Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Home circuit breaker box question
Hi,
I finally had my old fuse box replaced with a Cutler-Hammer circuit breaker box last year. It has a 'disconnect' in it, to isolate me from the local power company. I had this added, as my intention was to be able to 'back feed' power to the box via a side door outdoor receptacle. Its a standard 12 circuit box, 6 to a side. On the left side is a 70 amp dbl breaker which serves as the disconnect. This side also has a 20 amp dbl. (220vac) breaker for the central A/C. There are 2 open circuits on the left side. On the right side are 6 20 amp breakers for the rest of the house, various rooms. Now, the way I figured it, when the power goes out (like it does about every time a squirrel farts around here), all I'd have to do is disconnect from the power company, flip the A/C breaker (for safety, and turn it off at the thermostat), and then plug my generator into the outdoor receptacle via a dbl. male extension (using very high quality 12-3 Polar/Solar GE cable ... about 3/4" diameter). Well, I had a chance to try this out a couple days ago, when power was out for 4 hours (we had a thunderstorm ... not a bad one ... we just lose power a LOT). I plugged in the generator after it leveled out, and was greeted with lights when I entered the house. HOWEVER, there were 3 rooms where there was no power. 3 rooms had power. When I went to the circuit box, I pulled the cover and, using my DMM, I found that every other circuit breaker had no AC on it: #1 hot; #2 dead; #3 hot; #4 dead; #5 hot; #6 dead. I sort of figured that the entire right side of the box would be powered up, but maybe there's some kind of alternating pattern to "balance the load". That's the only thing I can think of. Can anyone shed light on why I have power to only half the circuits? I'm a professional electronic technical specialist, and work with SMT/BGA boards every day ... but I'm NOT an electrician, so I'm out of my area of expertise. TV's and computer, radios and lights all worked fine. A ceiling fan in the living room was making a weird noise, and it finally stopped circulating after a bit. I thought it died, for some strange reason, however, when the power came back on, and I once again connected to the power company, the ceiling fan worked fine. Don't understand that one at all. Do all motored items not work with generator power? Am I wrong to think that my refrigerator will work properly with generator power? (the kitchen was one of the rooms that didn't power up) With the disconnect turned off, and the A/C breaker OFF, would it be safe to jumper something to get power to the unpowered circuits? Thanks for any help. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Darmok" wrote in message ... I pulled the cover and, using my DMM, I found that every other circuit breaker had no AC on it: #1 hot; #2 dead; #3 hot; #4 dead; #5 hot; #6 dead. I sort of figured that the entire right side of the box would be powered up, but maybe there's some kind of alternating pattern to "balance the load". That's the only thing I can think of. Can anyone shed light on why I have power to only half the circuits? Because some devices have 220 fed to them so you need to have both breakers adjacent. That's normal. Either get a split 220 generator properly installed or just unplug things and run them from the generator via extension cords. I'm a professional electronic technical specialist, and work with SMT/BGA boards every day ... but I'm NOT an electrician, so I'm out of my area of expertise. TV's and computer, radios and lights all worked fine. A ceiling fan in the living room was making a weird noise, and it finally stopped circulating after a bit. I thought it died, for some strange reason, however, when the power came back on, and I once again connected to the power company, the ceiling fan worked fine. Don't understand that one at all. Do all motored items not work with generator power? Hard to say why. Maybe it has a solid state control? Remote? Am I wrong to think that my refrigerator will work properly with generator power? (the kitchen was one of the rooms that didn't power up) If the generator delivers good 60 cycle power it should work fine. With the disconnect turned off, and the A/C breaker OFF, would it be safe to jumper something to get power to the unpowered circuits? Everything you suggest is nasty and could kill someone. Get a proper isolater switch from Home Depot etc. If you back feed power up the lines by forgetting something, you could kill a lineman or someone else one day. N |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Darmok wrote:
Hi, I finally had my old fuse box replaced with a Cutler-Hammer circuit breaker box last year. It has a 'disconnect' in it, to isolate me from the local power company. I had this added, as my intention was to be able to 'back feed' power to the box via a side door outdoor receptacle. Its a standard 12 circuit box, 6 to a side. On the left side is a 70 amp dbl breaker which serves as the disconnect. This side also has a 20 amp dbl. (220vac) breaker for the central A/C. There are 2 open circuits on the left side. On the right side are 6 20 amp breakers for the rest of the house, various rooms. Now, the way I figured it, when the power goes out (like it does about every time a squirrel farts around here), all I'd have to do is disconnect from the power company, flip the A/C breaker (for safety, and turn it off at the thermostat), and then plug my generator into the outdoor receptacle via a dbl. male extension (using very high quality 12-3 Polar/Solar GE cable ... about 3/4" diameter). Well, I had a chance to try this out a couple days ago, when power was out for 4 hours (we had a thunderstorm ... not a bad one ... we just lose power a LOT). I plugged in the generator after it leveled out, and was greeted with lights when I entered the house. HOWEVER, there were 3 rooms where there was no power. 3 rooms had power. When I went to the circuit box, I pulled the cover and, using my DMM, I found that every other circuit breaker had no AC on it: #1 hot; #2 dead; #3 hot; #4 dead; #5 hot; #6 dead. I sort of figured that the entire right side of the box would be powered up, but maybe there's some kind of alternating pattern to "balance the load". That's the only thing I can think of. Can anyone shed light on why I have power to only half the circuits? I'm a professional electronic technical specialist, and work with SMT/BGA boards every day ... but I'm NOT an electrician, so I'm out of my area of expertise. TV's and computer, radios and lights all worked fine. A ceiling fan in the living room was making a weird noise, and it finally stopped circulating after a bit. I thought it died, for some strange reason, however, when the power came back on, and I once again connected to the power company, the ceiling fan worked fine. Don't understand that one at all. Do all motored items not work with generator power? Am I wrong to think that my refrigerator will work properly with generator power? (the kitchen was one of the rooms that didn't power up) With the disconnect turned off, and the A/C breaker OFF, would it be safe to jumper something to get power to the unpowered circuits? Thanks for any help. you need a generator with 2 phase out . that is 2 120 volt outs that are out of phase with a common/neutral. commercial power in the US for residents normally have a center tapped transformer that will give you 120 from outer tap to center and if you need 220 for dryer, the 2 outer only are used ! because they are out of phase from each other bye 180 degrees, you can get double your voltage. in houses, its common to split up the load and try to equally load the 2 120 lines coming in. this means you should have a generate that outputs 2 120 lines that are out of phase. -- Real Programmers Do things like this. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Darmok" wrote in message ... Hi, I finally had my old fuse box replaced with a Cutler-Hammer circuit breaker box last year. It has a 'disconnect' in it, to isolate me from the local power company. I had this added, as my intention was to be able to 'back feed' power to the box via a side door outdoor receptacle. Its a standard 12 circuit box, 6 to a side. On the left side is a 70 amp dbl breaker which serves as the disconnect. This side also has a 20 amp dbl. (220vac) breaker for the central A/C. There are 2 open circuits on the left side. On the right side are 6 20 amp breakers for the rest of the house, various rooms. Get a generator transfer switch, it's the only safe and legal way to do it and you'll save yourself a lot of headaches. You can get them at any hardware store, they have a number of switches that let you select individual circuits between line and generator. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
NononononoNO! NEVER run emergency power that way! For starters, circuit breakers don't work reliably in reverse. That's why they have a 'Line' and 'Load' side. If you get an overload while running your generator into an outlet, the breaker may not trip. This could easily start a fire, damage your generator, and cause your home insurance carrier not to honor claims related to any damage from such activity. Circuit breakers will work just fine in reverse, the current is AC so it's reversing rapidly anyway but either way it makes no difference at all. There's plenty of other reasons not to do what he's contemplating though. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee wrote:
}(snip) }For starters, circuit breakers don't work reliably in reverse. Explain please...what's inside a curcuit breaker that needs to have the AC connected to the LINE to not malfunction? Stan. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:32:37 -0400, Darmok
wrote: Hi, - big snip - Thanks to all who've replied so far ... given me quite a bit to think about. FWIW, my circuit box was installed by a certified electrician .. I simply didn't feel competent to do something on that scale. They pulled my meter on the side of the house in order to install it. The 4KW generator I have (by Coleman) has 2 AC outlets, which, when measured unloaded, provide 130 VAC. I haven't tried to measure across the 2 outlets to see if 260 VAC is available, but I suspect that I will find that is true. I suppose I could wire up some kind of cross-over switch by the box on the side of the house next to my Central A/C compressor unit. That would be the logical place to bring in 220/240/260 vac. I will continue to read your comments, and check at Home Depot or Lowe's for the switch many of you have described. Cheers, Bill |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"Stan" wrote in message ... Dr. Anton T. Squeegee wrote: }(snip) }For starters, circuit breakers don't work reliably in reverse. Explain please...what's inside a curcuit breaker that needs to have the AC connected to the LINE to not malfunction? I would never wire one backwards, however they should work either way. They are more subtle than most people know however. N |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:20:06 -0400 Darmok
wrote: FWIW, my circuit box was installed by a certified electrician .. I simply didn't feel competent to do something on that scale. They pulled my meter on the side of the house in order to install it. Perhaps you didn't tell him all of what you had in mind. A good electrician would have explained the danger, and illegality, of installing your backup power this way. The 4KW generator I have (by Coleman) has 2 AC outlets, which, when measured unloaded, provide 130 VAC. I haven't tried to measure across the 2 outlets to see if 260 VAC is available, but I suspect that I will find that is true. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that you'll find that both outlets put out the same 130V. There should be a spec plate somewhere on your generator that gives its output voltage. If it doesn't mention something above 200 V somewhere, then you have a very straightforward 120V single phase generator. I suppose I could wire up some kind of cross-over switch by the box on the side of the house next to my Central A/C compressor unit. That would be the logical place to bring in 220/240/260 vac. This transfer switch, what you're calling a cross-over switch, needs to be inserted in the line between your meter and your breaker box. It's purpose is to make sure that there is no way that you can ever connect both the generator and the line to the house, or the generator to the line. It's for your safety, the safety of anyone working on a downed line in your service area, and the safety of your generator. It could also be wired up permanently with a cord which you could safely plug into your generator when the need arises. You don't EVER want to have a male plug that can be hot when unplugged. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
"Jim Adney" wrote in message ... On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:20:06 -0400 Darmok wrote: FWIW, my circuit box was installed by a certified electrician .. I simply didn't feel competent to do something on that scale. They pulled my meter on the side of the house in order to install it. Perhaps you didn't tell him all of what you had in mind. A good electrician would have explained the danger, and illegality, of installing your backup power this way. The 4KW generator I have (by Coleman) has 2 AC outlets, which, when measured unloaded, provide 130 VAC. I haven't tried to measure across the 2 outlets to see if 260 VAC is available, but I suspect that I will find that is true. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that you'll find that both outlets put out the same 130V. There should be a spec plate somewhere on your generator that gives its output voltage. If it doesn't mention something above 200 V somewhere, then you have a very straightforward 120V single phase generator. I suppose I could wire up some kind of cross-over switch by the box on the side of the house next to my Central A/C compressor unit. That would be the logical place to bring in 220/240/260 vac. This transfer switch, what you're calling a cross-over switch, needs to be inserted in the line between your meter and your breaker box. It's purpose is to make sure that there is no way that you can ever connect both the generator and the line to the house, or the generator to the line. It's for your safety, the safety of anyone working on a downed line in your service area, and the safety of your generator. It could also be wired up permanently with a cord which you could safely plug into your generator when the need arises. You don't EVER want to have a male plug that can be hot when unplugged. The transfer switch doesn't go between the meter and the panel, it wires into the panel and the individual circuits go between the breaker output and the hot wire to the circuit you wish to have backup power available to. They're metal boxes with a plug for the generator and a flex whip to wire into the panel, they start at around $120 for a small one. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:45:10 GMT "James Sweet"
wrote: The transfer switch doesn't go between the meter and the panel, it wires into the panel and the individual circuits go between the breaker output and the hot wire to the circuit you wish to have backup power available to. They're metal boxes with a plug for the generator and a flex whip to wire into the panel, they start at around $120 for a small one. Then let me rephrase: The transfer switch goes into the line feeding whatever load you wish to provide emergency power to. In his case, he's asking to feed the whole box, which means that he needs one of the larger transfer switches and he needs to put it in the line between his meter and his service panel. Of course he probably also needs a bigger generator, and one rated at 220V, but the box he is asking to power really isn't all that big, so I suspect that he just needs a 220V generator and a transfer switch rated to handle the total box power. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
15A Circuit Breaker on a Power Tap | Electronics | |||
Homes in General, one question and a few ideas | Home Repair | |||
Electric circuit breaker corrosion | Home Repair | |||
Newbie Service Panel Question | Home Repair | |||
Home HVAC question.... | Home Repair |