I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

Mostly nonsense. The first paragraph is silly. Actually, most of that
is silly.

Machinists who use nc mills do cool, and challenging stuff. I once
wrote a couple of n/c compilers, essentially inventing a very dumb
programming language for mills and metal punch presses. A couple
months later, I was astonished by the elegant constructs that the
machinists were able to make within my dumb language.

My machinist guy does cool SolidWorks 3D models and then turns them
into metal and plastic on our Tormach. That's better than cranking
handwheels on a Bridgeport for the rest of one's working life. [1]

Sure, word processors have eliminated typists, but computers don't
have ideas or create useful content.

Automated health records are fabulous. My doctor doesn't need a chart
folder to be transported across town before she sees me. She can see
my history, test results, MRI images taken yesterday or 5 years ago,
everything. If I do encounter a doctor who stares at the screen and
doesn't talk to me, I get another doctor.

Spice and PCB software and such (even Word!) have sure improved my
life.

Remember when photography was such a hassle? Big drafted paper
drawings on the shop floor? Now we use pics on screens as assembly
drawings. Better all around.

I have two new engineers, 22 and 28 years old, and they are good and
getting better fast. There are good kids out there. The proportion of
good EE grads is falling mostly because so many more people are going
to engineering school these days. We have decades of experience, which
mostly helps, and they don't.

[1] We used to avoid machined parts like some dread disease. We don't
any more. 3D computer design and affordable n/c changed that.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in
:

I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

I wonder what it is sucking with that straw, oil?

On 11/23/2014 10:26 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

I think that is an unrelated issue. What I sense (hear, see)
in youngsters is an almost obsession with "making money"... not
"greed" but, rather, "How am I going to pay off this huge debt
I incurred at RinkyDink Polytechnic?" Even before choosing a
school, they seem to be picking careers NOT out of a fondness
for the work but, instead, for how it will "provide" for them.

"How quickly can I get from A to B?" instead of "Gee, I wonder
what I'll find interesting on the journey?"

They seem more intent on minimizing inconvenience/hassle than
on truly enjoying (or, at the very least, not DREADING!) what they
are setting out to pursue for a lifetime!

Whether the personalities (boring) drive the choices or the choices
drive the personalities is up for debate. I've met as many boring
engineers as I have *accountants*!

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...
http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

I didn't have time to read the WSJ article, so I fed it to my
computerized document analysis program, which analyzed the content as
incompatible with my pre-conceived ideas, ideologies, and agendas. It
also produced an easily digestible summary which classifies the
article as improbable and reactionary. That fits nicely with my
belief that technical progress should not be obstructed by hindsight.
Also that education will not produce smarter (i.e. less dumb)
individuals with a higher IQ. No need for me to read or think, when
my computer program can do it for me.

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.
...Jim Thompson

Recent college graduates are fully qualified to memorize some books
and pass exams, but little else. Doing more requires some real world
experience, usually not available in most colleges. If you seriously
expect more from recent college graduates, I suggest you discuss the
problem with the various accreditation committees, which insist on
general and liberal education classes, instead of lab, experimental,
and work experience. Most imaginative solutions are based on a prior
experience done differently. Without that prior experience, there is
little to imagine.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...
http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

I didn't have time to read the WSJ article, so I fed it to my
computerized document analysis program, which analyzed the content as
incompatible with my pre-conceived ideas, ideologies, and agendas. It
also produced an easily digestible summary which classifies the
article as improbable and reactionary. That fits nicely with my
belief that technical progress should not be obstructed by hindsight.
Also that education will not produce smarter (i.e. less dumb)
individuals with a higher IQ. No need for me to read or think, when
my computer program can do it for me.

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.
...Jim Thompson

Recent college graduates are fully qualified to memorize some books
and pass exams, but little else. Doing more requires some real world
experience, usually not available in most colleges. If you seriously
expect more from recent college graduates, I suggest you discuss the
problem with the various accreditation committees, which insist on
general and liberal education classes, instead of lab, experimental,
and work experience. Most imaginative solutions are based on a prior
experience done differently. Without that prior experience, there is
little to imagine.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson
--

Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is
only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet.
As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share.
In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't
tie their shoelaces without an app.
Art

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 12:44:31 -0800, "Artemus"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
.. .
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson
--

Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is
only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet.
As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share.
In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't
tie their shoelaces without an app.
Art



ROTFLMAO :-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 11/23/2014 1:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...
http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

I didn't have time to read the WSJ article, so I fed it to my
computerized document analysis program, which analyzed the content as
incompatible with my pre-conceived ideas, ideologies, and agendas. It
also produced an easily digestible summary which classifies the
article as improbable and reactionary. That fits nicely with my
belief that technical progress should not be obstructed by hindsight.
Also that education will not produce smarter (i.e. less dumb)
individuals with a higher IQ. No need for me to read or think, when
my computer program can do it for me.

Ah, you need to update that app! They've redesigned the knowledgebase
that they use to arrive at conclusions. Fed the same article, the new
version comes up with "43"!

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

Recent college graduates are fully qualified to memorize some books
and pass exams, but little else. Doing more requires some real world
experience, usually not available in most colleges.

Actually, the situation is much worse than that -- withthe push for
colleges to "certify" that their graudates get *jobs* that indicate
the cost of the education has "paid off". So, more of the "teach to
the test" mentality -- the "test" being "whatever employers want TODAY!"

They'll, perhaps, revise this metric to also include "marketability
after 1, 5, 10, etc. years to demonstrate to potential students
(aka "loan targets") the viability of that education.

Of course, many of these shops change names, go out of business, etc.
when the shopping mall that they operate out of finds a *real* "paying
customer" for that space! :-/

If you seriously
expect more from recent college graduates, I suggest you discuss the
problem with the various accreditation committees, which insist on
general and liberal education classes, instead of lab, experimental,
and work experience. Most imaginative solutions are based on a prior
experience done differently. Without that prior experience, there is
little to imagine.

While I had my fair share of labs in school, I'm not sure they yield
the results you think. In fact, one of my early employers once confided
that "if I need someone TODAY, I'll hire someone from large university
nearby; if I need someone for TOMORROW, I'll hire *you*!"

I.e., some schools teach how to *do*; others teach how to *learn*.
The attitude that you instill in the student is largely, IMO, a
result of this.

(e.g., I recall asking professor in an abstract algebra class about the
number of DIFFERENT tic-tac-toe games possible -- considering reflections,
rotations, etc. as yielding equivalent variations on a single play. His
response: "I don't know. Why don't you look into it and let me know
what you find, next class?" Today, the common answer would be something
along the lines of "google it")

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

Lack of experience with short-term human interface is common with
software and automation designers. Never mind longer term effects.

Even those professions associated with increased experience seem
unable to consider these effects responsibly, so I don't think you can
blame just one influence on something as vague and widespread as your
personal impression of 'dumbing down'.

RL

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:48:29 -0500, legg wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

Lack of experience with short-term human interface is common with
software and automation designers. Never mind longer term effects.

Even those professions associated with increased experience seem
unable to consider these effects responsibly, so I don't think you can
blame just one influence on something as vague and widespread as your
personal impression of 'dumbing down'.

RL

I don't think it's just our automaton society... the education system
SUCKS... producing graduates who can pass the exam, but can't think of
any extension beyond the raw data... they can't _think_, period!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 11/23/2014 9:26 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

This is not a new phenomenon.
40 years ago, when I was doing college recruiting for engineers,
you'd see kids with a 4.0 GPA and skill solving equations,
but not even a tiny clue about what to use 'em on.
No creative ability.
No ability to associate or extrapolate.
Can't even bias a transistor.
Impressive-looking senior project, but couldn't answer the
simplest questions about what was really going on.

You don't get it if they don't teach it.
And if the teachers don't have it...

Exactly the same thing happens in industry with the stupid
manager mentoring more stupid engineers and managers.

It's a rare occasion when a gifted student has a gifted teacher
and works for a gifted mentor.

It's the circle of life...
or is it the spiral of death.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:48:29 -0500, legg wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

Lack of experience with short-term human interface is common with
software and automation designers. Never mind longer term effects.

Mathy/sciency types are often not people-people, and often have poor
language skills. That's how our brains are wired.

I had a terrible time trying to learn French, and a lot of the social
science/English lit/art concepts were, and still are, meaningless to
me.

Most (good) engineers are somewhere along the autism spectrum. It's
sort of a job requirement.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 11/23/2014 1:44 PM, Artemus wrote:

Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is
only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet.
As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share.
In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't
tie their shoelaces without an app.

Perfect argument for patricide -- act quickly!!!

In article , says...

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson
--

Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is
only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet.
As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share.
In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't
tie their shoelaces without an app.
Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0

In article , says...

On 11/23/2014 9:26 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

This is not a new phenomenon.
40 years ago, when I was doing college recruiting for engineers,
you'd see kids with a 4.0 GPA and skill solving equations,
but not even a tiny clue about what to use 'em on.
No creative ability.
No ability to associate or extrapolate.
Can't even bias a transistor.
Impressive-looking senior project, but couldn't answer the
simplest questions about what was really going on.

You don't get it if they don't teach it.
And if the teachers don't have it...

Exactly the same thing happens in industry with the stupid
manager mentoring more stupid engineers and managers.

It's a rare occasion when a gifted student has a gifted teacher
and works for a gifted mentor.

It's the circle of life...
or is it the spiral of death.

The problem is simple, too many of them are trying to be the chief,
when the majority of them have an interest and attribute to be
Indians.

Jamie

Artemus wrote:


Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is
only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet.
As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share.
In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't
tie their shoelaces without an app.


This explains the rising number of Liberal fools.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

mike wrote:

This is not a new phenomenon.
40 years ago, when I was doing college recruiting for engineers,
you'd see kids with a 4.0 GPA and skill solving equations,
but not even a tiny clue about what to use 'em on.
No creative ability.
No ability to associate or extrapolate.
Can't even bias a transistor.
Impressive-looking senior project, but couldn't answer the
simplest questions about what was really going on.


40 years ago I was trying to teach EE students real world
Electronics. They could give me 50 reasons why something wasn't designed
for optimum performance, but they couldn't troubleshoot a five tube
table radio or a common car radio design. I had one idiot ranting that
they should use 1% resistors in the audio stages of a walkie talkie.
It's amazing the number of students who had never heard of anything
higher than 5% resistors, and the concept of 50% tolerance had them
foaming at the mouth. They were freaking that electrolytics were
-20/+80% tolerance, as well.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:20:46 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Ah, you need to update that app! They've redesigned the knowledgebase
that they use to arrive at conclusions. Fed the same article, the new
version comes up with "43"!

My app produces 42.9999999999.

Plugging my previous posting into a readability program, I find that
my writing is suitable for the 6th grade of 11 to 12 year olds. Note
that #MainContent tacked onto the end:
http://read-able.com/check.php?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Ffo rum%2F%3Fhl%3Den%23!original%2Fsci.electronics.des ign%2FvvJqjEEA1uM%2F7k66jU_bPkUJ+%23mainContent
http://read-able.com
Testing just your above paragraph (starting with Ah, you need...),
you're writing is suitable for grade level 7 of 12 to 13 year old.
From this, I would conclude that your logic is somewhat over my head,
and in need of dumbing down. Please adjust your IQ accordingly.

I must confess that I sometimes run my scribbling through this web
page to make sure that my rants do not overload the intellectual
capacity of my audience. Most often, it's simply a matter of
replacing words with three or more syllables with the colloquial
equivalents. "Hey dude. That's like really cool." seems to work
better than eloquence.

Actually, the situation is much worse than that -- withthe push for
colleges to "certify" that their graudates get *jobs* that indicate
the cost of the education has "paid off". So, more of the "teach to
the test" mentality -- the "test" being "whatever employers want TODAY!"

They'll, perhaps, revise this metric to also include "marketability
after 1, 5, 10, etc. years to demonstrate to potential students
(aka "loan targets") the viability of that education.

Of course, many of these shops change names, go out of business, etc.
when the shopping mall that they operate out of finds a *real* "paying
customer" for that space! :-/

My first job out of college was fixing CB radios, a step down from the
job I had prior to entering college (mostly to hide from the draft).

There's been some unsuccessful litigation by jobless graduates for
"educational malpractice" and "breach of contract" which suggests that
possession of a diploma will somehow entitle them to instant
employment. Historically, the situation was backwards. Colleges were
originally intended to educate the sons of the wealthy on what was
expected of them and how to act like a cultured and superior member of
the upper classes. Meanwhile, the GUM (great unwashed masses) looked
at the graduates of such colleges, and noticed that they were wealthy
and well placed. Without more than a cursory look at the situation,
they somehow concluded that attending college would somehow also make
them wealthy and well placed. Attracted by the additional revenue
from the merchant classes, the colleges were quite willing to admit
the boorish multitudes to their cloistered halls. Although probably
disappointed by the lack of results, graduates tended to not publicize
the mistake, resulting in a perception of success, and a perpetuation
of the institution. As with most systems, garbage in always results
in garbage out.

Oddly, I don't recall receiving a limited educational warranty from
any of the three colleges that tolerated my presence. At the time
(late 1960's) it was assumed that there was no warranty, expressed or
implied. Since this was the Viet Nam war era, there was a substantial
demand for a college education (aka deferment), resulting in colleges
trying to eliminate those that were unsuitable, unworthy, or
politically inconvenient. The only legal way to do this was by
thoroughly terrorizing students with massive work loads, impossible
schedules, exams from hell, and placement tests. Hiring industry
dropouts at administrators and teachers insured the survival of the
fittest.

Meanwhile, industry had discovered the real value of a college
graduate. The recruiters did not care about what students had
learned. They would soon learn what they needed to know on the job.
What they looked for were survivors of the aforementioned ordeal
process, that demonstrated that they can survive the abuse, overwork,
and examinations. These graduates also demonstrated that they could
actually attend somewhat useless classes for at least 4 years without
exhibiting signs of terminal boredom, which is a very useful skill in
a corporate environment.

However, those glorious days of full employment didn't last. When the
economy took a dive, the recruiters disappeared, and the attributes
considered desirable were now useless. Prospective employers now
wanted employees that already knew how to do things, were somewhat
organized, and knew which end of the soldering iron to grab. It took
many years and economic cycles for the colleges to adjust to this new
paradigm. I'm not sure if prospective college student have ever
adjusted to this reality.

Many years ago, when I was still on good terms with the local high
skool, I was invited to talk to a class of prospective college
students on the topic of engineering as a career. My somewhat cynical
attitude made me a dubious choice, but lacking anyone else available,
I promised to do my best. There were other speakers and I was last
(in the hope that they would run out of time). I gave my glossed over
spiel on what an engineer does, and asked for questions. Dead
silence. Then, they started coming, asking about all manner of
things, none of which had anything to do with engineering. Office
politics, benefits, stock options, raises, teamwork, vacations,
retirement, overtime, etc. I did a really bad thing. I told them the
truth, which probably made some student reconsider their future
careers. I was not invited to return the next semester.

Today, the questions would be different. I suspect I would get
questions about outsourcing, H1B, design automation, and obsolescence.
Over the years, I've noticed very little change in the intelligence
distribution of high skool graduates. A small number will do well no
matter what profession they select. The largest number will need to
work at whatever they chose, with success going mostly to the lucky,
financially solvent, and reasonably devious individuals. A
substantial number at the bottom of the scale are certain to fail at
whatever they attempt. Think bell curve. Although the concerns and
toys were different over the years, the intelligence distribution
seems to be about the same. Automation didn't change anything for the
students.

While I had my fair share of labs in school, I'm not sure they yield
the results you think. In fact, one of my early employers once confided
that "if I need someone TODAY, I'll hire someone from large university
nearby; if I need someone for TOMORROW, I'll hire *you*!"

In the 1960's, the few companies I worked for had 10 year and 25 year
plans. Today, they have a 2 or 3 year plan with selling the company
to a conglomerate or a corporate raider within 10 years. The larger
companies are different. In the 1960's, they a few had 50 year plans
for global domination. Today, the plans are the same, except they
plan to do it within 8 years (the 2 term election cycle).

I attended Cal Poly Pomona. At the time, the curriculum was full of
labs and hands-on classes. The skool motto was "Learn by Doing". I
was useless with theory, but vary good at doing things, so this suited
me quite well. In my opinion, it worked as the graduates were in high
demand by companies that wanted graduates to get a head start on the
learning curve. However, there was a problem. The college was not
accredited. A few years after I was graduated, the college became
accredited largely by replacing labs and hands-on classes with useless
general education and liberal arts classes. The purpose was to
produce a well rounded graduate, capable of getting along in any work
or social environment, but able to do little that was useful.

I.e., some schools teach how to *do*; others teach how to *learn*.
The attitude that you instill in the student is largely, IMO, a
result of this.

(e.g., I recall asking professor in an abstract algebra class about the
number of DIFFERENT tic-tac-toe games possible -- considering reflections,
rotations, etc. as yielding equivalent variations on a single play. His
response: "I don't know. Why don't you look into it and let me know
what you find, next class?" Today, the common answer would be something
along the lines of "google it")

I used to have a large collection of EDN, Electronic Design, Design
News, Machine Design, etc magazines in my office at one employer. When
asked why I had such a large collection, I truthfully answered that
this was from where I steal my best designs. Today, I use Google, but
the methodology is much the same.

Any student that expects the professor to know everything will soon be
disillusioned. My usual line was that the teacher need only know more
than the best student, and then only to prevent embarrassing exchanges
like the one above.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:00:53 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I don't think it's just our automaton society... the education system
SUCKS... producing graduates who can pass the exam, but can't think of
any extension beyond the raw data... they can't _think_, period!
...Jim Thompson

Oh, but they do think, just not the way you want them to think. Roll
back the clock to your college days and try to recall your concerns,
priorities, and objectives. Here are mine, circa about 1969:
1. Dodge the draft by maintaining a 2S student deferment.
2. Make enough money with part time summer jobs to afford college.
3. Pass the exams so I can stay in college.
4. Learn something.
5. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

If I convert the above priorities into percent of available time, 99%
of my time was consumed by the first three priorities. Learning
something was an incidental side effect of the first three. At best,
short term learning techniques worked best for passing the exams. I
would cram 2 days before, relax the day before, and generally do well
on the exam. The next day, I had forgotten most of what I had
"learned".

This is nothing new. In my present profession as a computer
consultant, I often give short explanations (or lectures) on various
computer topics to customers. I preface all of them with:
"I do not expect you to remember everything I say today. At
best you'll remember 10% of what I say. However, you will
remember that I mumbled something about xxxxxx and I expect
you to do some basic Googling on the topic of xxxxxx which
should help your remember. If not, then call me."
It doesn't always work perfectly, but it does help. Now, do you
really expect students to remember 100% of what they had learned? I
don't. The inability to recall everything from 4 years of cramming
does not translate into an inability to think.

Incidentally, few of my customers take notes when I offer procedures
and explanations. When I practically demand that they take notes (so
I don't have to repeat my song and dance over the phone a few days
later), I can easily see the problem. They don't know how to take
notes. All the bad habits that were drilled out of college students
seem to be epidemic. Huge letters, triple space lines, illegible
scrawl, lack of organization, etc are common. I sometimes asked job
applicants to take notes and have observed that their organization
abilities and sometimes their logical thinking seems to follow their
note taking style.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/23/2014 11:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:20:46 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Ah, you need to update that app! They've redesigned the knowledgebase
that they use to arrive at conclusions. Fed the same article, the new
version comes up with "43"!

My app produces 42.9999999999.

Let it run for a few more hours and it may converge at the correct answer!

Plugging my previous posting into a readability program, I find that
my writing is suitable for the 6th grade of 11 to 12 year olds. Note
that #MainContent tacked onto the end:

Testing just your above paragraph (starting with Ah, you need...),
you're writing is suitable for grade level 7 of 12 to 13 year old.
From this, I would conclude that your logic is somewhat over my head,
and in need of dumbing down. Please adjust your IQ accordingly.

grin My formal writing is usually off the charts. I tend to cram too
much in too few words, too many clauses, etc. shrug I guess *I* prefer
that to "See Dick run! Run, Dick, run!"

I must confess that I sometimes run my scribbling through this web
page to make sure that my rants do not overload the intellectual
capacity of my audience. Most often, it's simply a matter of
replacing words with three or more syllables with the colloquial
equivalents. "Hey dude. That's like really cool." seems to work
better than eloquence.

Expletives are also effective!

Actually, the situation is much worse than that -- withthe push for
colleges to "certify" that their graudates get *jobs* that indicate
the cost of the education has "paid off". So, more of the "teach to
the test" mentality -- the "test" being "whatever employers want TODAY!"

They'll, perhaps, revise this metric to also include "marketability
after 1, 5, 10, etc. years to demonstrate to potential students
(aka "loan targets") the viability of that education.

Of course, many of these shops change names, go out of business, etc.
when the shopping mall that they operate out of finds a *real* "paying
customer" for that space! :-/

My first job out of college was fixing CB radios, a step down from the
job I had prior to entering college (mostly to hide from the draft).

There's been some unsuccessful litigation by jobless graduates for
"educational malpractice" and "breach of contract" which suggests that
possession of a diploma will somehow entitle them to instant
employment. Historically, the situation was backwards. Colleges were
originally intended to educate the sons of the wealthy on what was
expected of them and how to act like a cultured and superior member of
the upper classes. Meanwhile, the GUM (great unwashed masses) looked
at the graduates of such colleges, and noticed that they were wealthy
and well placed. Without more than a cursory look at the situation,
they somehow concluded that attending college would somehow also make
them wealthy and well placed. Attracted by the additional revenue
from the merchant classes, the colleges were quite willing to admit
the boorish multitudes to their cloistered halls. Although probably
disappointed by the lack of results, graduates tended to not publicize
the mistake, resulting in a perception of success, and a perpetuation
of the institution. As with most systems, garbage in always results
in garbage out.

I think the pendulum may have swung too far to the extreme. It's as
if the schools are now on a (commercial) par with fast food joints, etc.

Oddly, I don't recall receiving a limited educational warranty from
any of the three colleges that tolerated my presence. At the time
(late 1960's) it was assumed that there was no warranty, expressed or
implied. Since this was the Viet Nam war era, there was a substantial
demand for a college education (aka deferment), resulting in colleges
trying to eliminate those that were unsuitable, unworthy, or
politically inconvenient. The only legal way to do this was by
thoroughly terrorizing students with massive work loads, impossible
schedules, exams from hell, and placement tests. Hiring industry
dropouts at administrators and teachers insured the survival of the
fittest.

Meanwhile, industry had discovered the real value of a college
graduate. The recruiters did not care about what students had
learned. They would soon learn what they needed to know on the job.
What they looked for were survivors of the aforementioned ordeal
process, that demonstrated that they can survive the abuse, overwork,
and examinations. These graduates also demonstrated that they could
actually attend somewhat useless classes for at least 4 years without
exhibiting signs of terminal boredom, which is a very useful skill in
a corporate environment.

I had *one* professor who always taught (lecture) at 9AM. Of course,
this was unbearably early for many of us! He volunteered the reason for
this was that he didn't think we deserve a degree without attending at
least one 9A class! frown I guess that's as good a reason as any...

However, those glorious days of full employment didn't last. When the
economy took a dive, the recruiters disappeared, and the attributes
considered desirable were now useless. Prospective employers now
wanted employees that already knew how to do things, were somewhat
organized, and knew which end of the soldering iron to grab. It took
many years and economic cycles for the colleges to adjust to this new
paradigm. I'm not sure if prospective college student have ever
adjusted to this reality.

Many of the folks I went to school with could *not* use a soldering iron.

A good friend was preparing to order a $400 "A/D converter board" so he
could read the position of a pot. ("Um, why not use the pot to control
the frequency of a multivibrator and just trigger an interrupt from that?")

Many years ago, when I was still on good terms with the local high
skool, I was invited to talk to a class of prospective college
students on the topic of engineering as a career. My somewhat cynical
attitude made me a dubious choice, but lacking anyone else available,
I promised to do my best. There were other speakers and I was last
(in the hope that they would run out of time). I gave my glossed over
spiel on what an engineer does, and asked for questions. Dead
silence. Then, they started coming, asking about all manner of
things, none of which had anything to do with engineering. Office
politics, benefits, stock options, raises, teamwork, vacations,
retirement, overtime, etc. I did a really bad thing. I told them the
truth, which probably made some student reconsider their future
careers. I was not invited to return the next semester.

shrug I discourage most folks from engineering careers ("programming"
as well) if their interests haven't suggested to me that they would
actually *enjoy* (be stimulated by) this sort of work. I've met too many
bad engineers that I attribute to a lack of genuine interest *in*
engineering.

"Why don't you get an MBA, instead?"

Today, the questions would be different. I suspect I would get
questions about outsourcing, H1B, design automation, and obsolescence.
Over the years, I've noticed very little change in the intelligence
distribution of high skool graduates. A small number will do well no
matter what profession they select. The largest number will need to
work at whatever they chose, with success going mostly to the lucky,
financially solvent, and reasonably devious individuals. A
substantial number at the bottom of the scale are certain to fail at
whatever they attempt. Think bell curve. Although the concerns and
toys were different over the years, the intelligence distribution
seems to be about the same. Automation didn't change anything for the
students.

I think (here, not sure of other school districts) the relationship
of teacher and student. I see machines now used a lot to babysit kids
instead of interpersonal interactions -- similar to parents sitting their
kids in front of the TV to keep them "occupied".

Where I see it making a difference in the workplace is that it tends to
take the possibility of any thought away from the employee -- esp youngsters.
If they don't know/remember which button to press for whatever, they
call for assistance (instead of thinking it out).

And, they aren't *encouraged* to think it out! Instead, thinking can lead to
a MISTAKE! :-/

While I had my fair share of labs in school, I'm not sure they yield
the results you think. In fact, one of my early employers once confided
that "if I need someone TODAY, I'll hire someone from large university
nearby; if I need someone for TOMORROW, I'll hire *you*!"

In the 1960's, the few companies I worked for had 10 year and 25 year
plans. Today, they have a 2 or 3 year plan with selling the company
to a conglomerate or a corporate raider within 10 years. The larger
companies are different. In the 1960's, they a few had 50 year plans
for global domination. Today, the plans are the same, except they
plan to do it within 8 years (the 2 term election cycle).

I attended Cal Poly Pomona. At the time, the curriculum was full of
labs and hands-on classes. The skool motto was "Learn by Doing". I
was useless with theory, but vary good at doing things, so this suited
me quite well. In my opinion, it worked as the graduates were in high
demand by companies that wanted graduates to get a head start on the
learning curve. However, there was a problem. The college was not
accredited. A few years after I was graduated, the college became
accredited largely by replacing labs and hands-on classes with useless
general education and liberal arts classes. The purpose was to
produce a well rounded graduate, capable of getting along in any work
or social environment, but able to do little that was useful.

Most of my education was in theory and "upcoming technologies". E.g.,
one group was given a bunch of VAXEN as "personal workstations" just
to see what was likely to happen when individuals had that sort of
processing power at their disposal (instead of sharing it).

We were required to take 8 (?) "Humanities" courses allegedly to make
sure we were "well rounded" (ha!). But, even the labs were designed
with an eye on the theory. E.g., understanding the input impedance of
the scope and how it factors into the measurement of a "token circuit"
(by contrast, other schools may have neglected *demonstrating* this
in favor of showing how the scope was *used* to measure things).

I.e., some schools teach how to *do*; others teach how to *learn*.
The attitude that you instill in the student is largely, IMO, a
result of this.

(e.g., I recall asking professor in an abstract algebra class about the
number of DIFFERENT tic-tac-toe games possible -- considering reflections,
rotations, etc. as yielding equivalent variations on a single play. His
response: "I don't know. Why don't you look into it and let me know
what you find, next class?" Today, the common answer would be something
along the lines of "google it")

I used to have a large collection of EDN, Electronic Design, Design
News, Machine Design, etc magazines in my office at one employer. When
asked why I had such a large collection, I truthfully answered that
this was from where I steal my best designs. Today, I use Google, but
the methodology is much the same.

Any student that expects the professor to know everything will soon be
disillusioned. My usual line was that the teacher need only know more
than the best student, and then only to prevent embarrassing exchanges
like the one above.

Professor's goal is to show you how to figure out what you will (someday)
need by exposing you to tools (theory and methods) and suggesting how
they can be "applied". I.e., "using what we've been discussing in class,
YOU should be able to figure out the number of TTT games... tell me how
you did it, next week"

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

Jim,

I've enjoyed and learned from your postings in this newsgroup over the
years, but I have to say that I'm very disappointed with you for throwing
out an unsupported -- and apparently unresearched -- blanket statement
like this one.

Back in the Dark Ages(*) I attended and managed to eventually graduate
from that tiny but august institution(**):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_College_of_Florida

While it's true that in those days we had some strange students at New
College (and a few _very_ strange ones), I'm not convinced that they were
any stranger than those attending similar institutions; moer to thr
point, I don't recall any of them being boring. Annoying at times, yes;
boring, no.

It's true that, on occasion, one or two had a bit more imagination than I
appreciated, and in directions that I wasn't always comfortable with, but
the same might have been said about me at the time.

Please retract your claim and assign yourself 20 hours of Hyper-
Sensitivity Awareness Training. There's a lot of hyper-sensitivity going
around these days, and you clearly need to be more aware of it. grin!


Frank McKenney

(*) A few years before Sarasota passed its Dinosaur Leash Law.
(**) They were kind, and I was persistant. grin!
--
An inventor is simply a fellow who doesn't take his education
too seriously. -- Charles F. Kettering
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:50:10 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
I really believe this is happening...

http://tinyurl.com/lssbgwu

New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination
whatsoever, with boring personalities to match.

...Jim Thompson

Jim,

I've enjoyed and learned from your postings in this newsgroup over the
years, but I have to say that I'm very disappointed with you for throwing
out an unsupported -- and apparently unresearched -- blanket statement
like this one.

Back in the Dark Ages(*) I attended and managed to eventually graduate
from that tiny but august institution(**):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_College_of_Florida

While it's true that in those days we had some strange students at New
College (and a few _very_ strange ones), I'm not convinced that they were
any stranger than those attending similar institutions; moer to thr
point, I don't recall any of them being boring. Annoying at times, yes;
boring, no.

It's true that, on occasion, one or two had a bit more imagination than I
appreciated, and in directions that I wasn't always comfortable with, but
the same might have been said about me at the time.

Please retract your claim and assign yourself 20 hours of Hyper-
Sensitivity Awareness Training. There's a lot of hyper-sensitivity going
around these days, and you clearly need to be more aware of it. grin!


Frank McKenney

(*) A few years before Sarasota passed its Dinosaur Leash Law.
(**) They were kind, and I was persistant. grin!
--
An inventor is simply a fellow who doesn't take his education
too seriously. -- Charles F. Kettering

I think I'll start a riot :-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.