So I have to program some of these older components these days and I wonder
if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet points to
various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay $500,- for a
programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an idea or a link?

petrus bitbyter

In article ,
says...
So I have to program some of these older components these days and I wonder
if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet points to
various programmer manufacturers but I don¤=3Ft like to pay $500,- for a
programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an idea or a link?

petrus bitbyter


I have NEVER found a link to any of the GAL or PAL parts programming
info.
I asked a guy I knew that worked for a device programming company and he
told me they had to sign all kinds of NDAs and so on to get official
data from the PLD companies. If it is really that infrequent, just find
someone with a programmer and borrow it to burn your ICs or to stick
some test equipment on to ferret out the algorithm.

This looks good:
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi..._ClikMe1st.htm

Oddly enough, I was perusing PALs the other day. Seems there's been no
progress since EEPROM was invented; they're all high voltage programmed
CMOS. They're also monster current gobblers. I find it hard to believe a
22V10 should draw fully half the current of an NMOS Z80-CPU, but that's
apparently how awful they are.

If you want a short logic function, you'd be better off with a CPLD
(usually JTAG programmed), or if you can tolerate the delay, even an MCU.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

"petrus bitbyter" wrote in message
l.nl...
So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?

petrus bitbyter

On 3/24/2014 3:08 PM, petrus bitbyter wrote:
So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?

petrus bitbyter
There exists a paper databook that details the algorithms.
I've never been able to find it online.
It's my assumption that they had too much trouble with
people building programmers and blaming the devices.
They quit printing the databook very early in the process.

My hardcopy is loaned out, but I know they exist.

Best to find someone who has a programmer if you aren't likely
to need it again.

On 03/24/2014 08:46 PM, Tim Williams wrote:
This looks good:
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi..._ClikMe1st.htm

Oddly enough, I was perusing PALs the other day. Seems there's been no
progress since EEPROM was invented; they're all high voltage programmed
CMOS. They're also monster current gobblers. I find it hard to believe a
22V10 should draw fully half the current of an NMOS Z80-CPU, but that's
apparently how awful they are.

If you want a short logic function, you'd be better off with a CPLD
(usually JTAG programmed), or if you can tolerate the delay, even an MCU.

Tim


There were various "zero power" PALS, e.g. the PALCE22v10Z, which I used
to use a lot back in the day. They gave you full CMOS output swing, as
well, which the power gobbling ones generally didn't. Mostly they were
really expensive, but they did let you fix things in code afterwards,
which was a plus.

A small CoolRunner, e.g. and XC9536XL, costs $1, is in-system
programmable, and has 36 macrocells made up from 800 gates. 22V10s are
more expensive, and have only 10 macrocells with weirdly variable
numbers of gates (500 total).

I'm getting set up to do CPLDs again myself. Verilog is a nice change
from PALASM.

Anybody got a good feeling for the relative timing jitter of CPLDs vs.
fixed-function parts? With all those muxes and things inside, I'd
expect it might be quite a bit worse.

Is it worth resynchronizing jitter-sensitive stuff like PLLs running
from CPLDs?

Cheers

Phil

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

"Phil Hobbs" schreef in bericht
...

On 03/24/2014 08:46 PM, Tim Williams wrote:
This looks good:
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi..._ClikMe1st.htm

Oddly enough, I was perusing PALs the other day. Seems there's been no
progress since EEPROM was invented; they're all high voltage programmed
CMOS. They're also monster current gobblers. I find it hard to believe a
22V10 should draw fully half the current of an NMOS Z80-CPU, but that's
apparently how awful they are.

If you want a short logic function, you'd be better off with a CPLD
(usually JTAG programmed), or if you can tolerate the delay, even an MCU.

Tim


There were various "zero power" PALS, e.g. the PALCE22v10Z, which I used
to use a lot back in the day. They gave you full CMOS output swing, as
well, which the power gobbling ones generally didn't. Mostly they were
really expensive, but they did let you fix things in code afterwards,
which was a plus.

A small CoolRunner, e.g. and XC9536XL, costs $1, is in-system
programmable, and has 36 macrocells made up from 800 gates. 22V10s are
more expensive, and have only 10 macrocells with weirdly variable
numbers of gates (500 total).

I'm getting set up to do CPLDs again myself. Verilog is a nice change
from PALASM.

Anybody got a good feeling for the relative timing jitter of CPLDs vs.
fixed-function parts? With all those muxes and things inside, I'd
expect it might be quite a bit worse.

Is it worth resynchronizing jitter-sensitive stuff like PLLs running
from CPLDs?

Cheers

Phil

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

I can still program an ordinary GAL22V10. They're power hungry beasts so I
want some to be replaced by the low voltage version the GAL22LV10. But I
agree that both are not recommanded for new designs.

petrus bitbyter

On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:08:25 +0100, petrus bitbyter wrote:

So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?


Up until three years ago I used CUPL to compile state machines and
logic and a programmer (usb interface) I purchased off ebay for about
$60 or so.

On 4/16/2014 3:47 PM, jackbenimble wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:08:25 +0100, petrus bitbyter wrote:

So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?


Up until three years ago I used CUPL to compile state machines and
logic and a programmer (usb interface) I purchased off ebay for about
$60 or so.

Google is your friend.
Start he
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi...s/GAL/algo.htm

follow the links at the bottom of each page.

Read
Weep

Go beg/borrow/steal/buy a real programmer.
Like most DIY projects, you could get a job at minimum
wage and earn more than enough to buy a new one with much
less effort/time than it takes to build one.

Anotherlink
http://www.elm-chan.org/works/pgal/report_e.html

"mike" schreef in bericht ...

On 4/16/2014 3:47 PM, jackbenimble wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:08:25 +0100, petrus bitbyter wrote:

So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?


Up until three years ago I used CUPL to compile state machines and
logic and a programmer (usb interface) I purchased off ebay for about
$60 or so.

Google is your friend.
Start he
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi...s/GAL/algo.htm

follow the links at the bottom of each page.

Read
Weep

Go beg/borrow/steal/buy a real programmer.
Like most DIY projects, you could get a job at minimum
wage and earn more than enough to buy a new one with much
less effort/time than it takes to build one.

Anotherlink
http://www.elm-chan.org/works/pgal/report_e.html

Thanks, but I know those sites. They are about the GAL22V10, the ordinary 5V
version. I can program them already. But now I have GAL22LV10 at my hands,
the low voltage version. They cannot handle 5V so I cannot program them with
the programmers mentioned.

petrus bitbyter

On 04/29/2014 12:19 AM, petrus bitbyter wrote:


"mike" schreef in bericht ...

On 4/16/2014 3:47 PM, jackbenimble wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:08:25 +0100, petrus bitbyter wrote:

So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?


Up until three years ago I used CUPL to compile state machines and
logic and a programmer (usb interface) I purchased off ebay for about
$60 or so.

Google is your friend.
Start he
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi...s/GAL/algo.htm

follow the links at the bottom of each page.

Read
Weep

Go beg/borrow/steal/buy a real programmer.
Like most DIY projects, you could get a job at minimum
wage and earn more than enough to buy a new one with much
less effort/time than it takes to build one.

Anotherlink
http://www.elm-chan.org/works/pgal/report_e.html

Thanks, but I know those sites. They are about the GAL22V10, the
ordinary 5V version. I can program them already. But now I have
GAL22LV10 at my hands, the low voltage version. They cannot handle 5V so
I cannot program them with the programmers mentioned.

petrus bitbyter


As I understand, the programmers are pretty simple...
You could build one yourself, it is possible that you just need a bunch
of diodes&pullups to keep pport voltages from messing it up... (assuming
the protocol is the same)

I do not know of any programmers for the 3V parts (except for those
/totally/ affordable ones for 2000 euro that the usual distributors have
on their sites)

But you could modify some minimal 5V board to 3V operation...

shameless plug
https://github.com/klammerj/atfprog/tree/master/gal_min
/shameless plug

Beware, it's for 5V parts. (/you/ will need to change it)

PS:
That one was supposed to work with the GALBLAST software until I
realized that the ATF22V10C I had ordered had different protocol, so had
to come up with different software to do that... (luckily it works)

PPS:
Yes, It's an old Post I'm responding to, but my ISP was playing games
with usenet access... (finally they have unblocked the AIOE IP again,
after disabling their own usenet servers)

On 04/29/2014 12:19 AM, petrus bitbyter wrote:


"mike" schreef in bericht ...

On 4/16/2014 3:47 PM, jackbenimble wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:08:25 +0100, petrus bitbyter wrote:

So I have to program some of these older components these days and I
wonder if there is a programming algoritm out there. The datasheet
points to various programmer manufacturers but I dont like to pay
$500,- for a programmer that I need only for a few times. Anyone an
idea or a link?


Up until three years ago I used CUPL to compile state machines and
logic and a programmer (usb interface) I purchased off ebay for about
$60 or so.

Google is your friend.
Start he
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Publi...s/GAL/algo.htm

follow the links at the bottom of each page.

Read
Weep

Go beg/borrow/steal/buy a real programmer.
Like most DIY projects, you could get a job at minimum
wage and earn more than enough to buy a new one with much
less effort/time than it takes to build one.

Anotherlink
http://www.elm-chan.org/works/pgal/report_e.html

Thanks, but I know those sites. They are about the GAL22V10, the
ordinary 5V version. I can program them already. But now I have
GAL22LV10 at my hands, the low voltage version. They cannot handle 5V so
I cannot program them with the programmers mentioned.

petrus bitbyter


As I understand, the programmers are pretty simple...
You could build one yourself, it is possible that you just need a bunch
of diodes&pullups to keep pport voltages from messing it up... (assuming
the protocol is the same)

I do not know of any programmers for the 3V parts (except for those
/totally/ affordable ones for 2000 euro that the usual distributors have
on their sites)

But you could modify some minimal 5V board to 3V operation...

shameless plug
https://github.com/klammerj/atfprog/tree/master/gal_min
/shameless plug

Beware, it's for 5V parts. (/you/ will need to change it)

PS:
That one was supposed to work with the GALBLAST software until I
realized that the ATF22V10C I had ordered had different protocol, so had
to come up with different software to do that... (luckily it works)

PPS:
Yes, It's an old Post I'm responding to, but my ISP was playing games
with usenet access... (finally they have unblocked the AIOE IP again,
after disabling their own usenet servers)