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#1
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?
(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#2
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
#3
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#4
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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NE-2 I-V Curve ?? - Neon discharge0001.pdf
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson |
#5
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson --- |
#6
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:21:22 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson --- Thanks, John, that looks like a good starting point. Thinking TANH :-}, I think I can write a generalized equation where all you need to do is specify the peak and valley currents and voltages and one (or maybe 2) I,V points out on the "tail", though my gut feel is that the tail slope should intercept 0,0 until you start to smoke it. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#7
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#8
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#10
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? Hey! Don't you know, his highness has proclaimed, "Math and simulation are both crutches"? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#11
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
In article , Jim Thompson
wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) Accurate I-V curve? There is no such thing, actually, except possibly under lab conditions. To design reliable circuits, you need a handful of parameters, and the curves are useful only for the general pattern of response. Gaseous conduction devices are not at all like semiconductors in the details, although thyratrons are similar to thyristors. First is breakdown voltage. This is measured in the dark, but is lowered by UV (sunlight, fluorescent lamps, ...) If I recall, it's around 70 volts. Before breakdown, impedance is essentially infinite. After breakdown, voltage drops to a fraction of the breakdown voltage. The higher the current the lower the voltage. There is a current below which the glow will extinguish. One must remain below this current for a finite time, so all the ions have decayed or wandered away, before reapplying voltage. There is a lot of information available: ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp The standard text on the physics was "Gaseous Conductors - Theory and engineering Applications", 1941, by James Dillon Cobine. This book was available from Dover for many years. Cobine, James Dillon, Gaseous Conductors: Theory and Engineering Applications, Dover Publications, New York, 1958. paperback, xx+600 pp, 5 3/8x8. Joe Gwinn |
#12
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:25:05 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote: In article , Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) Accurate I-V curve? There is no such thing, actually, except possibly under lab conditions. To design reliable circuits, you need a handful of parameters, and the curves are useful only for the general pattern of response. Gaseous conduction devices are not at all like semiconductors in the details, although thyratrons are similar to thyristors. First is breakdown voltage. This is measured in the dark, but is lowered by UV (sunlight, fluorescent lamps, ...) If I recall, it's around 70 volts. Before breakdown, impedance is essentially infinite. After breakdown, voltage drops to a fraction of the breakdown voltage. The higher the current the lower the voltage. There is a current below which the glow will extinguish. One must remain below this current for a finite time, so all the ions have decayed or wandered away, before reapplying voltage. There is a lot of information available: ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp The standard text on the physics was "Gaseous Conductors - Theory and engineering Applications", 1941, by James Dillon Cobine. This book was available from Dover for many years. Cobine, James Dillon, Gaseous Conductors: Theory and Engineering Applications, Dover Publications, New York, 1958. paperback, xx+600 pp, 5 3/8x8. Joe Gwinn http://www.neazoi.com/technology/logic/GE-lamps.pdf |
#13
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:05:54 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? Hey! Don't you know, his highness has proclaimed, "Math and simulation are both crutches"? ...Jim Thompson --- Yup, but that's when anyone else is "crippled". When he is, though, he paint wings on those crutches. |
#14
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:44:30 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:05:54 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? Hey! Don't you know, his highness has proclaimed, "Math and simulation are both crutches"? ...Jim Thompson --- Yup, but that's when anyone else is "crippled". When he is, though, he paint wings on those crutches. :-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#15
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:25:05 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote: In article , Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) Accurate I-V curve? There is no such thing, actually, except possibly under lab conditions. That's what I need right now... get the core model right, then embellish with ambient light, etc. (I'm very aware of ambient light issues... once turned off my monster tube amplifier while I went on vacation. It was located in a dark attic... and utilized OA2's for regulating various grid potentials. When I returned and powered it up... KABOOM... electrolytic gunk everywhere :-D To design reliable circuits, you need a handful of parameters, and the curves are useful only for the general pattern of response. Gaseous conduction devices are not at all like semiconductors in the details, although thyratrons are similar to thyristors. First is breakdown voltage. This is measured in the dark, but is lowered by UV (sunlight, fluorescent lamps, ...) If I recall, it's around 70 volts. Before breakdown, impedance is essentially infinite. After breakdown, voltage drops to a fraction of the breakdown voltage. The higher the current the lower the voltage. There is a current below which the glow will extinguish. One must remain below this current for a finite time, so all the ions have decayed or wandered away, before reapplying voltage. There is a lot of information available: ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp The standard text on the physics was "Gaseous Conductors - Theory and engineering Applications", 1941, by James Dillon Cobine. This book was available from Dover for many years. Cobine, James Dillon, Gaseous Conductors: Theory and Engineering Applications, Dover Publications, New York, 1958. paperback, xx+600 pp, 5 3/8x8. Joe Gwinn ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#16
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#17
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:25:05 -0400, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) Accurate I-V curve? There is no such thing, actually, except possibly under lab conditions. To design reliable circuits, you need a handful of parameters, and the curves are useful only for the general pattern of response. Gaseous conduction devices are not at all like semiconductors in the details, although thyratrons are similar to thyristors. First is breakdown voltage. This is measured in the dark, but is lowered by UV (sunlight, fluorescent lamps, ...) If I recall, it's around 70 volts. Before breakdown, impedance is essentially infinite. After breakdown, voltage drops to a fraction of the breakdown voltage. The higher the current the lower the voltage. There is a current below which the glow will extinguish. One must remain below this current for a finite time, so all the ions have decayed or wandered away, before reapplying voltage. There is a lot of information available: ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp The standard text on the physics was "Gaseous Conductors - Theory and engineering Applications", 1941, by James Dillon Cobine. This book was available from Dover for many years. Cobine, James Dillon, Gaseous Conductors: Theory and Engineering Applications, Dover Publications, New York, 1958. paperback, xx+600 pp, 5 3/8x8. Joe Gwinn Neons are famously erratic. Local electric fields, ambient light, radiation will change the striking voltage. And they sputter away their own gas over time, eventually failing. If you build an RC relaxation oscillator with two neons in parallel, small changes in the mentioned parameters will shift the discharge from one lamp to another. LEDs are better behaved. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#18
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:05:54 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? Hey! Don't you know, his highness has proclaimed, "Math and simulation are both crutches"? ...Jim Thompson It's true. You get into all sorts of trouble simulating stuff that you don't understand. And I do mean *you*. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#19
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE_2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#20
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE-2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#21
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:13:29 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE-2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. Has nothing to do with business... this is my play period... amusing myself solving math problems for which you would not have a clue :-} You amuse yourself by being an asshole. I amuse myself with finding interesting solutions to math and engineering and simulation issues. Someday I will be remembered. You? Bwahahahahaha hah! ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#22
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:02:22 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:13:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE-2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. Has nothing to do with business... this is my play period... amusing myself solving math problems for which you would not have a clue :-} You amuse yourself by being an asshole. I amuse myself with finding interesting solutions to math and engineering and simulation issues. Someday I will be remembered. You? Bwahahahahaha hah! ...Jim Thompson I have a next generation coming along to run my company. You? -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#23
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:58:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:02:22 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:13:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE-2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. Has nothing to do with business... this is my play period... amusing myself solving math problems for which you would not have a clue :-} You amuse yourself by being an asshole. I amuse myself with finding interesting solutions to math and engineering and simulation issues. Someday I will be remembered. You? Bwahahahahaha hah! ...Jim Thompson I have a next generation coming along to run my company. You? I not only have "next", but "next-next" in the hopper. The difference is my "next" or "next-next" will be an academic... yours will be a turd :-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#24
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 19:27:30 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:58:34 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:02:22 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:13:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE-2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. Has nothing to do with business... this is my play period... amusing myself solving math problems for which you would not have a clue :-} You amuse yourself by being an asshole. I amuse myself with finding interesting solutions to math and engineering and simulation issues. Someday I will be remembered. You? Bwahahahahaha hah! ...Jim Thompson I have a next generation coming along to run my company. You? I not only have "next", but "next-next" in the hopper. The difference is my "next" or "next-next" will be an academic... yours will be a turd :-} ...Jim Thompson You're going to trust your retirement income, and your technical legacy, to an academic? That should be interesting. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#25
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. |
#26
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:12:30 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE_2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. --- The only reason you'd say that is because writing a model is beyond your ken and you pooh-pooh the effort in an attempt to make achieving the goal seem less than worthwhile instead of unattainable. JF |
#27
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:46:07 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:12:30 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:03:03 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. --- Geez... I guess that makes real-world empirical data invalid, huh? It does kind of reduce the incentive to write another NE_2 Spice model. Unless, maybe, business is very, very slow. --- The only reason you'd say that is because writing a model is beyond your ken and you pooh-pooh the effort in an attempt to make achieving the goal seem less than worthwhile instead of unattainable. JF I can write Spice models, but I don't as often as Jim does. As someone here has profoundly said, design is the opposite of analysis. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#28
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Some people, like Modelithics, are in the serious model-selling business. Email them and see if they have an NE-2 model. Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. I'm in the big time. Look at my web site. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#29
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#30
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:12:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Some people, like Modelithics, are in the serious model-selling business. Email them and see if they have an NE-2 model. --- What would that prove? --- Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. I'm in the big time. Look at my web site. --- Your web site proves nothing. Agilent is big time, Tektronix is big time, TI is big time. You're in there somewhere, but rather closer to the bottom than to the middle. |
#31
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:12:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Some people, like Modelithics, are in the serious model-selling business. Email them and see if they have an NE-2 model. --- What would that prove? --- Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. I'm in the big time. Look at my web site. --- Your web site proves nothing. Agilent is big time, Tektronix is big time, TI is big time. You're in there somewhere, but rather closer to the bottom than to the middle. |
#32
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:14:10 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component. As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice models that don't have convergence issues. What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models? (1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part (2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating. I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm at it. ...Jim Thompson So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2? --- As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume of sales of those libraries. Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big time. Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world. ...Jim Thompson Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising. People like Modelithics have tons of serious frequency and time-domain (I know!) equipment, and measure the hell out of parts before they make and verify their models. If you really want to model an NE-2, you might consider actually experimenting with some. I was just talking with a local university. They have an Agilent temperature-controlled probe station for measuring bare ICs and small packaged parts, to close the loop on fab and modeling. They don't have the capacitance module, so I think we'll buy one for them, in return for having students occasionally characterize microwave parts (diodes, transistors, MMICS) for us for time domain apps. We might meet kids who could wind up being interns and maybe employees. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation |
#33
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#34
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#35
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. He's just told you how clever he is. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com |
#36
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. He's just told you how clever he is. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com |
#37
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft. LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
#38
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft. LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
#39
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad,sci.electronics.basics
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. Wrong. You can write a monotonic equation where the variable is current (I) and the output is voltage (V). Watch this space :-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#40
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NE-2 I-V Curve ??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote: On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp? (I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-) ...Jim Thompson Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2. Cheers Phil Hobbs Unless you are clever, like me :-} Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH, with all derivatives existing and finite. In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any break-points involved. What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve. I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's point. Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on, they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage. So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior. Wrong. You can write a monotonic equation where the variable is current (I) and the output is voltage (V). Watch this space :-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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