic DIP ICs, PROMs, some
CPU, etc. to pull off such a task? And did they add a dedicated electron gun
for writing the text, or just update it inbetween sweeps? Mighty
impressive...

Actually by the time of the 2465 (which I personally regard as a "new"
scope) good chunks of the functionality were handled by
microprocessors. Yeah, there are PROM's and a CPU and NVRAM etc. More
notably there are a couple of custom Tek chips.

What I think is impressive are the early-70's-vintage Tek plug-in
mainframes where there was no CPU but they did have on-screen readout.
There's a "bus" of sorts in the mainframe that modules can use to
communicate (via mostly analog levels and time-based multiplexing)
results (not just numeric values but very importantly scale) to the
character generator (made of a mix of standard analog+logic and custom
Tektronix analog-digital stuff) that puts them on-screen. These have
two distinct modes, one where the character writing interrupts normal
operation of the scope, and another where the character writing occurs
in the refractory period between sweeps.

The character generation/selection logic is filled with substantial
amounts of cleverness (a lot of it embedded in the Tek chips but the
time-division bus is really very clever in terms of compactness and
implementability) so that it does not fill sheet-sized PC boards but is
in fact rather compact.

For the ultimate in character-generation cleverness, witness the Tek
4010 and 4014 serial terminals, which use storage scope technology
every way you could ever imagine. They pioneered affordable computer
graphics terminals way before anyone else (there were some
stratospherically priced ones from other outfits). One gotcha: the
RC-controlled baud rate generator!

Tim.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
IIRC, one of the modes of my Tektronix 545 scope uses a z-axis marker to
measure time. The 'tick' position is adjusted with a 10 turn pot.
setting multiplied by the B time base setting. Its not the same as what
JF described, but it does use an intensity marker.

I think on later Tek scopes this mode was more generally called "A
Intensified by B".

I personally was usually confused by all the different modes possible
on a dual-timebase scope. Yeah, I made use of most of them at some
point or another, but it was never awfully intuitive (unlike most of
the other functions on an analog scope, where the knob I was turning
made perfect sense in relation to the change in display, to the point
where my fingers knew how to get me the display I wanted. A wonderful
feeling compared to hitting all the buttons on front of some of today's
digital scopes.)

Regarding my confusion: The tek dual-timebase scopes I used had that
funky dual-concentric timebase knob and 4 to 6 buttons for mode
selection. The confusion I get in using them is minor, though, compared
the confusion every time I look at the 140-button DVD remote control!
95% of the DVD remote buttons have zero on-screen effect when I press
them! How am I ever supposed to figure out what they do!

Tim.

wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
IIRC, one of the modes of my Tektronix 545 scope uses a z-axis marker to
measure time. The 'tick' position is adjusted with a 10 turn pot.
setting multiplied by the B time base setting. Its not the same as what
JF described, but it does use an intensity marker.

I think on later Tek scopes this mode was more generally called "A
Intensified by B".

Or 'B intensified by A'.

I personally was usually confused by all the different modes possible
on a dual-timebase scope. Yeah, I made use of most of them at some
point or another, but it was never awfully intuitive (unlike most of
the other functions on an analog scope, where the knob I was turning
made perfect sense in relation to the change in display, to the point
where my fingers knew how to get me the display I wanted. A wonderful
feeling compared to hitting all the buttons on front of some of today's
digital scopes.)

Regarding my confusion: The tek dual-timebase scopes I used had that
funky dual-concentric timebase knob and 4 to 6 buttons for mode
selection. The confusion I get in using them is minor, though, compared
the confusion every time I look at the 140-button DVD remote control!
95% of the DVD remote buttons have zero on-screen effect when I press
them! How am I ever supposed to figure out what they do!

Somewhere in Montana, the cover on a missile silo is opening and closing
for no apparant reason.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Applying information technology is simply finding the right wrench
to pound in the correct screw.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:08:48 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

wrote:
(snip)

The confusion I get in using them is minor, though, compared
the confusion every time I look at the 140-button DVD remote control!
95% of the DVD remote buttons have zero on-screen effect when I press
them! How am I ever supposed to figure out what they do!

Somewhere in Montana, the cover on a missile silo is opening and closing
for no apparant reason.

My keyboard is very relieved that I wasn't drinking anything as I read that line
;-)

wrote:
Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Tom Bruhns" wrote in message
groups.com...

Some later scopes also came
with very accurate time measurement capability, and with features like
delayed sweep that would let you superimpose two sections of the trace
and read out the delay time directly.

Speaking of fancy old-school oscilloscope features... the old Tek analog
scopes (e.g., 2465) that actually had *on-screen text read-out* of
measurements such as time, frequency, etc... weren't those things designed
back in the '70s and early '80s? And as such didn't they probably need some
paper sheet-sized board full of tons of digital logic DIP ICs, PROMs, some
CPU, etc. to pull off such a task? And did they add a dedicated electron gun
for writing the text, or just update it inbetween sweeps? Mighty
impressive...


Actually by the time of the 2465 (which I personally regard as a "new"
scope) good chunks of the functionality were handled by
microprocessors. Yeah, there are PROM's and a CPU and NVRAM etc. More
notably there are a couple of custom Tek chips.

What I think is impressive are the early-70's-vintage Tek plug-in
mainframes where there was no CPU but they did have on-screen readout.
There's a "bus" of sorts in the mainframe that modules can use to
communicate (via mostly analog levels and time-based multiplexing)
results (not just numeric values but very importantly scale) to the
character generator (made of a mix of standard analog+logic and custom
Tektronix analog-digital stuff) that puts them on-screen. These have
two distinct modes, one where the character writing interrupts normal
operation of the scope, and another where the character writing occurs
in the refractory period between sweeps.

The character generation/selection logic is filled with substantial
amounts of cleverness (a lot of it embedded in the Tek chips but the
time-division bus is really very clever in terms of compactness and
implementability) so that it does not fill sheet-sized PC boards but is
in fact rather compact.

For the ultimate in character-generation cleverness, witness the Tek
4010 and 4014 serial terminals, which use storage scope technology
every way you could ever imagine. They pioneered affordable computer
graphics terminals way before anyone else (there were some
stratospherically priced ones from other outfits). One gotcha: the
RC-controlled baud rate generator!

Tim.

in my 7904s, the OSD board is smaller than A5. I'm far too lazy to pull
a cover off and measure it though

Cheers
Terry

John Larkin wrote:
On 29 Mar 2006 05:40:30 -0800, "Ancient_Hacker"
wrote:


Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?


On the digital scopes, you press "measure" then "rise", and it
computes and displays it for you. Digital scope is to analog scope as
calculator is to slide rule.

John

pish tosh. there are numerous jobs analogue scopes are better at than
digital scopes. Ballast, for example - my 7904s are excellent, but the
puny TDS224 weighs less than a wendys super-combo

Cheers
Terry

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:51 +1200, Terry Given wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On 29 Mar 2006 05:40:30 -0800, "Ancient_Hacker"
wrote:


Way back in the 1950's, Waterman came out with a scope, mil version was
the AN/USM-24C. A mediocre scope- AC coupled only, 5MHz bandwidth,
poor triggering, but it did have one really neat feature-- selectable
100/10/1/.5/.2 microsecond intensity markers. They made risetime
measurements incredibly easy-- much easier than the usual routine with
lining up the xy graticule lines. Plus they looked really keen-o.

I've never seen this feature on any other scope.
Any ideas why the big guys like Tek and HP didnt implement this
feature?


On the digital scopes, you press "measure" then "rise", and it
computes and displays it for you. Digital scope is to analog scope as
calculator is to slide rule.

John

pish tosh. there are numerous jobs analogue scopes are better at than
digital scopes. Ballast, for example - my 7904s are excellent, but the
puny TDS224 weighs less than a wendys super-combo

Cheers
Terry

I once had to use a waterproof military HP. The little waterproof rubber
seals around the knob shafts gave new meaning to the term "backlash." I
remarked to a coworker: "It wouldn't even be a good boat anchor - it'd
probably float!"

Cheers!
Rich