On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:50:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

He's just told you how clever he is.

Far cleverer than you'll ever be.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:50:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

He's just told you how clever he is.

Far cleverer than you'll ever be.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:06:37 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.


If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds
slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit
memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with
a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft.

LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

LTspice (and many other Spice variants) use "IF" statements which
converge for crap.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:06:37 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.


If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds
slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit
memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with
a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft.

LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

LTspice (and many other Spice variants) use "IF" statements which
converge for crap.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 03/17/2014 06:19 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:06:37 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.


If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds
slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit
memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with
a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft.

LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

LTspice (and many other Spice variants) use "IF" statements which
converge for crap.

...Jim Thompson

Sure. But if you add them together using a switch with negative
hysteresis, you'll get the nice smooth behaviour that helps convergence.
LTspice uses arctan instead of tanh, which isn't as nice but usually
works.

Asymptotic function theory uses the idea of neutralizer functions, which
are cobbled together from erf(1/x) in the same way. They're even
better theoretically since all their derivatives go to zero at the
origin, so you can patch it to a straight horizontal line with no
discontinuity in any order. Won't matter much for SPICE.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 03/17/2014 06:19 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:06:37 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 01:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.


If you can model the off-state and on-state behaviour, then at speeds
slow compared with the recombination time, you can get by with a 1-bit
memory telling you which model to use. It's easy to patch that up with
a tanh or the equivalent to make the switch soft.

LTspice does that for you if you specify a negative hysteresis voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

LTspice (and many other Spice variants) use "IF" statements which
converge for crap.

...Jim Thompson

Sure. But if you add them together using a switch with negative
hysteresis, you'll get the nice smooth behaviour that helps convergence.
LTspice uses arctan instead of tanh, which isn't as nice but usually
works.

Asymptotic function theory uses the idea of neutralizer functions, which
are cobbled together from erf(1/x) in the same way. They're even
better theoretically since all their derivatives go to zero at the
origin, so you can patch it to a straight horizontal line with no
discontinuity in any order. Won't matter much for SPICE.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:14:10 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF

LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component.

As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice
models that don't have convergence issues.

What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models?

(1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part
(2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating.

I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm
at it.

...Jim Thompson

So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2?

---
As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and
executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume
of sales of those libraries.

Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably
keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big
time.

Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really
works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model
nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world.

...Jim Thompson

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:14:10 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF

LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component.

As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice
models that don't have convergence issues.

What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models?

(1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part
(2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating.

I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm
at it.

...Jim Thompson

So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2?

---
As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and
executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume
of sales of those libraries.

Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably
keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big
time.

Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really
works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model
nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world.

...Jim Thompson

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

---

---

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

---

---

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:03:42 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:14:10 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
m wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF

LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component.

As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice
models that don't have convergence issues.

What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models?

(1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part
(2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating.

I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm
at it.

...Jim Thompson

So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2?

---
As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and
executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume
of sales of those libraries.

Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably
keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big
time.

Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really
works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model
nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world.

...Jim Thompson

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

It's difficult because neons vary wildly in their behavior. So there
is no really good model.

But why make a big deal, and spend a lot of time, to model an NE-2?
It's not likely that anybody would care much, and LT Spice has one
already.

Feather in one's cap? Where do you get these archaic expressions?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:03:42 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:14:10 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 00:30:11 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
m wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF

LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component.

As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice
models that don't have convergence issues.

What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models?

(1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part
(2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating.

I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while I'm
at it.

...Jim Thompson

So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2?

---
As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and
executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume
of sales of those libraries.

Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably
keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big
time.

Well-executed parts, like the simple NE-2, or a 4046 that really
works, are simply advertising "teasers" to elicit requests to model
nasty systems, or modeling an OpAmp to match the real world.

...Jim Thompson

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

It's difficult because neons vary wildly in their behavior. So there
is no really good model.

But why make a big deal, and spend a lot of time, to model an NE-2?
It's not likely that anybody would care much, and LT Spice has one
already.

Feather in one's cap? Where do you get these archaic expressions?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

Missed adding, when I posted my simulation curve: Gas discharge
devices don't have hysteresis, except perhaps a very small amount in
the ionizing/quenching process (and, of course, temperature), but they
_do_ have a negative resistance region... see my other post...

Subject: NE-2 I-V Curve ??
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:47:19 -0700
Message-ID:


So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Sounds like you let LTspice mislead you with its
switches-with-hysteresis model?

Looks like there's also some confusion here about TANH curves and
TANH-based switch models. TANH-based switch models converge much
better, but have absolutely nothing to do with neon gas discharge
behavior.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

Missed adding, when I posted my simulation curve: Gas discharge
devices don't have hysteresis, except perhaps a very small amount in
the ionizing/quenching process (and, of course, temperature), but they
_do_ have a negative resistance region... see my other post...

Subject: NE-2 I-V Curve ??
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:47:19 -0700
Message-ID:


So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Sounds like you let LTspice mislead you with its
switches-with-hysteresis model?

Looks like there's also some confusion here about TANH curves and
TANH-based switch models. TANH-based switch models converge much
better, but have absolutely nothing to do with neon gas discharge
behavior.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In article ,
says...

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo

In article ,
says...

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:47:19 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

And it's amazingly, stunningly, stupidly wrong.

We'll maybe not amazingly; we have grown to expect wrong from you.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:47:19 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

And it's amazingly, stunningly, stupidly wrong.

We'll maybe not amazingly; we have grown to expect wrong from you.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:00:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:03:42 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

It's difficult because neons vary wildly in their behavior. So there
is no really good model.

---
So say you, but you provide no empirical real-world data which
supports your claim.

Instead, you parrot what you hear and proclaim it as truth because
it passes through your lips.
---

But why make a big deal, and spend a lot of time, to model an NE-2?

---
Why climb Everest?
---

It's not likely that anybody would care much, and LT Spice has one
already.

---
A perfect example of the reasoning which fosters reticence to
venture outside of your "paint by numbers" comfort zone.
---

Feather in one's cap? Where do you get these archaic expressions?

---
Tsk, tsk, tsk...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_feather_in_your_cap

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 22:57:02 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:00:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:03:42 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

It's difficult because neons vary wildly in their behavior. So there
is no really good model.

---
So say you, but you provide no empirical real-world data which
supports your claim.

Instead, you parrot what you hear and proclaim it as truth because
it passes through your lips.
---

But why make a big deal, and spend a lot of time, to model an NE-2?

---
Why climb Everest?
---

It's not likely that anybody would care much, and LT Spice has one
already.

---
A perfect example of the reasoning which fosters reticence to
venture outside of your "paint by numbers" comfort zone.
---

Feather in one's cap? Where do you get these archaic expressions?

---
Tsk, tsk, tsk...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_feather_in_your_cap


OK, you win. Who would know more about parrots and feathers than an old hen?



--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 22:57:02 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:00:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:03:42 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:52:58 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Modeling an NE-2 sounds like negative advertising.

---
If it's as difficult as you proclaim, then a good model would be
like a feather in one's cap.

It's difficult because neons vary wildly in their behavior. So there
is no really good model.

---
So say you, but you provide no empirical real-world data which
supports your claim.

Instead, you parrot what you hear and proclaim it as truth because
it passes through your lips.
---

But why make a big deal, and spend a lot of time, to model an NE-2?

---
Why climb Everest?
---

It's not likely that anybody would care much, and LT Spice has one
already.

---
A perfect example of the reasoning which fosters reticence to
venture outside of your "paint by numbers" comfort zone.
---

Feather in one's cap? Where do you get these archaic expressions?

---
Tsk, tsk, tsk...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_feather_in_your_cap


OK, you win. Who would know more about parrots and feathers than an old hen?



--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

On 18/03/2014 2:29 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:47:19 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:
On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

snip

http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

And it's amazingly, stunningly, stupidly wrong.

This is krw-level criticism. If you don't say where and how it's
stupidly wrong, you are being more than a little stupid yourself.

I can't say that I find the first part of the V/I curve - from 0 to 20uA
- to be anything like physically realistic, since there's no low voltage
way to get tiny currents through a miniature neon, but this error might
make the model more tractable.

Well maybe not amazingly; we have grown to expect wrong from you.

Not reliably, and certainly not reliably enough to justify crying
"wrong" without being specific about the nature and extent of the error.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That was just a first-pass to demonstrate the shape...
manipulation/simplification of coefficients underway.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That was just a first-pass to demonstrate the shape...
manipulation/simplification of coefficients underway.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Or get 100 volts across it without splattering glass on the floor.

That's an NE-2T, the Thompson Bulb, filled with hot air instead of the
usual neon mixture.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Or get 100 volts across it without splattering glass on the floor.

That's an NE-2T, the Thompson Bulb, filled with hot air instead of the
usual neon mixture.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 03/18/2014 11:20 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Or get 100 volts across it without splattering glass on the floor.

That's an NE-2T, the Thompson Bulb, filled with hot air instead of the
usual neon mixture.



It'll be interesting to see how small a leakage current is enough to
help LTspice, anyway. Convergence problems _are_ a huge pain.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 03/18/2014 11:20 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Or get 100 volts across it without splattering glass on the floor.

That's an NE-2T, the Thompson Bulb, filled with hot air instead of the
usual neon mixture.



It'll be interesting to see how small a leakage current is enough to
help LTspice, anyway. Convergence problems _are_ a huge pain.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:46:13 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/18/2014 11:20 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:15:27 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 03/17/2014 07:47 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:27:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:20:38 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 3/16/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Of course tanh is single-valued, unlike the I-V of a NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Unless you are clever, like me :-}

Look back over my piece-wise-linear curve-fitting posts, using TANH,
with all derivatives existing and finite.

In this particular case, as I envision it, there are not even any
break-points involved.

What I seek right now is a reasonably accurate I-V curve.

I can't tell if you're being purposely coy, or if you've missed Phil's
point.

Gas discharge devices like neon lamps have hysteresis: when they're on,
they'll conduct at a lower voltage than their turn-on voltage.

So a simple I-V curve doesn't cut it, unless you're only trying to
simulate the device in the on state, and leaving the user out to dry for
figuring out turn-on and turn-off behavior.

Oh, ye of little faith...


http://www.analog-innovations.com/NeonModeling_1_First_Pass_of_Concept.pdf

A single line equation, 91 characters long, counting every ()*/+- and
alpha-numeric... Algebraic/TANH ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Well, it's got the right number of bumps, anyway, but greatly
overestimates the current in the low-voltage region--that curve should
be in the picoamps or below until the bulb actually strikes. There's no
way you can push 20 uA through an unlit NE2.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Or get 100 volts across it without splattering glass on the floor.

That's an NE-2T, the Thompson Bulb, filled with hot air instead of the
usual neon mixture.



It'll be interesting to see how small a leakage current is enough to
help LTspice, anyway. Convergence problems _are_ a huge pain.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

John Fields scribbled thus:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:41:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:03:49 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:34:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:39:38 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Anyone have an accurate I-V curve for an NE-2 neon indicator lamp?

(I think it's time I applied TANH to it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Tubes/Neon.PDF

LT Spice already has neonbulb as a component.

As do I, recently posted here. But I'm on a "crusade" to make Spice
models that don't have convergence issues.

What are the topmost complaints we see here about Spice models?

(1) Doesn't match the behavior of the real part
(2) Won't converge, or very slow simulating.

I aim to change that, and make some money from model-making, while
I'm at it.

...Jim Thompson

So, who's going to pay you big bucks for a better model of an NE-2?

---
As part of a nice, inexpensive library of well-thought-out and
executed parts, I suspect the big bucks would result from the volume
of sales of those libraries.

Your mindset of selling a few expensive niche products probably
keeps you from seeing that, and is what'll keep you out of the big
time.

As Alan Sugar said many years ago "Stack them high & sell them cheap"...

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 02:03:58 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014

Mine's essentially the same except for parts values.

LT Spice can run fast or slow with tiny changes of values or
parameters. I have one circuit that never converges if I do a 50 us
transient analysis run, but runs instantly if I sim it for 51.

I really liked the old Dos simulator ECA. It was fast and always
converged somehow. It would occasionally say "divide by zero" or
something, but it kept going. Dumb rectangular integration or
something.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 02:03:58 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014


Hey, plug in Jim's TANH version and see how well that oscillates.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:55:59 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 02:03:58 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014

Mine's essentially the same except for parts values.

---
How about if you post what you got?

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:41:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 02:03:58 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014


Hey, plug in Jim's TANH version and see how well that oscillates.

---
We're not talking about Jim's version, we're talking about why you
seem to be having trouble with LTspice native library parts.

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:15:21 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:41:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 02:03:58 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:44:25 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


If you build the classic neon RC oscillator, it runs very slowly in LT
Spice. If you keep hitting escape, it sort of nudges it along.

---
Perhaps your 'classic' oscillator is different from mine, which
seems to work just fine:

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -272 208 -320 208
WIRE -160 208 -192 208
WIRE -48 208 -160 208
WIRE 48 208 -48 208
WIRE -48 224 -48 208
WIRE -320 240 -320 208
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -320 336 -320 320
WIRE -160 336 -160 304
WIRE -160 336 -320 336
WIRE -48 336 -48 320
WIRE -48 336 -160 336
WIRE -320 384 -320 336
FLAG -320 384 0
FLAG 48 208 OUT
SYMBOL Misc\\neonbulb -48 272 R0
WINDOW 0 40 1 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName NE1
SYMATTR Value2 Vstrike=80 Vhold=60
SYMBOL cap -176 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL voltage -320 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 44 56 Left 2
WINDOW 3 31 87 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 150
SYMBOL res -176 192 R90
WINDOW 0 -33 58 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 -32 58 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10meg
TEXT -272 360 Left 2 !.tran 0 10s 0 0.01s uic
TEXT -272 392 Left 2 ;NEON RELAXATION OSCILLATOR
TEXT -272 424 Left 2 ;JOHN FIELDS, 19 MARCH 2014


Hey, plug in Jim's TANH version and see how well that oscillates.

---
We're not talking about Jim's version, we're talking about why you
seem to be having trouble with LTspice native library parts.

Having trouble?

Sometimes LT Spice converges very slowly. It's not the parts so much as it's
Spice itself. Usually you can fiddle with sim params or values to get it to run
faster, but I haven't found a predictable way to do that.

I wish there was a min time step setting, or better yet a fixed time step
setting.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation